Islam an offense to our LORD.

[Flame_of_Christ]

dude don’t quote the bible alright? you make yourself seem so biased when you quote some parts when they fit your fancy and then reject other parts of it when they don’t fit your “teaching.”

I think that the methodology of muslim’s who quote the bible is a mockery to biblical interpretation.

do you get what I am saying?

 

[Della]

Again, let us examine what the Second Commandment says in Leviticus:

"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

Like I have mentioned, the Second Commandment is warning against making any “graven images” and “bowing down” to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues but it does indeed warn against bowing down to them.

And so, I do not understand why Christians are so insistent on inserting the word “worship” into the Second Commandment because it only serves to cloud the true and crystal-clear meaning of this Commandment.

It is implied in the action and in the prohibition. It’s the whole point of the commandment–that worship (adoration) belongs to God alone. No one is bowing down to do what the commandment prohibits when he kneels before a statue of Jesus or one of the Saints. He is merely using the object as a focus of worshiping God.

What I will never understand is how non-Catholics cannot get this concept, a simple enough one, into their heads. Nor how they will not believe us when we tell them we are NOT giving to an object the worship due to God alone. If you will not see it and will not understand it, we cannot make you and will not go on trying to convince you of what you will not accept. That’s the end of it. This thread has gone way off topic. I’m done here.

 

[Madaglan]

I just had a painful talk with a muslim last night. He wanted to convince me that Jesus is not the Son of God. And he called the thought that God sent His son to become one of us “stupid.”

He also claimed that the church has put lies in the bible. He said that St. Paul was lying when he spoke of his conversion.

by claiming that Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh, the teachings of islam are the work of the antichrist, according to scripture. I told him that we have been warned ahead of time that the antichrist would come and claim that Jesus is not the son of God. I told him that I was afraid of the teachings of islam.

If he believes St. Paul was lying, what makes him so convinced that Mohammed was not? The teachings of St. Paul were corroborated by the Apostles and by the disciples.

The Old Testament in several places speaks of God in terms of father, and the king of Israel and the people of Israel as sons of God.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

If he believes St. Paul was lying, what makes him so convinced that Mohammed was not? The teachings of St. Paul were corroborated by the Apostles and by the disciples.

The Old Testament in several places speaks of God in terms of father, and the king of Israel and the people of Israel as sons of God.

They don’t accept anything that does not fit their muslim conspiracy theory: that is that everything written before islam must be incorrect if it does not fit into muhammed’s man made religion.

 

[kempo1]

I was merely responding to a poster who has quoted what Pope Pius 12 once stated i.e. “that the greatest sin committed in his time was the fact that society has gotten to a place where it no longer calls sin a sin anymore”.

My point was that the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord is worshiping something or someone other than the One Lord and Creator of the Universe and erecting statues and putting up graven images of righteous people among them and this is indeed the grave sin that the people of Noah (pbuh) committed and that is why He drowned them.

Christians need to refer to their scriptures for guidance, NOT rely entirely on the views of their Church leaders who often will express views which are at odds with what the Bible teaches.

And the great irony here is that Pope Pius 12 was correct in saying what he said since the Church itself does not call the grave sin of erecting statues and bowing down to them to be a sin anymore.

Pope Pius 12 had in fact admitted that the Church is committing the gravest of sin by not calling this violation of the Second Commandment to be a sin at all.

im back on and want to clarify, Pope Pius was refering to what was happening to the jews in ww2 so you are wrong in your assumption. Our Priest was using the reference for the times we live in today because if you look at society and what is on our tv programs everything is ok in peoples eyes. We are to politically correct. So i, as well as others on here, am offended with your assumption that he was some how alluding to the way we worship or venerate or give honor to our ancesters of the faith. Please dont put words in my mouth or try to steel something from our faith and pollute it with your belief. May God Bless You

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I was merely responding to a poster who has quoted what Pope Pius 12 once stated i.e. “that the greatest sin committed in his time was the fact that society has gotten to a place where it no longer calls sin a sin anymore”.

My point was that the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord is worshiping something or someone other than the One Lord and Creator of the Universe and erecting statues and putting up graven images of righteous people among them and this is indeed the grave sin that the people of Noah (pbuh) committed and that is why He drowned them.

Yes, I know. You said all this in another thread. People addressed that argument. You ignored them and just kept repeating yourself. Now you’re doing it again.

To go from an off-the-cuff comment of, “Why can’t people call sin a sin?” to the argument “DON’T BOW TO IDOLS!” is a pretty big jump. I think everyone can see the dishonesty in your tactics and can see right through your non sequitor. You are fooling no one except yourself.

Once again, you do nothing but bring reproach to Islam, and I am still consistent in my warning. Engage in honest dialogue.

 

[hamba2han]

… To go from an off-the-cuff comment of, “Why can’t people call sin a sin?” to the argument “DON’T BOW TO IDOLS!” is a pretty big jump…

The point that was brought out by the poster and which I was addressing concerned that which would be considered “the greatest sin” in the eyes of the Lord.

I will submit that violating the First & Second Commandments is indeed the greatest sin in the eyes of the Lord… and erecting statues and making graven images and bowing down to them is certainly a very clear violation of the Second Commandment.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The point that was brought out by the poster and which I was addressing concerned that which would be considered “the greatest sin” in the eyes of the Lord.

Please tell me what that has to do with the OP.

 

[hamba2han]

Please tell me what that has to do with the OP.

The topic of the thread is → Islam an offense to our LORD

Islam warns the believers against violating the First and Second Commandments… as well as the rest of the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

And so, it is those who are violating the Second Commandment by erecting statues and making graven images and bowing down to them who are truly offending the Lord, NOT the followers of Islam.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The topic of the thread is → Islam an offense to our LORD

Islam warns the believers against violating the First and Second Commandments… as well as the rest of the Ten Commandments with the exception of the Sabbath.

And so, it is those who are violating the Second Commandment by erecting statues and making graven images and bowing down to them who are truly offending the Lord, NOT the followers of Islam.

The OP has nothing to do with that. Again, you’re detracting from the OP’s subject by a great leap. Either respond to the OP within its own context, or don’t respond at all. Going off on a non-sequitor is threadjacking.

You’ve shown time and time again that you’re incapable of addressing arguments presented to you or by other people, you simply fall back on one of your own arguments and demand others address it. I’ve known Mormon missionaries who handled going off their prepared script better than you do.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why on earth are you asking me these kind of questions??

Let’s just say that I have done certain things in my life which I am not proud of… but the difference here is that I am NOT saying that some of the things which I have done were not sinful.

if you lie once does that not make you a liar? being a liar how will you ever be able to be in the presence of a Holy and righteous God?

 

[hamba2han]

if you lie once does that not make you a liar? being a liar how will you ever be able to be in the presence of a Holy and righteous God?

**
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.** … (Al-Qur’an 39:53)

The believer does not despair of the Mercy of his Lord and he needs to sincerely repent and seek the forgiveness of his sins.

 

[Nine_Two]

Bowing down towards the holy temple of the Lord is indeed an act of worship → Both the Bible and the Qur’an agree on this.

On the other hand, erecting statues and bowing down to them is a great sin → Both the Bible and the Qur’an are in agreement here.

And so, we can see that when it comes to the fundamental aspects of worship, both the Bible and the Qur’an are in complete agreement.

However, when the Church gets involved on issues of worship, then this is where the major differences arises with what Islam teaches.

When I was in Konya this past summer I witnessed a number of muslims bowing before a chest supposedly containing your prophets hair. Seems you’re fellow muslims have made an idol of him.

 

[hamba2han]

When I was in Konya this past summer I witnessed a number of muslims bowing before a chest supposedly containing your prophets hair. Seems you’re fellow muslims have made an idol of him.

If this is true, then they need to repent and seek the forgiveness of Allah.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

**
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls!
Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He
is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.** … (Al-Qur’an 39:53)

The believer does not despair of the Mercy of his Lord and he needs to sincerely repent and seek the forgiveness of his sins.

if he has done wrong how can he be forgiven? Does no-one pay the penalty for wrong doing?

 

[Nine_Two]

If this is true, then they need to repent and seek the forgiveness of Allah.

I’ll give you credit, you’re the first Muslim I’ve told that to who didn’t dismiss it out of hand.

Nonetheless this was an institutionalized thing in the Islamist capital of Turkey.

 

[hamba2han]

if he has done wrong how can he be forgiven? Does no-one pay the penalty for wrong doing?

The believer who has done wrong seeks the forgiveness of his Lord… and no soul bears the sin of another.

Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed. … (Al-Qur’an 6:164)

 

[Hypatia]

I’ll give you credit, you’re the first Muslim I’ve told that to who didn’t dismiss it out of hand.

Nonetheless this was an institutionalized thing in the Islamist capital of Turkey.

The idea of ‘saints’ and adoration of the saints is quite widespread and normal in Islam despite attempts of modernists, such as the wahabis, salafis and other anti-Sufis, to try and convince the rest of us that it is unislamic.

A (sic) head of John the Baptist isn’t in the Masjid in Damascus for decoration, for instance. Or there is the Maqbara in Pakistan, or any number of other shrines, where people regularly make pilgrimage. Etc., etc., etc.

So, just as certain Christians don’t endorse the idea of saints and shrines etc. (e.g., Baptists) and some do (Catholics), the same is true with Muslims as well (though it is difficult to put the same kind of neat labels on the distinct groups within Islam).

 

[Nine_Two]

The idea of ‘saints’ and adoration of the saints is quite widespread and normal in Islam despite attempts of modernists, such as the wahabis, salafis and other anti-Sufis, to try and convince the rest of us that it is unislamic.

A (sic) head of John the Baptist isn’t in the Masjid in Damascus for decoration, for instance. Or there is the Maqbara in Pakistan, or any number of other shrines, where people regularly make pilgrimage. Etc., etc., etc.

So, just as certain Christians don’t endorse the idea of saints and shrines etc. (e.g., Baptists) and some do (Catholics), the same is true with Muslims as well (though it is difficult to put the same kind of neat labels on the distinct groups within Islam).

However it does mean Muslims can’t accuse us of “Shirk” without condemning large sections of their own faith.

 

[Hypatia]

However it does mean Muslims can’t accuse us of “Shirk” without condemning large sections of their own faith.

And, don’t worry, they do. The Muslims who would accuse you of shirk for having saints, quite happily accuse the rest of us for it too! Congratulations and welcome to the club.

that said, the primary focus for the accusation of shirk against Christians is the Incarnation (and Trinity).