Isaiah 53 does not = Jesus

[abucs]

simplynoone.

You are saying that Catholics don’t look at the issues and think for themselves.

We have and we do.

We just come up with a different viewpoint than you.

Obviously what makes sense to me, does not to you, and vice versa.

But that doesn’t mean we haven’t thought long and hard about the issues.

 

[simplynoone]

simplynoone.

You are saying that Catholics don’t look at the issues and think for themselves.

We have and we do.

We just come up with a different viewpoint than you.

Obviously what makes sense to me, does not to you, and vice versa.

But that doesn’t mean we haven’t thought long and hard about the issues.

There are no grounds in the Tanakh for what the Catholic church is teaching. And no wonder! Look at all the Power in the world they possess. It certainly seems me there is a motive to keep others in the dark. I highly disagree that others have thought long and hard about what is before them. If they had, then at least they would not be settling on the power of suggestion that has been implanted by the Church.

The Church has failed miserably to maintain God’s Word and they have abused the power far too long. If you do not believe me, tell me, why is it that there is so much $$ in their hands while children are starving. It is within their power to help and the ones starving are not being silent about their suffering… the Church gets a BIG FAT “F” as the representatives of God and the proof that they were never meant to be in the first place is in the Scriptures. Jesus would be angry if he only he knew. H*ll, the world would not even listen were he speaking to them now.

 

[juliamajor]

There are no grounds in the Tanakh for what the Catholic church is teaching. And no wonder! Look at all the Power in the world they possess. It certainly seems me there is a motive to keep others in the dark. I highly disagree that others have thought long and hard about what is before them. If they had, then at least they would not be settling on the power of suggestion that has been implanted by the Church.

The Church has failed miserably to maintain God’s Word and they have abused the power far too long. If you do not believe me, tell me, why is it that there is so much $$ in their hands while children are starving. It is within their power to help and the ones starving are not being silent about their suffering… the Church gets a BIG FAT “F” as the representatives of God and the proof that they were never meant to be in the first place is in the Scriptures. Jesus would be angry if he only he knew. H*ll, the world would not even listen were he speaking to them now.

Why should I pay attention to a bigot.Everything you said is become null and void by your attitude of hatred. Have a nice day.and I have and study a Tanakh as do all Catholic scholars.

 

[simplynoone]

Why should I pay attention to a bigot.Everything you said is become null and void by your attitude of hatred. Have a nice day.and I have and study a Tanakh as do all Catholic scholars.

I guess you lack God’s approval then? Actually, I do not really believe that you have studied the Tanakh. I do believe the Church has tried as they must be desperate to maintain the control that they are losing day by day. If you were studying it, you would not see what I said as hatred, but rather GREAT concern. Again, though, perhaps you are and you just are not being truthful with your own self. Either way, your stance is proof enough for me to know that you lack knowledge.

 

[juliamajor]

I guess you lack God’s approval then? Actually, I do not really believe that you have studied the Tanakh. I do believe the Church has tried as they must be desperate to maintain the control that they are losing day by day. If you were studying it, you would not see what I said as hatred, but rather GREAT concern. Again, though, perhaps you are and you just are not being truthful with your own self. Either way, your stance is proof enough for me to know that you lack knowledge.

What are you on crack! or are you so bigoted that you can’t see past the end of your nose. your lack of knowledge about Biblical scholarship , Catholic and Christian is astounding. Biblical scholars of any import read Hebrew study Hebrew, use Hebrew texts and Aramaic targums. I use the Tanakh , and the five books of Moses and the Mishnah. I also have studied Jewish Legends and folklore and I still see your ignorance as not just mere ignorance but as evident hatred for anything and everything that doesn’t agree with your world view, which, I must say , is very narrow.
You can believe me or not on my Jewish studies , I could really care less. as far as truth goes you must look into a mirror and your own soul before criticizing someone else. Self examination is always difficult but for you it might be helpful. it least it might disabuse yourself of your self righteousness and superior theological insights that us mere mortals are incapable of.

 

[simplynoone]

What are you on crack! or are you so bigoted that you can’t see past the end of your nose.

I’ll let this one be your call. Just make sure you judge it correctly and not out of anger that I am bringing you the Truth.

your lack of knowledge about Biblical scholarship , Catholic and Christian is astounding.

Very contradictive what you have said here. Catholicism has only used power of suggestion to try and claim the rights of others. There is no basis for it with God or in His Word.

Biblical scholars of any import read Hebrew study Hebrew, use Hebrew texts and Aramaic targums. I use the Tanakh , and the five books of Moses and the Mishnah.

You do realize that the 5 books of Moses are part OF the Tanakh, correct? I only have to use the Scriptures. It is all there in front of me. Proverbs 2:1-7… I’d have to say that you can’t really argue with what I have laid out, else you would be doing so rather than trying to spout out your credentials (which fail, in all honesty)

I also have studied Jewish Legends and folklore and I still see your ignorance as not just mere ignorance but as evident hatred for anything and everything that doesn’t agree with your world view, which, I must say , is very narrow.

Funny… I support the Jewish religion… the same one Jesus did. That would be Judaism. I have a great knowledge of the christian doctrine and have found the knowledge really to be full of suggestions by man. Everything that is of importance to you could easily be seen within the Tanakh alone. Why the need for all the other sources? Do you need their approval? Do you not believe the Word of God is enough? what about the NT?

You can believe me or not on my Jewish studies , I could really care less.

I don’t

as far as truth goes you must look into a mirror and your own soul before criticizing someone else. Self examination is always difficult but for you it might be helpful. it least it might disabuse yourself of your self righteousness and superior theological insights that us mere mortals are incapable of.

What have I done that would make you think that I am need of self examination? Specific examples would be appreciated. I am willing… just make sure that you have something about me that is truly worthy of being judged in this way. I believe in total honesty before God and not covering it up with the sacrifices of the Jewish blood.

 

[juliamajor]

I’ll let this one be your call. Just make sure you judge it correctly and not out of anger that I am bringing you the Truth.

Very contradictive what you have said here. Catholicism has only used power of suggestion to try and claim the rights of others. There is no basis for it with God or in His Word.

You do realize that the 5 books of Moses are part OF the Tanakh, correct? I only have to use the Scriptures. It is all there in front of me. Proverbs 2:1-7… I’d have to say that you can’t really argue with what I have laid out, else you would be doing so rather than trying to spout out your credentials (which fail, in all honesty)

Funny… I support the Jewish religion… the same one Jesus did. That would be Judaism. I have a great knowledge of the christian doctrine and have found the knowledge really to be full of suggestions by man. Everything that is of importance to you could easily be seen within the Tanakh alone. Why the need for all the other sources? Do you need their approval? Do you not believe the Word of God is enough? what about the NT?

I don’t

What have I done that would make you think that I am need of self examination? Specific examples would be appreciated. I am willing… just make sure that you have something about me that is truly worthy of being judged in this way. I believe in total honesty before God and not covering it up with the sacrifices of the Jewish blood.

Ah, your lack of background is showing are showing. the tankh is composed of Torah, Neviim and Kethuvim. Torah is the mainstay the center the core and is often studied without the others. Torah is life and breath for the jewish people, 2nd place prophets , 3rd place Kethuvim one of the best translations of Torah(five books of moses) and part of the Shocken Bible is the translation by Everett Fox. It is a Gold standard of Torah
Power of suggestion- what hypnosis? vodoo- Hoodoo or do-do!
My dear
your truth is your truth and that is it.
It’s nice to know you have a direct line to God who tells you directly the truth
…rabbis and yeshiva students constantly argue and rehash Torah, it would be very unjewish not discuss and fight over Torah.2 jews arguing over Torah equals three arguments… torah is supposed to be fresh for each generation. Not as frozen as you seem to believe. so all your proclaiming of Judaism seems to have forgotten one very important aspect of Judaism. Oral Torah. same time Torah was given on Mt Sinai(Horeb) Oral Torah was also given. so Jewish scholars just don’t rely on Torah or, Neviim ,or kethuvim but on Oral torah as a way to interpret. So Scripture according to Judaism is not enough. They rely on Talmud and on Oral torah (Tradition). so Tanakh is not Good enough.Jewish scholarship is not as simplistic as you believe.it is complex and they rely on their Spiritual fathers and what they have said about Torah just as Christians do

 

[abucs]

Look at all the Power in the world they possess. It certainly seems me there is a motive to keep others in the dark. I highly disagree that others have thought long and hard about what is before them. If they had, then at least they would not be settling on the power of suggestion that has been implanted by the Church.

The Church has failed miserably to maintain God’s Word and they have abused the power far too long. If you do not believe me, tell me, why is it that there is so much $$ in their hands while children are starving. It is within their power to help and the ones starving are not being silent about their suffering… the Church gets a BIG FAT “F” as the representatives of God and the proof that they were never meant to be in the first place is in the Scriptures. Jesus would be angry if he only he knew. H*ll, the world would not even listen were he speaking to them now.

Well i disagree with all of that simplynoone, but to repudiate it point by point would be getting even further off topic.

Getting back to Jesus and the Messiah. It says that the Messiah will bring knowledge of God throughout the whole world.

Well, it’s been done. From Nigeria to Siberia, from Newfoundland to Ireland, from Peru to Cebu, from Brazil to Australia. Every week people in their hundred of millions are gathering to discuss Noah and Adam and Eve and Moses and Abraham and Lot and Samuel and Saul and David and all of the Jewish history involving G-d.

You can’t bring knowledge of something to people when they already have it. i can’t bring pythagoras’ theorem to the world, or laptop computers, because it’s already been done.

Likewise for making G-d known throughout the world. It’s been done (fulfilled).
Perhaps not in the way you recognise. But it’s been done.

 

[simplynoone]

Ah, your lack of background is showing are showing. the tankh is composed of Torah, Neviim and Kethuvim. Torah is the mainstay the center the core and is often studied without the others. Torah is life and breath for the jewish people, 2nd place prophets , 3rd place Kethuvim one of the best translations of Torah(five books of moses) and part of the Shocken Bible is the translation by Everett Fox. It is a Gold standard of Torah
Power of suggestion- what hypnosis? vodoo- Hoodoo or do-do!
My dear
your truth is your truth and that is it.
It’s nice to know you have a direct line to God who tells you directly the truth
…rabbis and yeshiva students constantly argue and rehash Torah, it would be very unjewish not discuss and fight over Torah.2 jews arguing over Torah equals three arguments… torah is supposed to be fresh for each generation. Not as frozen as you seem to believe. so all your proclaiming of Judaism seems to have forgotten one very important aspect of Judaism. Oral Torah. same time Torah was given on Mt Sinai(Horeb) Oral Torah was also given. so Jewish scholars just don’t rely on Torah or, Neviim ,or kethuvim but on Oral torah as a way to interpret. So Scripture according to Judaism is not enough. They rely on Talmud and on Oral torah (Tradition). so Tanakh is not Good enough.Jewish scholarship is not as simplistic as you believe.it is complex and they rely on their Spiritual fathers and what they have said about Torah just as Christians do

Proverbs 2:1-7. I have only shown that I get my teaching from the mouth of God and that I am spot on thus far. You are correct, I do not lean on the Talmud. I have found it interesting, sure… but all I have needed to receive understanding and knowledge is the willingness, the obedience, and the Hebrew Scriptures… what you want to spout off is merely lip service to God and the Chosen People and yet, you are fully unaware that the disguise of Christianity is slowly being pulled away.

What can you show me within the Tanakh that says Jesus IS declared as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53? Show me where he is declared and I’ll start listening to you as though you have a clue.

 

[simplynoone]

Well i disagree with all of that simplynoone, but to repudiate it point by point would be getting even further off topic.

Getting back to Jesus and the Messiah. It says that the Messiah will bring knowledge of God throughout the whole world.

Well, it’s been done. From Nigeria to Siberia, from Newfoundland to Ireland, from Peru to Cebu, from Brazil to Australia. Every week people in their hundred of millions are gathering to discuss Noah and Adam and Eve and Moses and Abraham and Lot and Samuel and Saul and David and all of the Jewish history involving G-d.

You can’t bring knowledge of something to people when they already have it. i can’t bring pythagoras’ theorem to the world, or laptop computers, because it’s already been done.

Likewise for making G-d known throughout the world. It’s been done (fulfilled).
Perhaps not in the way you recognise. But it’s been done.

Are you kidding me? This is a joke right? KNOWLEDGE IS NOT FOUND JUST IN THE WORDS! This is TRULY a spiritual book for a spiritual People (that is not to undermine the blood factor, but that blood is the blood that actually has LIFE in it and Jesus was not the only with that blood… and the Church has known this which is why they have spilled so much of it and parade around on a cross the image of a Jewish man as their trophy. SICK!). The Church has not given you knowledge. They have helped to keep the knowledge hidden, even from the very People of God. Here is the thing though, it has been written the end from the beginning and thus, that knowledge was bound to be exposed at some point in time. Well, this IS that time! You all are JUST NOW getting the knowledge; and the words “and the world knew him not” become a reality.

Listen really carefully to what I am saying. The fact that we even have the beginning intact and the means to understand it correctly is NOT thanks to the Church… it is thanks to the Jewish People. The fact that we are even still here to obey Proverbs 2 and receive that promise is NOT thanks to the Church, it is thanks to the Jewish People. The Church is not God’s messenger. The Church is not the Chosen. The Church is the one spouting off with lip service and from the looks of it, the Church is getting nervous and so they bring in men who claim to be former Rabbi’s to try to deceive even further and yet, they are not bringing you knowledge and understanding. They are STILL bringing you deception to try to keep you from the Truth.

Listen to the teachings of the Church and it is clear what the curse in Jeremiah 17:5 is. You can find it in Malachi 4. It is true… nothing is hidden from before your eyes, it is only a matter of whether you have the right eyes to see it or not.

 

[juliamajor]

Proverbs 2:1-7. I have only shown that I get my teaching from the mouth of God and that I am spot on thus far. You are correct, I do not lean on the Talmud. I have found it interesting, sure… but all I have needed to receive understanding and knowledge is the willingness, the obedience, and the Hebrew Scriptures… what you want to spout off is merely lip service to God and the Chosen People and yet, you are fully unaware that the disguise of Christianity is slowly being pulled away.

What can you show me within the Tanakh that says Jesus IS declared as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53? Show me where he is declared and I’ll start listening to you as though you have a clue.

You are getting the teaching from the mouth of God are you a 'nabi"?Do you speak for God?I’m sure He’ll be glad to know there is a new prophet in town.
Your pseudo-Jewish /Christian thing ain’t working pal.So you don’t rely on the Talmud or great teachers like Rashi,Rashbom,ibn Ezra,Meir,Akiva etc.they were mere amateurs next to you? I’m sure The Jewish community well thank you for voicing the opinion That talmud and rabbinic insights are mere 'Lip service".
I don’t know if your not listening or what as someone stated before Catholic theology toward bible typology is not either/or but both and.Suffering Servant is Israel but if your reading scripture in the Light of Christ, it’s also Jesus.Writers of any kind don’t always realize that what they say may mean something completely different, or more expansive then they have written.That’s plain literature101.And if you don’t want someone contradicting the Prophet simplynoone , then don’t post.

 

[simplynoone]

You are getting the teaching from the mouth of God are you a 'nabi"?Do you speak for God?I’m sure He’ll be glad to know there is a new prophet in town.

I am only speaking what is written in the words of THE Word of God. It seems foreign to you, doesn’t it? See, having every line of the Talmud memorized or even every line of the Torah memorized does not give you understanding.

The fact that you think that a Jewish man was God and could be used as a blood sacrifice on a cross to cover your sins only goes to show how truly ignorant the followers of the Church in regards to the Torah since there is not a place there where you will find such a thing is allowed for. In fact, you will see the opposite written.

Your pseudo-Jewish /Christian thing ain’t working pal.

Christianity is not one and the same with Judaism. There is the faith of the blind and then there is the faith of the Chosen of God. The faith of Jesus was Judaism, not Christianity. Christianity is the faith of Paul… a covenant made with death. Isaiah 28. So, what you have said here only further shows your ignorance of the faith of Jesus, Judaism.

So you don’t rely on the Talmud or great teachers like Rashi,Rashbom,ibn Ezra,Meir,Akiva etc.they were mere amateurs next to you? I’m sure The Jewish community well thank you for voicing the opinion That talmud and rabbinic insights are mere 'Lip service".

Suprisingly, I have not had any opposition by the Jewish I have met. In fact, I have been well received by the kind individuals who I have been blessed enough to know. They have much Wisdom to share about their faith with me and rather than them being the ones to thank me, I am the one who is deeply grateful for keeping the foundation as is so that I had a place to run to for the answers that I was not receiving from Christianity. It was not the Greek name “christ” that God set as a name for us to go to; it was Judah’s name… you will find that in the blessings of Israel (Genesis 49). Thus, I know without a doubt that Judaism is the faith of Jesus… not Christianity. My proof is in the Hebrew Scriptures. Your proof for Christianity is found in Greek mythology. Though, I have said to you already, if you can show me where Jesus is declared as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53, then I will listen to you. Isaiah was clear that it would be found in the beginning. I’m open!

I don’t know if your not listening or what as someone stated before Catholic theology toward bible typology is not either/or but both and.Suffering Servant is Israel but if your reading scripture in the Light of Christ, it’s also Jesus.Writers of any kind don’t always realize that what they say may mean something completely different, or more expansive then they have written.That’s plain literature101.And if you don’t want someone contradicting the Prophet simplynoone , then don’t post.

Again, I am not contradicting the Word of God. Let me ask you, what do you know, if anything, about king David? It was his seed that was promised to remain on the eternal throne of Israel. You have not even realized that Christianity is the opposing “spirit” to the seed of David. It blatantly is laid out in the Tanakh. David had sex with another man’s wife and when she became pregnant, he KILLED her husband to cover his sins. The spirit of David, that being his seed, was in learning that this is NOT God’s way… and so he humbled himself before God in true repentance. That means, he quit covering his own self and admited his wrong before God… and all without being REALLY sure if God would forgive him. He threw himself AS HE WAS on the hope that God would accept him back. He did it because to be without God is death to the soul that actually came FROM God and anything less than being able to stand before God as is will never be good enough. THAT is the spirit of David… and that is the heart of Israel.

I think you only want me to quit posting because I am not just claiming to know, but I actually DO know. You know why that is? Because the atonement spoken of by Christianity still left my soul cut off from the Truth. Being guilt free through denial will never be good enough. I’ll take the overwhelming guilt and accept the chastisement any day over glorying in the death of the People that have given so much to the world.

 

[juliamajor]

Are you kidding me? This is a joke right? KNOWLEDGE IS NOT FOUND JUST IN THE WORDS! This is TRULY a spiritual book for a spiritual People (that is not to undermine the blood factor, but that blood is the blood that actually has LIFE in it and Jesus was not the only with that blood… and the Church has known this which is why they have spilled so much of it and parade around on a cross the image of a Jewish man as their trophy. SICK!). The Church has not given you knowledge. They have helped to keep the knowledge hidden, even from the very People of God. Here is the thing though, it has been written the end from the beginning and thus, that knowledge was bound to be exposed at some point in time. Well, this IS that time! You all are JUST NOW getting the knowledge; and the words “and the world knew him not” become a reality.

Listen really carefully to what I am saying. The fact that we even have the beginning intact and the means to understand it correctly is NOT thanks to the Church… it is thanks to the Jewish People. The fact that we are even still here to obey Proverbs 2 and receive that promise is NOT thanks to the Church, it is thanks to the Jewish People. The Church is not God’s messenger. The Church is not the Chosen. The Church is the one spouting off with lip service and from the looks of it, the Church is getting nervous and so they bring in men who claim to be former Rabbi’s to try to deceive even further and yet, they are not bringing you knowledge and understanding. They are STILL bringing you deception to try to keep you from the Truth.

Listen to the teachings of the Church and it is clear what the curse in Jeremiah 17:5 is. You can find it in Malachi 4. It is true… nothing is hidden from before your eyes, it is only a matter of whether you have the right eyes to see it or not.

Knowledge is not just found in the Words- so true . But my dear fellow you contradict yourself. you keep telling us the words in scripture are self evident.Well as the Jewish Community knows they are not. Words of the rabbis and sages, Talmud , oral Torah you’ve rejected.!
Jeremiah 17:5 is about a coming famine(or so the Tankh commentary says) are you saying that the scripture has many layers and what is written is not the only meaning?That the author himself may not have been aware of what he was saying!My, my. That’s understanding literature 102. what you read is not the only thing you get!
The rest of your post is hate-mongering, vomitous ,poison spewing,incoherent ramblings of a bigot.
So you can be a pretend pseudo Jew or prophet or whatever you think you are. But if you don’t want opposition to your self indulgent , self important little temper tantrum then don’t post- It’s all very simple! ciao

 

[simplynoone]

Knowledge is not just found in the Words- so true . But my dear fellow you contradict yourself. you keep telling us the words in scripture are self evident.Well as the Jewish Community knows they are not. Words of the rabbis and sages, Talmud , oral Torah you’ve rejected.!
Jeremiah 17:5 is about a coming famine(or so the Tankh commentary says) are you saying that the scripture has many layers and what is written is not the only meaning?That the author himself may not have been aware of what he was saying!My, my. That’s understanding literature 102. what you read is not the only thing you get!
The rest of your post is hate-mongering, vomitous ,poison spewing,incoherent ramblings of a bigot.
So you can be a pretend pseudo Jew or prophet or whatever you think you are. But if you don’t want opposition to your self indulgent , self important little temper tantrum then don’t post- It’s all very simple! ciao

I have not called myself a prophet… those are your words, not mine (by the way, it would be prophetess in my case). I am just sharing the Truth and asking for you to show the proof of your truth as I have been for mine.

And yes, what I am saying is that the Tanakh is Divinely inspired and has MANY layers. You will NOT find another like it. Isaiah says clearly that we do not have to consider the things of old because God is creating a new thing. This means that these things are being created NOW and not then.

That famine along with the waiting around on the Church’s gods to light the fire… well, it has been playing out for a very long time. Malachi 4 speaks clearly of it as well and we were given the promise in Malachi 3:6 that God does not change. That is for our benefit. That has been my hope and the rock that I found rest on. Now, I am just obeying the command given… to make straight the paths of God. It does not take a prophet or one born under the title of Jew to do such. The Jewish have kept the Word of God intact… they have succeeded where the Church failed.

It is all written there in front of us to obey. I just chose to actually do it; that is, search for the Truth no matter the cost. How is this considered wrong? Nothing I have said opposes what is in the Scriptures. That is the Church who contradicts, not me. Now, again, show me where in the Scriptures it declares that Jesus is the Suffering Servant. Isaiah says that God declared it and that His counsel SHALL stand.

 

[juliamajor]

I have not called myself a prophet… those are your words, not mine (by the way, it would be prophetess in my case). I am just sharing the Truth and asking for you to show the proof of your truth as I have been for mine.

And yes, what I am saying is that the Tanakh is Divinely inspired and has MANY layers. You will NOT find another like it. Isaiah says clearly that we do not have to consider the things of old because God is creating a new thing. This means that these things are being created NOW and not then.

That famine along with the waiting around on the Church’s gods to light the fire… well, it has been playing out for a very long time. Malachi 4 speaks clearly of it as well and we were given the promise in Malachi 3:6 that God does not change. That is for our benefit. That has been my hope and the rock that I found rest on. Now, I am just obeying the command given… to make straight the paths of God. It does not take a prophet or one born under the title of Jew to do such. The Jewish have kept the Word of God intact… they have succeeded where the Church failed.

It is all written there in front of us to obey. I just chose to actually do it; that is, search for the Truth no matter the cost. How is this considered wrong? Nothing I have said opposes what is in the Scriptures. That is the Church who contradicts, not me. Now, again, show me where in the Scriptures it declares that Jesus is the Suffering Servant. Isaiah says that God declared it and that His counsel SHALL stand.

For someone who says they’ve found the truth - you’re not very happy and it’s incredibly arrogant to assume that others aren’t seeking and don’t know or can’t find because they are-1. too dumb, 2. Brainwashed,3. arrogant, 4.wicked. That’s a heck of an assumption and a kind of spiritual self-righteousness and pomposity that really galls me.People who assume that only they are righteous or they only have really got the true answer are really insecure in what they believe or who they are. Then they blame their past sins or past inadequacies on a whipping boy, because they need to justify their hatred or their bigotry.
Many folks have attempted to enlighten you but apparently you don’t want to hear or be confronted on what you believe or say you believe you know.
Christians view prophecy and scripture in the light of Christ. as a Jew or muslim sees his scripture in light of their traditions. that’s just human nature. Or views the world for that matter- we see it in the light of beliefs, traditions and family attitudes.Of course the jewish community wouldn’t see Isaiah in the same light but many did because the first Christians were Jews.So to claim all Jews see Isaiah in a certain way is simply not historically correct.A prophecy does not have to be either/or but is often and frequently both/ and. Servant is both Israel and Jesus we see no contradiction.
Hold fast to your bitterness and justify it all you want.But God is not so narrow as you think He is to give you exclusive rights and knowledge of Him.Your God is too small as is your view of Him I hope you find peace because you certainly are without it now.

 

[simplynoone]

For someone who says they’ve found the truth - you’re not very happy and it’s incredibly arrogant to assume that others aren’t seeking and don’t know or can’t find because they are-1. too dumb, 2. Brainwashed,3. arrogant, 4.wicked. That’s a heck of an assumption and a kind of spiritual self-righteousness and pomposity that really galls me.

These are your words, not mine. I have asked you repeatedly to please show me where in the Hebrew Scriptures it declares that Jesus is the Suffering Servant. Instead of giving me an answer, you seem to be getting upset. No need to be offended… just show me what it is that proves Jesus is the Suffering Servant. I have given plenty of evidences to show that it is Israel.

People who assume that only they are righteous or they only have really got the true answer are really insecure in what they believe or who they are. Then they blame their past sins or past inadequacies on a whipping boy, because they need to justify their hatred or their bigotry.

Here is the odd thing about what you said above. Christianity is based on a whipping boy… and a Jewish whipping boy no less. I shunned that. Trust me, Jesus did NOT come to stand in my place to receive all the things that I have gone through. That was me. Instead of hiding behind a whipping boy, I chose to accept whatever it was that I deserved… whatever chastisements, anything. So, again, odd thing you are accusing me of with your above statement.

Many folks have attempted to enlighten you but apparently you don’t want to hear or be confronted on what you believe or say you believe you know.

No one has yet to show me where it is that Jesus is declared in the Hebrew Scriptures as the suffering servant. I have, however, given references to show that it is the People of Israel.

Christians view prophecy and scripture in the light of Christ. as a Jew or muslim sees his scripture in light of their traditions. that’s just human nature.

So, human nature is to replace the People of Israel with the Church and mock them by parading around a Jew on a cross as the symbol of victory? That is not my human nature. I do not believe that is the human nature of everyone.

Of course the jewish community wouldn’t see Isaiah in the same light but many did because the first Christians were Jews.

Paul did, yes… but that is because Paul was looking to gain from the enlightenment of what Jesus came to do for his own people and when he abandoned Judaism, he was no longer Jewish. Actually, many of the Jewish were quite annoyed with Paul and thus, he sold out his own people to the hands of the Gentiles. Matthew confirms this to be true.

And that the Jewish who have maintained their trust in God only as their Saviour despite the abuses of the Church, I do not even have the adequate words to express my gratefulness. Judaism was the faith of Jesus and the Jews have done well to maintain it at all costs.

So to claim all Jews see Isaiah in a certain way is simply not historically correct.A prophecy does not have to be either/or but is often and frequently both/ and. Servant is both Israel and Jesus we see no contradiction.
Hold fast to your bitterness and justify it all you want.But God is not so narrow as you think He is to give you exclusive rights and knowledge of Him.Your God is too small as is your view of Him I hope you find peace because you certainly are without it now.

I did not claim that all Jewish view Isaiah the same way, but they certainly do not see it the way that Christians do… the Christians have taken a Jewish prophecy about their Messiah, crucified one of their own and used it to claim what belongs to the Jewish People.

Remember, Elijah allowed plenty of time for the pagan gods to answer the call from their worshipers before he called on his God to prove Himself… 2,000 years seems like a pretty amount of time to have waited for the church to prove that Jesus sold out his own people, no? I am just going with the more obvious conclusion here. Malachi 4

 

[Luke65]

simplynoone, you have been shown many proofs that the Suffering Servant can’t be Israel, including the fact that the Jews themselves never said this Servant was Israel until long after Christ. And I’m not sure if anyone pointed this out, but there was a tradition that there would be two Messiahs - the triumphant Messiah, and the suffering Messiah - the son of David (Messiah ben David), and the son of Joseph (Messiah ben Joseph), respectively. And you can find much info on that. But, of course, Jesus Christ is both.

But I will add another proof for this which I think has been overlooked here. You say that the nation (or people) of Israel is the servant in Isaiah 49, and that’s your first mistake. How can Israel bring Israel back to God (v.5)? Even Rashi says “Israel” is Isaiah at this point. But of course this is Jesus Christ. And to prove this, look at what Isaiah tells us right before he gets to the Suffering Servant:

“Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, ‘Here I am.’” (Isaiah 52:6)

Do you know what that means? “Here I am” is what God’s servants say when He calls them…

"God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” (Genesis 22:1)

"God spoke to Israel in visions of the night and said, “Jacob, Jacob.” And he said, “Here I am.” (Genesis 46:2)

"God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” (Exodus 3:4)

And so, God is saying that God Himself will become the Servant - the Servant that prospers but first suffers. And His Name is Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh - the Son of God. But as Isaiah prophesied:

“Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” (Isaiah 53:1)

And Jesus gave the answer:

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22)

And don’t forget:

“Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!” (Proverbs 30:4)

Jesus!

 

[simplynoone]

simplynoone, you have been shown many proofs that the Suffering Servant can’t be Israel, including the fact that the Jews themselves never said this Servant was Israel until long after Christ. And I’m not sure if anyone pointed this out, but there was a tradition that there would be two Messiahs - the triumphant Messiah, and the suffering Messiah - the son of David (Messiah ben David), and the son of Joseph (Messiah ben Joseph), respectively. And you can find much info on that. But, of course, Jesus Christ is both.

I have not been shown anything that shows within the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus is the suffering servant.

By the way Messiah ben David is the house of Judah and Messiah ben Joseph is the house of Israel. According to the Church, Jesus was born of a Virgin thus making Jesus NOT from the house of Judah, since that was the line of Joseph. So, no, Jesus does not even fit that discription. Besides, it IS Israel that is declared as the Suffering Servant. Perhaps a better understanding of the Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David would enlighten you on why this is. Jeremiah 31 is clear how the “sacrifice” for the sins of the Nation (notice… SINGULAR) would play out… not by one man dying, but by the spreading of the seed into the other nations of the world. Why is this ignored?

But I will add another proof for this which I think has been overlooked here. You say that the nation (or people) of Israel is the servant in Isaiah 49, and that’s your first mistake. How can Israel bring Israel back to God (v.5)? Even Rashi says “Israel” is Isaiah at this point. But of course this is Jesus Christ. And to prove this, look at what Isaiah tells us right before he gets to the Suffering Servant:

“Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, ‘Here I am.’” (Isaiah 52:6)

Do you know what that means? “Here I am” is what God’s servants say when He calls them…

"God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” (Genesis 22:1)

"God spoke to Israel in visions of the night and said, “Jacob, Jacob.” And he said, “Here I am.” (Genesis 46:2)

"God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” (Exodus 3:4)

Yes, an this has nothing to do with those who have used the blood of the Jewish to cover their sins. Again, refer to Jeremiah 31. The Jewish are those of the same faith of Jesus… that is Judaism. It was the blessing given by Israel (Jacob) that JUDAH was the name the brothers would be gathered to. This is found in Genesis 49.

Now, here is where it gets interesting. In Genesis 48 is the prophetic explanation of how the seed of Israel would be gathered. The seed of Manasseh, that being the younger of the two would be the first to join to the house of Judah (Judaism)… most likely about the time that Jesus’ mother had joined to the house of Judah (I tend to think of it allegorically, but no doubt, this happened) thus, yes, I do believe that Jesus would be Jewish and the “one” to have confirmed Judaism.

That was the first joining as prophesied. Now, from my understanding, Judah and Israel’s combined seed went out into the world and THIS would be the second gathering… the one that was blessed in Ephraim. It is the 2nd Israel that would carry the seed of David (spiritually as well, having learned the important lesson that cover sins by the sacrifices to false gods has SERIOUS repercussions) and who is it that they join to? WHY… the Jewish People… Judaism as was prosephied in Gen. 49.

Christianity is the stiffnecked of Israel in my guess based on the Word in Ezekiel. The ones who refused to listen and repent, but rather clinged to the blood of their own people… yes, the ones who killed their own.

Eh, it at least is more consistent with the whole of the Tanakh than is Christianity. Remember… it is TO JUDAH that it is clearly prophesied the Chosen would gather back to. And this is becoming more apparent… I have been surprised at the messages I am receiving and the sudden interest in my own family concerning Judaism. I thought they would reject me and it has been anything but rejection, but more of inquiry of fascination… and mind you, my family has been hard core Christianity for my whole life (I was the odd ball in that I could not feel comfortable with it).

See, when I view it from the Hebrew Scriptures, I am fascinated because I can see these things happening before my eyes and more and more are testifying to this as well.

 

[simplynoone]

And so, God is saying that God Himself will become the Servant - the Servant that prospers but first suffers. And His Name is Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh - the Son of God. But as Isaiah prophesied:

“Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” (Isaiah 53:1)

And Jesus gave the answer:

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22)

And who was it that Jacob said the brothers would be gathered to? What name is that? Looks like it is being revealed to whom it is meant to be revealed to. I did not see that Jacob prophesied over a Christ let alone prophesy that the brothers would be gathered to him. That is a covenant between Paul and the Christians.

Isaiah 53:1 by the way is not speaking of the Gentiles if that is who you are trying to refer to. It is speaking to those who are part of the Chosen. It’ll come. This is MY FAITH based on knowledge that it is being revealed.

And don’t forget:

“Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!” (Proverbs 30:4)

Jesus!

GOD! and the name of His Son is Israel!! Exodus 4:22,23 Hosea 11:1 (what’s my prize for being right?)

 

[Luke65]

By the way Messiah ben David is the house of Judah and Messiah ben Joseph is the house of Israel. According to the Church, Jesus was born of a Virgin thus making Jesus NOT from the house of Judah, since that was the line of Joseph. So, no, Jesus does not even fit that discription.

The Bible never says that a Messiah will come from Joseph - that is a “tradition”. And a prophetic one at that - Jesus was from the literal house of Joseph! And, btw, Mary is a descendant of King David - the Jews never denied this.

Besides, it IS Israel that is declared as the Suffering Servant.

False. Isaiah makes no mention of Israel in the Suffering Servant passage. And, again, the Jews never interpreted it that way until long after Christ fulfilled the prophecy. But please, keep ignoring that point.

Jeremiah 31 is clear how the “sacrifice” for the sins of the Nation (notice… SINGULAR) would play out… not by one man dying, but by the spreading of the seed into the other nations of the world. Why is this ignored?

Because its not there? Where is it?

Yes, an this has nothing to do with those who have used the blood of the Jewish to cover their sins. Again, refer to Jeremiah 31. The Jewish are those of the same faith of Jesus… that is Judaism. It was the blessing given by Israel (Jacob) that JUDAH was the name the brothers would be gathered to. This is found in Genesis 49.

It doesn’t say that.

Now, here is where it gets interesting. In Genesis 48 is the prophetic explanation of how the seed of Israel would be gathered. The seed of Manasseh, that being the younger of the two would be the first to join to the house of Judah (Judaism)… most likely about the time that Jesus’ mother had joined to the house of Judah (I tend to think of it allegorically, but no doubt, this happened) thus, yes, I do believe that Jesus would be Jewish and the “one” to have confirmed Judaism.

It says none of those things. You’re wasting my time. Show your proof!

Christianity is the stiffnecked of Israel in my guess based on the Word in Ezekiel. The ones who refused to listen and repent, but rather clinged to the blood of their own people… yes, the ones who killed their own.

That’s odd, God said Israel was stiff-necked, not the Gentiles. And He continually talked about saving a “remnant” of Israel. So why should we be surprised that only a remnant became Christian?

Eh, it at least is more consistent with the whole of the Tanakh than is Christianity. Remember… it is TO JUDAH that it is clearly prophesied the Chosen would gather back to.

Where?

“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.” (Jeremiah 31:31)

I have been surprised at the messages I am receiving and the sudden interest in my own family concerning Judaism. I thought they would reject me and it has been anything but rejection, but more of inquiry of fascination… and mind you, my family has been hard core Christianity for my whole life (I was the odd ball in that I could not feel comfortable with it).

Don’t be surprised. Its all been foretold.

And who was it that Jacob said the brothers would be gathered to? What name is that? Looks like it is being revealed to whom it is meant to be revealed to.

It still doesn’t say that.

I did not see that Jacob prophesied over a Christ let alone prophesy that the brothers would be gathered to him. That is a covenant between Paul and the Christians.

Strange, because that is what it says!

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.” (Genesis 49:10)

Christ the King!

Isaiah 53:1 by the way is not speaking of the Gentiles if that is who you are trying to refer to. It is speaking to those who are part of the Chosen. It’ll come. This is MY FAITH based on knowledge that it is being revealed.

Your “faith” based on nothing. Isaiah did not limit who he was talking about in any way. Its all who hear the truth - the Gospel of Jesus Christ - and believe or don’t believe.

GOD! and the name of His Son is Israel!! Exodus 4:22,23 Hosea 11:1 (what’s my prize for being right?)

Right, that’s why Solomon didn’t know His Name! There are none so blind as those who will not see.

And of course, in all you wrote you ignored the main point that I made: God foretold that He Himself would be the Servant who says, “Here I AM!”