Islam an offense to our LORD.

[SonofAdam]

nsper7, Hell is not permanent. It is temporary. It is a reformatory, a cleansing factory… Paradise is permanent. If any will enter Paradise, they will never be taken out from it again. But the inmates of hell will be reformed after punishment and they will leave hell at some point.

The prophet Muhammad said, “Hell will be empty one day and the morning breeze will rattle (swing to and fro) the open doors of empty hell.”

In the Quran also, there is clear indication that while Paradise is permanent, hell is not permanent. Hell is temporary.

planten,

As salamu 'alaykum wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatu,

Please bring your reference as to the hadith that you posted. In the meantime,

Imam 'Abd al-Qahir Baghdadi says:

“The scholars of Ahl al-Sunna and all the previous righteous of the Muslim Community are in unanimus agreement (ijma’) that paradise and hell are eternal, and that the bliss of the inhabitants of paradise and the torment of unbelievers in hell will endure forever.”

Imam Taqi al-Din Subki says:

"The faith of Muslims is that paradise and hell do not perish, Abu Muhammad Ibn Hazm having transmitted scholarly consensus (ijma’) on this point and on the fact that whoever denies it is an unbeliever (kafir) by scholarly consensus. And there is no doubt of this, for it is necessarily known(def:f1.3(N) as part of the religion of Islam, and proof after proof bears it out.

(1) "Nay, but whoever earns a wicked deed and is encompasssed by his error, those are the inhabitants of hell, abiding therein forever" 2:81

(2) ***“Verily those who disbelieve and die as unbelievers; the curse of Allah, the angels, and people, one and all, is upon them, abiding therein forever; the torment shall not be lighted from them, nor shall they be respited.” ***2:161 "

{Umdatul Saalik eng trans page. 995}

There are plenty of evidences from the revelation that proves that Jannah/Paradise and Jahenum/Hell-fire last forever.

 

[nsper7]

In Islam, how is one “Saved” then?

 

[SonofAdam]

In Islam, how is one “Saved” then?

My comment to planten was just to show that the hell-fire,itself, is everlasting and the disbelievers that enter it will never get out because they committed Shirk(associated others as partners with Allaah). When it comes to the forgiveness of Allaah in general there are plenty of verses and statements of the Prophet(peace be upon him) that speak about that.

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:

‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.’"

Allaah even commands the believers not to give up on the mercy of Allaah:

39:53 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

At the same time, we don’t go around saying we are saved because, we do not know what will be our status tommorrow. We hope and ask Allaah to keep us upon the straight way and to protect us from the evil of our own selves and from the evil of Satan and his agents.

Someone is saved if he/she died believing in La ilaha ill Allaah, Muhammadur Rasulullaah. This means - I testify there is no deity worthy of worship except Allaah and Muhammad is His Messenger.

Salvation in Islam

Allah, The Most High, says

"And I (Allah) created not the Jinns and men except they should worship Me (Alone).” 51:56 ]

And He said:

"And verily, We have sent among every Ummah ( community, nation ) a Messenger (proclaiming ): ’ Worship Allah ( Alone ), and avoid ( or keep away from ) Taghut ( all false deities etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides Allah). ’ " [16:36]

***“Worship Allah and join none with Him in worship.” ***[4:36]

It is narrated that Mu’adh bin Jabal ( May Allah be pleased with him) said, " I was riding behind the Prophet(pbuh) on a donkey and he said to me ***“O Mu’adh, do you know what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what is the right of the slaves upon Allah?” ***I responded: " Allah and His Messenger know best." He continued, ***“The Right of Allah upon his slaves, is to worship Him Alone and never to associate anything with Him. The right of the slaves upon Him is not to punish any person who does not associate anything with Him.” ***I said: " O Allah’s Messenger, may I not give the glad tidings to the people?" He replied: “***No. Do not inform them lest they rely on (this promise and lapse in their service to Him).” ***(Bukhari and Muslim) "

The 5 Pillars of Islam are:

1. Shahadah - To testify there is no deity worthy of worship besides Allah and that Muhammad(pbuh) is His Messenger. ( This is what is said to become a Muslim )
2. Salat ( Prayer )- Performance of the prayer 5 times a day.(Other prayers are voluntary.)
3. Siyam ( Fasting during the month of Ramadan) staying away from food and drink from sun up till sun down.
4. Zakat ( Yearly Charity)- 2.5% of what one has saved in a year which is given to the poor.
5. Hajj ( Pilgrimage)- Journey to Makkah, performing ritual rites at least once in a person’s lifetime( if able).

6 Articles of Faith

1. Tawheed - Pure Monotheism-To believe in Allaah and His Absolute Oneness
2. To believe in all the Orginal Books that were revealed from Allaah before and including the Qur’aan.
3. The Messengers ( from Adam peace be upon him till Muhammad peace be upon him)
4. The Angels
5. Yaumal Qiyamah ( The Day of Judgment)
6. Qadr ( Pre-destination )

Allaah says;

***“Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds- they will have the Gardens of Paradise(i.e. the Highest part of Paradise, al-Firdaus) as lodging. Wherein they abide eternally. They will not desire from it any transfer.” *** 18: 107-108 ]

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said,

***“No one meets Allah with the testimony that there is none worthy of worship but Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, and he has no doubt about that statement, except that he will enter Paradise.” ***( Recorded by Muslim )

 

[nsper7]

My comment to planten was just to show that the hell-fire,itself, is everlasting and the disbelievers that enter it will never get out because they committed Shirk(associated others as partners with Allaah). When it comes to the forgiveness of Allaah in general there are plenty of verses and statements of the Prophet(peace be upon him) that speak about that.

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:

‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.’"

Allaah even commands the believers not to give up on the mercy of Allaah:

39:53 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

At the same time, we don’t go around saying we are saved because, we do not know what will be our status tommorrow. We hope and ask Allaah to keep us upon the straight way and to protect us from the evil of our own selves and from the evil of Satan and his agents.

Someone is saved if he/she died believing in La ilaha ill Allaah, Muhammadur Rasulullaah. This means - I testify there is no deity worthy of worship except Allaah and Muhammad is His Messenger.

Salvation in Islam

Allah, The Most High, says

"And I (Allah) created not the Jinns and men except they should worship Me (Alone).” 51:56 ]

And He said:

"And verily, We have sent among every Ummah ( community, nation ) a Messenger (proclaiming ): ’ Worship Allah ( Alone ), and avoid ( or keep away from ) Taghut ( all false deities etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides Allah). ’ " [16:36]

***“Worship Allah and join none with Him in worship.” ***[4:36]

It is narrated that Mu’adh bin Jabal ( May Allah be pleased with him) said, " I was riding behind the Prophet(pbuh) on a donkey and he said to me ***“O Mu’adh, do you know what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what is the right of the slaves upon Allah?” ***I responded: " Allah and His Messenger know best." He continued, ***“The Right of Allah upon his slaves, is to worship Him Alone and never to associate anything with Him. The right of the slaves upon Him is not to punish any person who does not associate anything with Him.” ***I said: " O Allah’s Messenger, may I not give the glad tidings to the people?" He replied: “***No. Do not inform them lest they rely on (this promise and lapse in their service to Him).” ***(Bukhari and Muslim) "

The 5 Pillars of Islam are:

1. Shahadah - To testify there is no deity worthy of worship besides Allah and that Muhammad(pbuh) is His Messenger. ( This is what is said to become a Muslim )
2. Salat ( Prayer )- Performance of the prayer 5 times a day.(Other prayers are voluntary.)
3. Siyam ( Fasting during the month of Ramadan) staying away from food and drink from sun up till sun down.
4. Zakat ( Yearly Charity)- 2.5% of what one has saved in a year which is given to the poor.
5. Hajj ( Pilgrimage)- Journey to Makkah, performing ritual rites at least once in a person’s lifetime( if able).

6 Articles of Faith

1. Tawheed - Pure Monotheism-To believe in Allaah and His Absolute Oneness
2. To believe in all the Orginal Books that were revealed from Allaah before and including the Qur’aan.
3. The Messengers ( from Adam peace be upon him till Muhammad peace be upon him)
4. The Angels
5. Yaumal Qiyamah ( The Day of Judgment)
6. Qadr ( Pre-destination )

Allaah says;

***“Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds- they will have the Gardens of Paradise(i.e. the Highest part of Paradise, al-Firdaus) as lodging. Wherein they abide eternally. They will not desire from it any transfer.” *** 18: 107-108 ]

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said,

***“No one meets Allah with the testimony that there is none worthy of worship but Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, and he has no doubt about that statement, except that he will enter Paradise.” ***( Recorded by Muslim )

Now, how are Christians and Jews viewed? Can they be Saved or are they guilty of shirk?

Also, and this is from a comment I made in another thread (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=423767&page=22):

If you, as a Muslim (and this is directed to all the Muslims in this thread), came to the sincere conclusion that Catholic Church possessed the fullness of Truth, would you then become Catholic?

 

[rikkk1958]

My comment to planten was just to show that the hell-fire,itself, is everlasting and the disbelievers that enter it will never get out because they committed Shirk(associated others as partners with Allaah). When it comes to the forgiveness of Allaah in general there are plenty of verses and statements of the Prophet(peace be upon him) that speak about that.

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:

‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.’"

Allaah even commands the believers not to give up on the mercy of Allaah:

39:53 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

At the same time, we don’t go around saying we are saved because, we do not know what will be our status tommorrow. We hope and ask Allaah to keep us upon the straight way and to protect us from the evil of our own selves and from the evil of Satan and his agents.

Someone is saved if he/she died believing in La ilaha ill Allaah, Muhammadur Rasulullaah. This means - I testify there is no deity worthy of worship except Allaah and Muhammad is His Messenger.

Salvation in Islam

Allah, The Most High, says

"And I (Allah) created not the Jinns and men except they should worship Me (Alone).” 51:56 ]

And He said:

"And verily, We have sent among every Ummah ( community, nation ) a Messenger (proclaiming ): ’ Worship Allah ( Alone ), and avoid ( or keep away from ) Taghut ( all false deities etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides Allah). ’ " [16:36]

***“Worship Allah and join none with Him in worship.” ***[4:36]

It is narrated that Mu’adh bin Jabal ( May Allah be pleased with him) said, " I was riding behind the Prophet(pbuh) on a donkey and he said to me ***“O Mu’adh, do you know what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what is the right of the slaves upon Allah?” ***I responded: " Allah and His Messenger know best." He continued, ***“The Right of Allah upon his slaves, is to worship Him Alone and never to associate anything with Him. The right of the slaves upon Him is not to punish any person who does not associate anything with Him.” ***I said: " O Allah’s Messenger, may I not give the glad tidings to the people?" He replied: “***No. Do not inform them lest they rely on (this promise and lapse in their service to Him).” ***(Bukhari and Muslim) "

The 5 Pillars of Islam are:

1. Shahadah - To testify there is no deity worthy of worship besides Allah and that Muhammad(pbuh) is His Messenger. ( This is what is said to become a Muslim )
2. Salat ( Prayer )- Performance of the prayer 5 times a day.(Other prayers are voluntary.)
3. Siyam ( Fasting during the month of Ramadan) staying away from food and drink from sun up till sun down.
4. Zakat ( Yearly Charity)- 2.5% of what one has saved in a year which is given to the poor.
5. Hajj ( Pilgrimage)- Journey to Makkah, performing ritual rites at least once in a person’s lifetime( if able).

6 Articles of Faith

1. Tawheed - Pure Monotheism-To believe in Allaah and His Absolute Oneness
2. To believe in all the Orginal Books that were revealed from Allaah before and including the Qur’aan.
3. The Messengers ( from Adam peace be upon him till Muhammad peace be upon him)
4. The Angels
5. Yaumal Qiyamah ( The Day of Judgment)
6. Qadr ( Pre-destination )

Allaah says;

***“Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds- they will have the Gardens of Paradise(i.e. the Highest part of Paradise, al-Firdaus) as lodging. Wherein they abide eternally. They will not desire from it any transfer.” *** 18: 107-108 ]

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said,

***“No one meets Allah with the testimony that there is none worthy of worship but Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, and he has no doubt about that statement, except that he will enter Paradise.” ***( Recorded by Muslim )

I like your article of faith except for messengers that include Muhammed.

Much of your article of faith are what Christianity is all about. I always believed that Muslims want to believe in God. I honestly admired their seriousness and dedication to worship God. Some were attracted by the way Muslims dedicate themselves, in culture, family and social gatherings.

I am a devout Roman Catholic who happened to take a look again on the faith I have not truly understood before the 9/11. I was amazed by the way Muslims killed themselves for the sake of their beliefs. However, I tried to study my faith again, lo and behold I am sorry to say, my faith still is the Truth to Behold!

I respect Muslims if they are peaceful and interprets Islam as a peaceful religion. This will not however, prevents me to ask them to explore what the real truth is. For me, Muslims are misguided not only by Muhammed but with all his collaborators that made up the Islam religion. If only a Muslim wants to be open minded I think they will also understand.

 

[Hypatia]

Now, how are Christians and Jews viewed? Can they be Saved or are they guilty of shirk?

Also, and this is from a comment I made in another thread (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=423767&page=22):

If you, as a Muslim (and this is directed to all the Muslims in this thread), came to the sincere conclusion that Catholic Church possessed the fullness of Truth, would you then become Catholic?

They can be saved. This is true not only of Christians and Jews, with whom we do have a special relationship, but of all people. The relationship to Allah is universal and the truth of Allah is written on creation and in the self. There is great hope that persons live from that truth, that they live out of a sense of tawhid, to the best of their understanding. You can never judge what is in a person’s heart, and Allah is most merciful and forgiving.​

As for the second question, that is a very big “if”, of course, but it seems like the answer would necessarily be “yes”.

 

[morning_star777]

I just had a painful talk with a muslim last night. He wanted to convince me that Jesus is not the Son of God. And he called the thought that God sent His son to become one of us “stupid.”

He also claimed that the church has put lies in the bible. He said that St. Paul was lying when he spoke of his conversion.

by claiming that Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh, the teachings of islam are the work of the antichrist, according to scripture. I told him that we have been warned ahead of time that the antichrist would come and claim that Jesus is not the son of God. I told him that I was afraid of the teachings of islam.

very good point flame of christ, Not only your muslim fellow(with whom you had a painful talk) but actually it is the teaching of Islam and perhaps worse than it.They strongly believe that Church spread lies,they believe that it is Our church who changed the real teaching of bible.They openly call church liar,they hate Paul and consider him as the evil spirit who corrupted bible by spreading trinity and declaring jesus as God. in short according to islam Christianity is a pervert religion and it was perverted because of Paul and Church or other so called evil persons(indeed christian saints),but still lots of Christians believe that Muslims worship the same god as Christians do! Oh man, what a circus! really I have been enjoying the circus since it has started! the same God circus.See that? here lots of devout christians are too desperate to prove that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do! I really have no Idea what is their benefit if even Muslims worship the same God?Its really funny and amazing that some Christians are desperately trying to prove “the same God error” instead of improving their spirit or faith!Even we saw a thread about it!What a disaster!

 

[nsper7]

very good point flame of christ, Not only your muslim fellow(with whom you had a painful talk) but actually it is the teaching of Islam and perhaps worse than it.They strongly believe that Church spread lies,they believe that it is Our church who changed the real teaching of bible.They openly call church liar,they hate Paul and consider him as the evil spirit who corrupted bible by spreading trinity and declaring jesus as God. in short according to islam Christianity is a pervert religion and it was perverted because of Paul and Church or other so called evil persons(indeed christian saints),but still lots of Christians believe that Muslims worship the same god as Christians do! Oh man, what a circus! really I have been enjoying the circus since it has started! the same God circus.See that? here lots of devout christians are too desperate to prove that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do! I really have no Idea what is their benefit if even Muslims worship the same God?Its really funny and amazing that some Christians are desperately trying to prove “the same God error” instead of improving their spirit or faith!Even we saw a thread about it!What a disaster!

At some level, we all think the other guy is wrong. We sort of have to, otherwise, why aren’t we on the right side with them? For Islam to be right, it means all of Christianity must be wrong. For Catholicism to be right, it means Non-Catholic Christianity and Islam must be wrong.

 

[TEPO]

At some level, we all think the other guy is wrong. We sort of have to, otherwise, why aren’t we on the right side with them? For Islam to be right, it means all of Christianity must be wrong. For Catholicism to be right, it means Non-Catholic Christianity and Islam must be wrong.

It’s not about who is right or who is wrong… this is a stumblilng block for a lot of people… Jesus shows us how to sacrifice ourselves for the love of God and the love of neighbor… Anyone who does these things is madly in love with Jesus… Coincidence? Who knows, but its true.

This is how Christians Know God, while Muslims do NOT know God.

 

[SonofAdam]

So many words, so little progress…

Islam focuses too heavily on the mechanical parts of worship, and not enough on the substance of God Himself…

that’s why self sacrifice, Virgin Mother, Trinity, incarnation, etc, are impossible for them to understand… Tradition and pride stand in the way.

Islam does not worship God, it worships the idea of God.

Actually we focus heavily on the tawheed of Allaah. This means His absolute Oneness and Uniqueness from His creation. Worship is meaningless if tawheed is not understood. The greatest commandment is the first commandment; if this commandment is not understood everything else is worthless.

 

[TEPO]

Actually we focus heavily on the tawheed of Allaah. This means His absolute Oneness and Uniqueness from His creation. Worship is meaningless if tawheed is not understood. The greatest commandment is the first commandment; if this commandment is not understood everything else is worthless.

Who told you to focus so heavily on Gods stature? Not God, that’s for sure… You only say that to defend your traditions because you are too proud to accept a God who is self-sacrificing… You claim: “Thats not my Allah, He would never let men pin Him to a cross”…

Brother, you’re own pride is your worst enemy. God loved you so much He sacrificed His only Son, for you and for all – so that sins may be forgiven.

When you refuse to base your whole life on Jesus and his self-sacrifice, you deny God… Jesus is the* Word made Flesh*. If you can’t see it, then you’re no worse than the Pharisees who crucified our Lord!

 

[SonofAdam]

Who told you to focus so heavily on Gods stature? Not God, that’s for sure… You only say that to defend your traditions because you are too proud to accept a God who is self-sacrificing… You claim: “Thats not my Allah, He would never let men pin Him to a cross”…

Whats the unforgiving sin? Shirk(ascribing partners with Allaah). Without knowledge of Tawheed and Shirk ones religion is on a brink of destruction. It is worthy of studying just based on the fact that it is the greatest commandment.

Shaykh Ninowy…

The Importance of “Elm At-Tawheed”

The greatest and most honorable division of the revealed knowledge is “Elm Al-Tawheed”, because it is the division of knowledge concerned with the Almighty Allah, His Names and His Attributes, Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, in addition to other related subdivisions constituting in totality the foundational fundamentals of the Islamic creed. Allah, The Exalted said in the honorable Quran in Surat Muhammad, Ayah 19:

فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّه ُ) )

This Ayah means: “Know, therefore, that there is no God but Allah”

This ayah entails a clear command, but note that Allah, The Exalted, did not command us in this Ayah to: “say!!, therefore, that there is no god but Allah)!!, but instead, Allah clearly commanded: Know, that there is no God but Allah. To know requires seeking knowledge. Hence, knowledge must be acquired.

Knowing the testification of faith, is by acquiring the pertinent obligatory knowledge including all of its basic conditions and rules.

Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, praised the status of knowledge in Surat AI Mujadilah, Ayah 11, sayings:

يرفع الله الذين امنوا منكم والذين اوتوا العلم درجات والله بما تعملون خبير ) )

This Ayah means: (Allah will raise up to suitable ranks and degrees, those of you who believe and have been granted knowledge.)

This is why the Prophet, Sall Allahu alayhi wa Aalihi wa sallam, spent a lengthy time teaching his companions the Aqeedah and the fundamentals of the creed prior to teaching them the rules of the religion.

Abu Hanifa An-Nu’man bin Thabet Al Koofiyy, one of the most pious and righteous scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama’a, may Allah be pleased with him, said : " knowledge in the essentials of belief is better and far more rewarding than knowledge in the rules of religion".

Hence, knowing Tawheed, and believing in the Kalima* of Tawheed is the foundational and detrimental basis for success in this life and in the hereafter, Allah, The Exalted, said in Surat Al-Fat-h, Ayah 13:

( ومَن لَّمْ يُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ فَإِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا لِلْكَافِرِينَ سَعِيرًا )

This Ayah means: “And if any believe not In Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared for those unbelievers a Blazing Fire”.

…

The knowledge of Tawheed is the best and most honorable of all the knowledge in Islam, because it entails knowing what befits Allah, The Exalted, and what is impossible to be among His attributes and what applies and doesn’t apply to His Messengers, alayhem wa ala nabiyyina wa aalihi assalatu wassalam.

Al-imam Abu Hanifa, rahimahu Allah, said : " Tawheed is al fiqhul akbar." which means the great knowledge.

Tawheed is further classified into two categories; the first one is obligatory on every accountable person (mukallaf).

Every mukallaf must acquire this category of Tawheed as the most important of the obligatory knowledge, however, not abandoning the second portion of obligatory knowledge in the basic rules of religion (i.e. prayers, fasting, Alms, and pilgrimage).

*La ilaha ill Allaah Muhammadur Rasulullaah(there is no deity worthy of worship and Muhammad is His Messenger)
ummah.net/Al_adaab/aqeedah/satisfying_the_need.html

Brother, you’re own pride is your worst enemy. God loved you so much He sacrificed His only Son, for you and for all – .

2:165 ***Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah.: They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty. ***

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

19:36 ***And [thus it was that Jesus always said]: “Verily, God is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer; so worship [none but] Him: this (alone] is a straight way.” ***

so that sins may be forgiven

2:139 ***Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him? ***

When you refuse to base your whole life on Jesus and his self-sacrifice, you deny God… Jesus is the* Word made Flesh*. If you can’t see it, then you’re no worse than the Pharisees who crucified our Lord!

2:120 ***Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah. ***

 

[SonofAdam]

2:135 ***They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham *the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.” **

2:147 ***The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt. ***

 

[nsper7]

Who told you to focus so heavily on Gods stature? Not God, that’s for sure… You only say that to defend your traditions because you are too proud to accept a God who is self-sacrificing… You claim: “Thats not my Allah, He would never let men pin Him to a cross”…

Brother, you’re own pride is your worst enemy. God loved you so much He sacrificed His only Son, for you and for all – so that sins may be forgiven.

When you refuse to base your whole life on Jesus and his self-sacrifice, you deny God… Jesus is the* Word made Flesh*. If you can’t see it, then you’re no worse than the Pharisees who crucified our Lord!

The problem is you have failed to convince our Islamic brothers of the truth of Catholicism. You proclaim Catholic Truth, but that is different from showing how it is true. Just as Muslims proclaim their doctrine and I remain unconvinced of it (I am Catholic after all), you keep proclaiming Catholic doctrine and they remain unconvinced of it.

EDIT: Is that pride on their part or is that wanting more than just your opinion?

 

[SonofAdam]

One point to make is that the Qur’anic message is very clear while the teaching of the Church is very ambiguous. Jesus never taught the doctrine of trinity nor did he say that his religion is christianity.

 

[SonofAdam]

I’m going to need to cut down some of the quoted portions in order to conform to the word limit, but I’ll try to address what I’m seeing the main argument is.

This is an utterly false analogy, though, and shows a great poverty in the shaykh’s understanding of Christianity. We can say God created the Heavens and the Earth from “nothing”, if you’d like, but was Christ created from nothing? No. Christ is the eternal Word, the Logos, of one being and essence with the Father. As such He was not “created”, either in the same way as anything under the sky or in any other way. Unless you want to argue that God was without His eternal wisdom (another definition for “Logos”), this really makes no sense as an objection. We do not in the first place say that Christ was created as another one of God’s creations, like the earth or the skies or anything like that, so it is really NOT “according to (our) premises”, despite what your preamble says.

Indeed. We do not say that Christ is “God-like”, but that He is God.

Okay.

Obviously, we disagree. You (and hence the Qur’an) are arguing from the assumed truth of your OWN presuppositions, not ours. Since we do most definitely affirm that Jesus Christ is God, there is no sense to this objection in the context of debates with Christians.

This is another misunderstanding of the incarnation and the person of Christ on the part of Muslims. The incarnation was not always among us, but Jesus has ALWAYS been (and always will be) the eternal word of God, and hence without beginning or end. If you believe that this is not so, then explain to me how, according to Islamic belief, Jesus will return to smash crosses and kill pigs? He is “dead” already, is He not? I will assume you will probably say that it is Allah’s prerogative to send Jesus back to Earth. Fair enough. We say it is God’s perogative to have sent His Son for us and our salvation in the first place.

Wrong. Jesus is GOD incarnate. He is perfectly and completely both God and man (all apostolic churches agree on this, regardless of how they conceptualize His divinity and humanity).

I suppose this depends on what you mean by “like”. I am like my father, but I am not my father. I am like any other person in the world, though I am not any other person in the world. I am like any other animal in the world, though I am not anything other than human. Let’s define our terms, please.

What then of what happened to Maryam according to the Qur’an? She did not have a child “in the customary manner”. Does that mean that she did not have a body, or was she divine, or what? I don’t think this holds up as a good defense of why God cannot have a son.

Hardly. These arguments are pathetically ineffective, because they are not related to what Christians actually believe. The Qur’an, and hence the defenders of it like this shaykh and you, proceed from what you say we believe, not what we say we believe. Nothing at all resembling Christianity has been refuted here. The shaykh is boxing shadows, and even so still losing.

Response-see “comments” section: sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/refuting-a-christian-argument-against-an-ayah-of-the-quran/#comment-1985

 

[Seeker]

One point to make is that the Qur’anic message is very clear while the teaching of the Church is very ambiguous. Jesus never taught the doctrine of trinity nor did he say that his religion is christianity.

On the contrary, the koranic message is ambiguous, there is no coherency in the suras, they are jumbled up “so-called” revelations that Mohammed claimed to have received from the angle Gabriel. Without the Haidth, the koran is just a book of 6th century poetry. This is why the Jews and even the Christians who lived in Arabia, did not accept him as a prophet.

Jesus may have never used the word “trinity”, but he did call refer to the creator as “Father”(Mathew 6:5-14), himself as “Son” in relation to Father (John 6:37-40), and the Spirit of God as the Holy Spirit (John 14:26)…so you go figure out whether he thought the concept or no?

Your right, Jesus did not say his religion is Christianity, but neither did he say his religion is Islam!. Show me one explicit statement in the New Testament where Jesus says my religion is Islam?? Also, show me from the koran where Isa says my religion is Islam, i am curious to know/
The reason people use the word Christianity is because the teachings are based on the life and teachings of Jesus the Chrsit of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament

 

[Vile_Servant]

Quite clearly, the crux of the matter is “what is the truth regarding Jesus Christ?”

Let’s take a hypothetical scenario.

1. The prophets in the Old Testament, especially Isaiah, foretold the coming of the Messiah, the Son of God and the Suffering Servant.
2. The prophecies were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.
3. No further prophets were needed because the prophecies had already been fulfilled.
4. Christianity was born.
5. 600 years later, Muhammad decided to start a new religion called Islam.
6. Problem is, why would anyone believe in what he has to say since the Messiah has already appeared and has already revealed himself to be God Incarnate?
7. Solution: a) Discredit the bible scriptures by claiming that they have been corrupted. b) Demote Jesus from God to the second last Prophet, c) Institute himself as the Last Prophet and Messenger of God.
8. How to demote Jesus from God to the second last Prophet?
9. Solution: a) Dismiss the notion of the Trinity (and therefore the divinity of Jesus Christ) by means of the Tawheed. b) Bind all believers of Islam to the Tawheed by defining shirk (disbelief in the Tawheed) as the ONLY unforgiveable sin in Islam. c) Dismiss the notion of the death and resurrection of Christ by claiming that Jesus did not die on the cross, but Judas or one of Jesus’ disciples (depending on which Muslim scholar you ask), under the bodily appearance of Jesus.

Sounds far-fetched?

 

[planten]

Quite clearly, the crux of the matter is “what is the truth regarding Jesus Christ?”

Let’s take a hypothetical scenario.

1. The prophets in the Old Testament, especially Isaiah, foretold the coming of the Messiah, the Son of God and the Suffering Servant.

Yes, Vile Servant, the coming of a messiah for the Jews was prophesied. Also the coming of Elias before Messiah. Also the coming of “The Prophet”. Please see Deut 18:18 and John chapter 1.

Elders of the Jews had come to John the baptists asking him if he was Elias. He said “NO.”
Then they asked him “Are you the messiah?” He said “No.”
Then they asked him, “Are you that Prophet?” He said “No.”
So Vile Servant, please understand that at the time of John the Baptist, Jews were waiting for three persons. And none of them was a god. They were waiting for three simple persons.

If Isaiah said something in vague words, you will try to fit it to Jesus. If Moses had said somehing about some one, you will try to fit that to Jesus. That is not fair. Nobody will believe you.
Please note that all the above three persons were different. Otherwise, why the Jews would ask for each one of them??
.

1. The prophecies were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.

May be some prophesy was fulfilled, not all. You cannot fit vague references to any one you like. When Jesus had predicted about another comforter after him, you people deny that and try to fix that prophecy to some one of your choice (Holy Ghost). How can the holy Ghost be another comforter? You have to look for the first comforter who was Jesus.
The other comforter will be like Jesus, not a ghost or spirit?

1. No further prophets were needed because the prophecies had already been fulfilled

.
You cannot say “No further prophets were needed…” If the followers of Moses became spoiled then many prophets including Jesus came. If the followers of Jesus get spoiled and go on wrong track then God will surely send another messenger. Jesus had already given the good news about a parclete (Comforter= Ahmad). Jesus even told the name of that comforter (See Quran 61:6). Jesus also called him Parclete (See book of John ch.16(?)).
But when the Parclete (Muhammad) came with clear signs, the followers of Jesus said that it was a clear fraud (Sihr). (Quran 61:6)

1. Christianity was born.

Okay, so was Jesus. Jesus was also born. We do not deny that.

1. 600 years later, Muhammad decided to start a new religion called Islam.

And may I ask when did you people decide to start a new religion when Jesus did not want to do that?? He suffered but never broke away from his people. He never started a new religion or any new law. His law was same as the law of Moses.

1. Problem is, why would anyone believe in what he has to say since the Messiah has already appeared and has already revealed himself to be God Incarnate?

Vile Servant, Jesus never said he was God and he never said that he was incarnate. Show me from bibleNT. Do not try to deduce new things from your own mind, please.

1. Solution: a) Discredit the bible scriptures by claiming that they have been corrupted. b) Demote Jesus from God to the second last Prophet, c) Institute himself as the Last Prophet and Messenger of God

.
I cannot well understand your meaning here. We do not discredit the bibleNt entirely.But we Muslims do not believe what goes against the Quran and against the teachings that were given to Jews through Moses. If you have new theories which go against the bibleOT and Torah, then you are at fault. We have full right to oppose only those teachings of the bibleNT. WE do not discredit the good work of the bible.

More later…

 

[planten]

1. How to demote Jesus from God to the second last Prophet?

Vile Servant, niether we need to promote nor demote any one. You in your post are in fact trying to demote Islam. We give great love and credit to Jesus and his mother and the real teachings of Jesus. We do not say that you have corrupted your bible. That is your business. If you are happy with your bible as it is then it is okay for us. You can have your bible. We do not blame you for anything. Believe what you like.

1. Solution: a) Dismiss the notion of the Trinity (and therefore the divinity of Jesus Christ) by means of the Tawheed. b) Bind all believers of Islam to the Tawheed by defining shirk (disbelief in the Tawheed) as the ONLY unforgiveable sin in Islam. c) Dismiss the notion of the death and resurrection of Christ by claiming that Jesus did not die on the cross, but Judas or one of Jesus’ disciples (depending on which Muslim scholar you ask), under the bodily appearance of Jesus.

You have given solutions to your problems. I hope they benefit you. But I would not agree with any one seriously, specially the last point about some one else being on the cross instead of Jesus. I would never believe that because that was a false idea put into action by some christian monk (Priest).
Sounds far-fetched?