Islam an offense to our LORD.

  • Thread starter Thread starter myfavoritmartin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you believe the contents of The Mystical City of God (the body of the writer, Ven Mary of Agreda, is incorrupt which lends it some credibility) Satan decided to start a competitor religion to Christianity on the day of the Crucifixion and Islam was his personal idea. Took him a while to set it up but I suppose he was waiting for the right time/man/conditions.

There used to be (still is?) an order of missionaries dedicated to working to convert Muslims (The White Fathers). I recall one of their priests, years ago, saying that their priests could work for years without any apparent result.
 
MAY…

So what then just let them be that this MAY be to their demise?
If I understand your oddly-worded sentence correctly, you think they are automatically doomed if they don’t see things the way you do? Well, I can’t agree with you there.

If you are trying to say they should be evangelized, that’s certainly all right. Many have tried it. And there are Catholic parishes in Muslim countries, so they are being witnessed to by Christians. If you don’t think it’s enough of an effort then by all means jump into the fray and go try it.
 
Yes the god of Islam, aka Satan.
All false religions have a god or gods, and to call some entity of your own manufacturing or some demon or Satan himself “god” doesn’t make it so.

Be clear in knowing that confounding allah with God Almighty is doing them no justice.

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Code:
 19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

  ** "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." **
Tolerance is preferable to arrogance when it comes to helping others with the truth. You may practice the truth, but they do not yet. Their salvation will not be helped through name-calling.

The Lord will provide for his people. We as Christians can do nothing to aid in this but plant the seed. Perhaps, particularly in this Lenten season, you should concentrate on judging your own manners and salvation, as will we all.

Based on the fiery language you have given so far, I would not blame one Muslim reading this thread if they stuck to their faith. Being charitable is different from being tolerant, and I would appreciate it if you would learn the difference if we are to help this thread’s discussion.
 
Correction - they pray 5 times a day.

near dawn (fajr),
after the sun’s noon (dhuhr),
in the afternoon (asr),
just after sunset (maghrib)
and around nightfall (isha’a)

And so what Mother Mary is mentioned in their koran more than the Bible?

She is not The Blessed Mother Mary to muslims or their koran, but just a woman who gave birth to a prophet of islam.

And if you read the koran about Mother Mary, it is not the same person which is written in our Bible.
jakasaki,

Thank you for the correction. But yet you never mentioned our distant brothers the Mormons, who are so far off basic Christian theology that they have a third book of scripture.

Any mention of Christ and the Blessed Virgin, particularly with the reverence they give it (and they do give strong reverence) is a potential path towards Catholicism. Any Muslim that reads your words, here, would deservedly take offense with the insult you gave their scriptures, as I would feel if somebody made offense to the Bible uncharitably.

I should also note that, directly, Christ is not mentioned by name in Hebrew scripture. Does this mean we make light and insult the Judaic peoples as well? Of course not.

I have not been on the forums for very long, but I am personally disappointed at the lack of charity in this particular thread. I will continue to read this thread, but I am disappointed that the behavior here has had less generosity or charity than a Pharisee. Please, please, measure your words and their intent.

I have spoken all that I can say, and pray for the appreciation of others who are not yet following Christ directly.
 
Their salvation will not be helped through name-calling.


Perhaps, particularly in this Lenten season, you should concentrate on judging your own manners and salvation, as will we all.

Based on the fiery language you have given so far, I would not blame one Muslim reading this thread if they stuck to their faith. Being charitable is different from being tolerant, and I would appreciate it if you would learn the difference if we are to help this thread’s discussion.
What have i said to muslims personally that was uncharitable or fiery? I spoke against their false religion not them personally
 
If you believe the contents of The Mystical City of God (the body of the writer, Ven Mary of Agreda, is incorrupt which lends it some credibility) Satan decided to start a competitor religion to Christianity on the day of the Crucifixion and Islam was his personal idea. Took him a while to set it up but I suppose he was waiting for the right time/man/conditions.

There used to be (still is?) an order of missionaries dedicated to working to convert Muslims (The White Fathers). I recall one of their priests, years ago, saying that their priests could work for years without any apparent result.
We have missionaries throughout Iraq and the mideast and are seeing many come to a saving knowledge of the LORD.
 
It may be important to note that being charitable can include respect for another’s chosen faith, despite the contradictions and fallacies implicit in the other’s faith based on your faith teaching.
I agree wholeheartedly there. I’ve often been shocked by the way some Christians here treat Muslims, to the point where threads are started based on lies. Thankfully I don’t believe that the majority of people here on CAF love lie over truth, but as with any group (Christians or Muslims) there are bad apples, and there are some who bring reproach to the cause of Christ.

I will admit it can be frustrating sometimes having dialogue with Muslims, but only because so much of Islam’s apologetics are full of double standards, or no emphasis on accurately portraying non-Islamic religions by the standards of their own scripture. It’s a bit like someone saying by accident, “2+2=5,” and refusing to admit error even when you plainly show that 2+2=4. However, we must maintain some spirit of charity and patience. After all, God showed patience with us in our sin.
That said, most religions are believed to have some truths (CCC 847). The Mormons, for example, believe in Jesus Christ and God. However, their interpretation and application of said belief is unique and therefore foreign to us.

Yet the Mormons bring light to the ecumenical table of God through their piety and their love of family. Any genealogist alive today can tell you that the LDS Church aids everyone of all faiths in family history, and that is a wonderful thing.

That said, unlike any other Christian faith I know of, a typical Muslim will pray by requirement at least six times per day, every day. They *do *pray to the God of Abraham and of David. Their holy book mentions Mary the Mother of God far more than our own Bible. But, as with the Mormons, yes, I do believe their interpretation of God’s message as foreign.
I think you must be very, very very careful when you attempt to find comparisons between Christianity and Islam. I know it is common among post-modern people to say, “Oh, we all believe the same thing! Let’s eat, drink and be merry!” and many Muslim speakers and apologists like to say that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God and have the same prophets, etc…but when you get down to what those beliefs mean, you have two entirely separate worlds. For example, Muslims believe in the Virgin Mary and the virgin birth, yes. However, do they have the same context as we do in that regard? Certainly not. They do not believe that what happened in the womb of the Blessed Theotokos was the Incarnation, simply a miraculous birth involving no male partner. The idea of the hypostatic union is foreign to them, and in fact most Muslims who come here show ignorance of it. They do mention prophets such as Abraham and others, but they also add Ishmael and believe that Ishmael was under the same promise as Isaac, despite what Genesis says in this regard. They think men such as Lot were prophets (when they never were), and believe that all prophets, Mohammad included, were just as sinless as Jesus was. The cries of lament by the Psalmist or the calls for death by Elijah are foreign to them, because they do not comprehend how a messenger of God could ever feel abandoned by Him. Most of all, they deny the tenants of the Christian faith. They deny the crucifixion happened the way Christians believe…most of all that Christ died and was resurrected. Most of all they deny the Trinity, which orthodox Christianity has taught for 2000 years was a denial of God. As St. Basil the Great wrote, he who denies the Son or the Holy Spirit benefits nothing from the Father, and vice versa for all persons in the Trinity. Each Person represents the fullness of God, and to deny the divinity or presence of one denies all three.

As for their prayer, their prayer is regimented, and Paul warned against empty repetition. I know many monks and priests who pray just as many times (if not more) out of faith, not out of a legalistic requirement. I would daresay that one prayer out of faith trumps 100 prayers out of regulation. 🙂

Oh, just a side comment: the Mormons do have a heavy emphasis on genealogy, but do you know why? It’s because in Mormonism, a person can save deceased family members by being baptized in their name, ie if I know great great grandpa’s name, I can get myself baptized at the Temple and he’ll automatically be blessed in the afterlife. That’s also very foreign to orthodox Christianity. 😉
While I would never encourage anyone to become a follower of Islam, I must respect where a person is, at the very least, in order to encourage them to follow the fuller path.
I would respect a person’s being, and would most certainly never try to convert someone by the sword or by extortion or pressure, however I would also plainly tell them the truth and try to give them the message which was given to me. We are not called to be judges, but we are called to be ambassadors for Christ, and in the olden days if an ambassador or messenger changed the message given by his king because he didn’t like it…he usually got beheaded. 😃

Again, I do agree that we must show respect to the erring. I despise Islam, but I love Muslims. Or as Fulton Sheen once said, intolerance is for the error, tolerance for the erring.
 
What have i said to muslims personally that was uncharitable or fiery? I spoke against their false religion not them personally
I don’t think anyone is opposed to evangelizing. It is the tact you are using which isn’t helpful and is actually a hinderance to evangelizing. A more productive way to achieve your ends is to find some common ground. They believe in one God. They may not understand Him the way we do because they are lacking His revelation in the person of Jesus Christ. Maybe you could start there. But to walk up and hit them with a Christian club is going to do nothing but confirm their opinion of most Christians. Better to change that opinion by being charitable. Give them a reason to listen.

God bless and good luck!
 
Have we gotten so soft in the defense of our savior that when we see a spade we no longer call it a spade? At mass tonight the priest stated that Pope Pius 12 once stated that the greatest sin commited in his time was the fact that society has gotten to a place where it no longer calls sin a sin anymore. Thus not recognizing it a sin or calling it a sin when it is a sin. During Pius’s reign i think ww2 was going on.
 
Have we gotten so soft in the defense of our savior that when we see a spade we no longer call it a spade? At mass tonight the priest stated that Pope Pius 12 once stated that the greatest sin commited in his time was the fact that society has gotten to a place where it no longer calls sin a sin anymore. Thus not recognizing it a sin or calling it a sin when it is a sin. During Pius’s reign i think ww2 was going on.
Christians really do NOT have to quote Popes, Cardinals, Bishops etc. in order for them to find out what is the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord.

What they really need to do is to refer to the First and also the Second Commandment:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
… Exodus 20:4&5

"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." … Leviticus 26:1

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg.
 
If you believe the contents of The Mystical City of God (the body of the writer, Ven Mary of Agreda, is incorrupt which lends it some credibility) Satan decided to start a competitor religion to Christianity on the day of the Crucifixion and Islam was his personal idea. Took him a while to set it up but I suppose he was waiting for the right time/man/conditions.

There used to be (still is?) an order of missionaries dedicated to working to convert Muslims (The White Fathers). I recall one of their priests, years ago, saying that their priests could work for years without any apparent result.
Thats very interesting I never knew that. I will add that book to my to read list.
 
Oh my gosh, dude, seriously? SERIOUSLY? You posted this in a dozen other threads. No one was impressed the first 50 times you did it. They’re not impressed the 51st time. I don’t think you’ve won anyone over to Islam with it, in fact you bring reproach to the cause of Islam, but this fact seems to simply fly over your head.

You don’t really talk to people on this forum, you only have about two or three arguments which you use over and over again ad nauseum. That’s obnoxious to the forum goers, it’s rude to the writer of the OP, and it’s arrogant - arrogant because people have responded to your points a dozen times, and you simply ignore them and keep on posting, showing that you don’t care what others say. That is not constructive interaction, it’s spam.

You try this one more time, and you will be reported.
Christians really do NOT have to quote Popes, Cardinals, Bishops etc. in order for them to find out what is the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord.

What they really need to do is to refer to the First and also the Second Commandment:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, … Exodus 20:4&5

"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." … Leviticus 26:1

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg.
 
Christians really do NOT have to quote Popes, Cardinals, Bishops etc. in order for them to find out what is the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord.

What they really need to do is to refer to the First and also the Second Commandment:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, … Exodus 20:4&5

"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." … Leviticus 26:1

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg.
Hi, there.

I’m happy to see that a member of the Islamic faith has commented in the thread.

You bring up a common misconception in how Christianity views paintings and statues. I am aware of the Islamic custom where Muhammad’s face is never depicted in Islamic art, so I understand the sensitivity.
**
Catholics use paintings and statues as we do photography today. A photo of a person is not the person, and we treat Catholic art exactly the same.**

Obviously there were no cameras at the time of Christ or other people in Scripture. As such, artists over the years have made illustrative and beautiful works of art, often works that depict leaders, events and holy ones of Sacred Scripture.

But absolutely **none **of these works are worshipped–that is, treated as God or the object it represents as the person itself. Artwork, aside from the aesthetic beauty it gives (as mosques have in Islam), offer us a picture of someone. Doing so would definitely be a violation of the First Commandment (as numbered in Catholic Christianity).

As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject, a book made long ago, the Catechism of Christian Doctrine sums up the Catholic position.
Code:
* "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
* "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
* "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
* "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."
I offer a counter-example, based on my understanding of Islamic faith. One tenet required of Muslims is a pilgrimage to the Kaaba in Mecca once in their lifetime, if I note correctly. For what does one go there for? The Kaaba? Since the Kaaba is not Allah, for what reason does one go to this important object?

Muslims make their pilgrimage (among other reasons, I am sure) for similar reasons we Catholics look towards a representation of Mary or Christ. Veneration and respect.

We do not worship the rock and inks and paint that form these images any more than a Muslim would worship the Kaaba or the (incredible) art found inside mosques I have seen online.

Hopefully that clarifies the Catholic position.
 
Oh my gosh, dude, seriously? SERIOUSLY? You posted this in a dozen other threads. No one was impressed the first 50 times you did it. They’re not impressed the 51st time. I don’t think you’ve won anyone over to Islam with it, in fact you bring reproach to the cause of Islam, but this fact seems to simply fly over your head.

You don’t really talk to people on this forum, you only have about two or three arguments which you use over and over again ad nauseum. That’s obnoxious to the forum goers, it’s rude to the writer of the OP, and it’s arrogant - arrogant because people have responded to your points a dozen times, and you simply ignore them and keep on posting, showing that you don’t care what others say. That is not constructive interaction, it’s spam.

You try this one more time, and you will be reported.
I was merely responding to a poster who has quoted what Pope Pius 12 once stated i.e. “that the greatest sin committed in his time was the fact that society has gotten to a place where it no longer calls sin a sin anymore”.

My point was that the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord is worshiping something or someone other than the One Lord and Creator of the Universe and erecting statues and putting up graven images of righteous people among them and this is indeed the grave sin that the people of Noah (pbuh) committed and that is why He drowned them.

Christians need to refer to their scriptures for guidance, NOT rely entirely on the views of their Church leaders who often will express views which are at odds with what the Bible teaches.

And the great irony here is that Pope Pius 12 was correct in saying what he said since the Church itself does not call the grave sin of erecting statues and bowing down to them to be a sin anymore.

Pope Pius 12 had in fact admitted that the Church is committing the gravest of sin by not calling this violation of the Second Commandment to be a sin at all.
 
no one can be culpable of sin if they do not know they are indeed sinning. It doesn’t mean no sin has been committed it merely means the one committing it cannot be held responsible…
But Muslims ARE aware that they are sinning, since the Koran tells them the Christian belilef in “forgiveness”… It is when they reject the idea of “forgiveness of sin” that they exclusively reject Jesus…
From the Koran:
“18. The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say; Why then does He punish you for your sins? No, you are but mortals of His creating. He forgives whom He will, and punishes whom He will.”
Have you read C. S. Lewis’ “The Last Battle”? Did you read the part about the young soldier who had worshiped a false god all his life and how Aslan dealt with him? If not, you may want to do so. It’s solidly Catholic in understanding (although CSL was Anglican he had a pretty good grasp of such Catholic concepts) as well as spiritually moving.
Is it the same as what Jesus said though…? Or was Jesus being facecious…?
 
They believe in one God. They may not understand Him the way we do because they are lacking His revelation in the person of Jesus Christ.



God bless and good luck!
Believe in A god not the one and only true God. Their god the god of Islam, is aka Satan.
All false religions have a god or gods, and to call some entity of your own manufacturing or some demon or Satan himself “god” doesn’t make it so.

Be clear in knowing that confounding allah with God Almighty is doing them no justice.
And is offensive to the LORD.
 
Hi, there.

I’m happy to see that a member of the Islamic faith has commented in the thread.

You bring up a common misconception in how Christianity views paintings and statues. I am aware of the Islamic custom where Muhammad’s face is never depicted in Islamic art, so I understand the sensitivity.
**
Catholics use paintings and statues as we do photography today. A photo of a person is not the person, and we treat Catholic art exactly the same.**

Obviously there were no cameras at the time of Christ or other people in Scripture. As such, artists over the years have made illustrative and beautiful works of art, often works that depict leaders, events and holy ones of Sacred Scripture.

But absolutely **none **of these works are worshipped–that is, treated as God or the object it represents as the person itself. Artwork, aside from the aesthetic beauty it gives (as mosques have in Islam), offer us a picture of someone. Doing so would definitely be a violation of the First Commandment (as numbered in Catholic Christianity).

As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject, a book made long ago, the Catechism of Christian Doctrine sums up the Catholic position.
Code:
* "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
* "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
* "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
* "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."
I offer a counter-example, based on my understanding of Islamic faith. One tenet required of Muslims is a pilgrimage to the Kaaba in Mecca once in their lifetime, if I note correctly. For what does one go there for? The Kaaba? Since the Kaaba is not Allah, for what reason does one go to this important object?

Muslims make their pilgrimage (among other reasons, I am sure) for similar reasons we Catholics look towards a representation of Mary or Christ. Veneration and respect.

We do not worship the rock and inks and paint that form these images any more than a Muslim would worship the Kaaba or the (incredible) art found inside mosques I have seen online.

Hopefully that clarifies the Catholic position.
Putting aside the question of worship, the Second Commandment warns against erecting statues and putting up graven images and bowing down to them.

A picture paints a thousand words and therefore, doesn’t the photo of the Pope bowing down to the statue of Mary show a very clear violation of the Second Commandment?

And as for Muslims bowing down towards the Kaaba in Makkah, we are really following the way how the Prophets (peace be upon them all) themselves worshiped their Lord.

I will bow down toward your holy temple
and will praise your name
for your love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.
Psalm 138:2
 
Putting aside the question of worship, the Second Commandment warns against erecting statues and putting up graven images and bowing down to them.

A picture paints a thousand words and therefore, doesn’t the photo of the Pope bowing down to the statue of Mary show a very clear violation of the Second Commandment?
Yes i would agree with you that it is a violation, but Catholics understand this differently,
A quick question to you have you ever lied? or stole something?
 
Yes i would agree with you that it is a violation, but Catholics understand this differently,
A quick question to you have you ever lied? or stole something?
The second commandment refers to using the Lords NAME in vain (blasphemy)… The name of the Lord is HOly…

Placing judgement on a man (especially the pope) – is the violation… How can you claim to know what is in his heart? You are claiming that the pope is worshipping the object as opposed to giving praise to the soul that the picture represents…

YOu should not pass judgement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top