Isaiah 60

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Victor_Zaiz

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So I’m discussing The Church with some friends who believed that the true church had fallen away at 325 AD, I went into detail on how that is not the case, but they brought up a chapter in the Old Testament and stated that the Arise shine that is in the first verse in the chapter, is referring to the church after falling into darkness after 325 AD. I was very skeptical about that because I researched a lot about the Nicene Creed. I always thought that this chapter is prophesying the Resurrection of Christ. I am wrong? Or is this chapter referring to something else?
 
You should find something better to do with your time. You can spend the rest of your life in this discussion but you will never convince your friends. Learn the guitar instead.
 
Tim_D said:
You should find something better to do with your time. You can spend the rest of your life in this discussion but you will never convince your friends. Learn the guitar instead.
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Point out that no matter what anything says, even in the Bible it cannot contradict what Christ said, and He said that nothing will ever prevail against His Church. The rest of the Bible can only compliment that, not contradict it so their interpretation is wrong.

Also, you are not gonna win this argument. Take it from a guy that has been at odds with everyone, even his entire family, since he converted over 10 years ago. Tim has it right, you’d be better off saying what you have to say and then leaving it alone. Any further discussion is futile, will only dishearten yourself and will not change their minds.
 
I think this prophecy has had and will have multiple fulfillments to one degree or another, including the end of the Babylonian captivity and construction of the Second Temple, Christ’s first coming, the conversion of the first Gentiles to Christianity, the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and Christ’s second coming at the end of the world. Only at Christ’s second coming at the end of the world will this prophecy be completely fulfilled.

One cannot help but notice the similarly between the gifts of gold and frankincense mentioned in Isaiah 60:6 and the gifts of gold and frankincense mentioned in Matthew 2:11.
 
Victor_Zaiz said:
So I’m discussing The Church with some friends who believed that the true church had fallen away at 325 AD, I went into detail on how that is not the case, but they brought up a chapter in the Old Testament and stated that the Arise shine that is in the first verse in the chapter, is referring to the church after falling into darkness after 325 AD. I was very skeptical about that because I researched a lot about the Nicene Creed. I always thought that this chapter is prophesying the Resurrection of Christ. I am wrong? Or is this chapter referring to something else?
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Hi, Victor!

…have you heard that the OT cannot be read but must be removed from the Bible because it leads to witchcraft? …yep, that’s one of those “enlightened” prophet’s teachings… and did you know that the Scriptures (OT) hold the truth about “the truth is out there?” …yep, some have *discovered *ETs in the OT Writings; …and, there’s at least one religious group that teaches that there was a bad/vengeful God in the OT that’s different from the Merciful/Good God of the NT…

…interpretations are a dime a million…

Isaiah 60:1, 2
A Light Shines on the World: Jesus, the Messiah, the Immanuel, the Lamb of God (St. John 1:1-14; Isaiah 7:14; 9:1-7)

Isaiah 60:3
Nations and kings come to the Light: Jesus is the Light (St. John 8:12; Philippians 2:9-11; St. Matthew 2:1-12)

Isaiah 60:4
All will come to you: Israel returns to the mother land–though I’ve never made any research on this, it is possible that Scriptures are placing this mass gathering as that of a census (St. Luke 2:1-3); it seems logical, to me, that those of Jewish roots would take advantage of the forced census to visit the Temple so the mass exodus could be augmented by religious fervor (even if brought about by opportunity).

…as with other prophecies, there are portions that extend to the Coming of the Messiah while other parts relate to the direct timeline of the prophet/Israel.

…of course, to those who want to claim a failed Church (to give their denomination some sort of authenticity) not even Christ’s Word would change their minds and hearts:
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it
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. (St. Matthew 16:18)

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. (St. John 14:16-17)

and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (St. Matthew 28:20b)
…so was Jesus wrong?

If we are to accept any of the nonsense about a failed Church, we must believe the creatures rather than the Creator; the apostasy of the Church, at any time, necessitates that Jesus was wrong and that both He and the Holy Spirit failed the Promise Jesus made!

…as St. Peter asked, should we listen to man or to God?

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel
 
First, advise them that you do not doubt their love of Christ. That is a good foundation.

That being said, ask them point blank: “What do you not understand about Jesus founding a Church and teaching that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?” (Matthew 16:18) Then, remain silent and wait for a response. Politely advise them that their position makes Jesus a liar. Period. It is pure dispensationalist/fundamentalist/evangelical/ anti-Catholic nonsense. Mormon or Jack Chick† caliber stuff.

Ask them by what authority they interpret scripture. Take out your pocket New Testament and read 2 Peter 3:16 to them.

And, maybe mention that, since we have Christ’s promise that His Church will prevail, who then is the false prophet who teaches that it has failed? Why do they follow such a false prophet? It is also good to remind them of James 3 regarding teaching.
 
po18guy said:
First, advise them that you do not doubt their love of Christ. That is a good foundation.

That being said, ask them point blank: “What do you not understand about Jesus founding a Church and teaching that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?” (Matthew 16:18) Then, remain silent and wait for a response. Politely advise them that their position makes Jesus a liar. Period. It is pure dispensationalist/fundamentalist/evangelical/ anti-Catholic nonsense. Mormon or Jack Chick† caliber stuff.

Ask them by what authority they interpret scripture. Take out your pocket New Testament and read 2 Peter 3:16 to them.

And, maybe mention that, since we have Christ’s promise that His Church will prevail, who then is the false prophet who teaches that it has failed? Why do they follow such a false prophet? It is also good to remind them of James 3 regarding teaching.
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In order to get a non-Catholic to see our point of view about what Matthew is saying, the underlined words above need to be defined and agreed upon, and there lies the problem.
 
JMM1957 said:
In order to get a non-Catholic to see our point of view about what Matthew is saying, the underlined words above need to be defined and agreed upon, and there lies the problem.
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You plant your seeds and move on. Such ignorance not even Christ could overcome in His time here. Prayer to the Holy Spirit is always and everywhere more powerful than our words.
 
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