Islam an offense to our LORD.

[Nine_Two]

Your definition is pretty idiosyncratic. I certainly can’t think of anyone who shares it with you (can you?). Those words don’t seem to be used that way in other contexts. Nonetheless, it certainly clarifies how you are using them.

I took them from a dictionary. They are the standard way of using them. I even showed how Paradoxes, by that definition, occure in nature - proven by science. Of course you convieniently ignore that.

But, as I said earlier once you admit contradiction it is pretty much a conversation ender because you are free to say anything you wish. If you had just said, at the beginning, that it didn’t matter to you if the Incarnation (and Trinity) were contradictions it would have saved us a lot of time.

Except that the “contradiction” is not the topic of this conversation. I attempted to tell you what we believe, this is not something which has been open to argumentation.

Of course you saying I believe in a limited God doesn’t make it so. We can certainly say that I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about God.

You continually refuse to answer I ask, or to defend yourself on that. Instead you attempt to prove I believe in a limited God. Given everything you’ve said this is the only reasonable conclussion for one to reach. If you want to provide a defense I continue to invite you to do so.

No one has said God is subject to anything. God is the Good.

No one has said God is subject to anything if you ignore what was written there. The very objective of the post was to show that God had to abide by our morality.

You are the one who is well outside the classical tradition on this topic.

What?

I can’t think of anyone significant who agrees with you before the advent of the nominalists in the West. (Actually, there are some Muslims who agree with you before that.)

As you’ve already shown, your ethos is rather limited when it comes to what my faith tradition believes.

Most of the classical tradition thinks that people can know that there is a God and significant things about who God is solely through the exercise of Reason (because all beings have their ground in God’s Being).

That’s Latin tradition. I don’t belong to the Latin tradition. How about instead of quoting Anselm and Thomas Aquinas ad nauseum you actually mention someone from my faith tradition who backs up my point. Not that it matters, you still aren’t defending the Muslim world view. If you want to continue to throw people of other traditions at me then expect me to throw hadiths from outside your tradition at you and expect them to stick.

Even if they go on to talk about things that can only be known by way of divine revelation, they still think that it will not go against that Reason (thus they are usually at pains to show that the Incarnation (and Trinity) are NOT contradictions. There is a reason, after all, why all that technical, precise language is developed around those two doctrines). Once again, in the absence of that, there isn’t a whole lot to talk about.

No, there isn’t a whole lot to talk about while you’re quoting foreign traditions and avoiding the central question.

I am, once again, curious, who are the major intellectual representatives of your tradition that you think agree with you?

Let’s go with St. Gregory Palamas. St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, etc. I’m curious if you are even familiar with any of the “major intellectual representatives” from my tradition?

at least with these last few posts of yours we are starting to see what the real issue is. you have a definition of God as omnipotent that is completely isolated from all the other divine attributes. Anything else would place limits on God. I wonder if God can decide not to be (we wouldn’t want to place any limits after all)?

Of course he can decide what not to be. But that’s the crux of what I’ve been arguing, and why I say Islam limits their god while Jews don’t do the same. The Koran says God can’t, the Jews simply believe he hasn’t, and don’t think he would. They don’t believe it is impossible for him.
So yes, I believe God has decided not to be incarnate on Earth in the form of a giraffe. I believe that if he desired he could do so.
You believe God cannot become incarnate in any form.

So once again, either provide a defence or don’t, but stop trying to attack my own religion in an attempt to prove we limit God, and that somehow this means you do not.

 

[Hypatia]

You claim Christ can not be God because God can not become incarnite in man while at the same time continuing to be God. Is this not placing a limitation on God?

I assume this is “the central question” since it is the one that initiated this conversation. [If this is not the central question, please provide a clear statement of the central question.]

The answer to that question was no, this does not entail placing a limitation on God. Instead it affirms that one cannot attribute or predicate contradictions to God (i.e., you cannot both affirm and deny something of God in the same respect). This is a perfection, not a limitation. God does not violate God’s Being.

Since you think you can predicate and attribute contradictions to God (you think something can be both true and not true of God in the same respect), it seems the conversation is over because the possibility of talking rationally about God is completely undermined. I can’t even pretend I know what you are talking about when you affirm a God who can be in self-contradiction.

Finally, it seems to me that by arguing that one cannot limit God (a true enough claim), you actually appeal to the idea that one cannot attribute contradictions to God. You think I contradict who God is (i.e., omnipotent) by denying that God can contradict Godself; you realize that it is nonsense to say that God is limited and omnipotent.

good night, and good luck.

 

[planten]

We cannot decide what God can do or what cannot do. If we do that then we will be trying to become a God. In Islam we have the verse which says “Allah is capable of doing all that He wills.” It means He can do what he likes to do.

Now we have to see from the scriptures what He likes to do and what He does not like to do. God tells us what he likes to do. We have no right to use the power of God every where of our choice.

Nine_Two:
Of course he can decide what not to be. But that’s the crux of what I’ve been arguing, and why I say Islam limits their god while Jews don’t do the same. The Koran says God can’t, the Jews simply believe he hasn’t, and don’t think he would. They don’t believe it is impossible for him.
So yes, I believe God has decided not to be incarnate on Earth in the form of a giraffe. I believe that if he desired he could do so.
You believe God cannot become incarnate in any form.

So once again, either provide a defence or don’t, but stop trying to attack my own religion in an attempt to prove we limit God, and that somehow this means you do not.

Nine_Two is also right but wandering around very near to the right answer. Here is a question of incarnation (or take any other belief). We have to see if God ever said that He incarnates in other forms. I do not believe there is any such direct word from God that He incarnates. Any derived meaning will not be permitted.

So if God has never informed us about His incarnation, we have no right to utilise that service on behalf of God. God can produce a man from a tree. But does he do it?? Does He say He producs man from a tree??. The answer is NO.

So we cannot believe that God created any man from a tree.
We have to look for the Will of God. In our scriptures, bible and Quran, God has told what He does. He has told many things. We should believe only those things and not invent / utilise the Omnipotence of God any where we like. God has never told us that He incarnates into other forms, say the form of a man or a bull. So, we should never believe such things.

In the omnipotence of God Almighty, we should not forget His Will.

 

[tomarin]

If you wish to put limits on what god can and cannot do that is your issue, but it is certainly not the belief of Christianity as a whole. God defines morality, he is not subject to it.

I think if you studied the history of how traditional orthodox Christianity thinks about God, you would see that you are mistaken.

Peace and God bless.

 

[spn82756]

We cannot decide what God can do or what cannot do. If we do that then we will be trying to become a God. In Islam we have the verse which says “Allah is capable of doing all that He wills.” It means He can do what he likes to do.

Now we have to see from the scriptures what He likes to do and what He does not like to do. God tells us what he likes to do. We have no right to use the power of God every where of our choice.

Nine_Two is also right but wandering around very near to the right answer. Here is a question of incarnation (or take any other belief). We have to see if God ever said that He incarnates in other forms. I do not believe there is any such direct word from God that He incarnates. Any derived meaning will not be permitted.

So if God has never informed us about His incarnation, we have no right to utilise that service on behalf of God. God can produce a man from a tree. But does he do it?? Does He say He producs man from a tree??. The answer is NO.

So we cannot believe that God created any man from a tree.
We have to look for the Will of God. In our scriptures, bible and Quran, God has told what He does. He has told many things. We should believe only those things and not invent / utilise the Omnipotence of God any where we like. God has never told us that He incarnates into other forms, say the form of a man or a bull. So, we should never believe such things.

In the omnipotence of God Almighty, we should not forget His Will.

planten…do you use those super tiny fonts because you don’t want us reading some of your post?

 

[Vile_Servant]

the virgin birth can be thought coherently (however implausible it may seem). It is an empirical question, and it does not involve contradiction.

Would you consider Abigail and Brittany Hensel to be two persons in one being?

Would it therefore not be possible (however implausible it may seem for Muslims) for God (for Whom nothing is impossible and Who is above all human comprehension) to be three persons in one being?

 

[tomarin]

thank you… This is all i have been saying the entire time.

You’re welcome.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Qur’aan says [from what can be translated]

"There is nothing comparable unto Him’’
112:4

Again, we are not limiting the Creator by negating what He has negated from Himself.

So what He has negated from Himself is an impossibility to attribute to Him. So now back to my question:

Can you ever attribute to God, ‘lost of life’ when you believe He is the Eternal/ Ever Living One?

Spirits and souls are immortal and live for ever. God is Spirit who has always existed, and the soul of man existed from the time of his creation. The human body is joined to the immortal soul, and is separated at the hour of death, and reunited at the hour of resurrection. Muslims and Christians alike believe in the resurrection of the body at the Last Day.

There is neither impossibility nor contradiction when the Eternal/Ever Living God, chose to unite Himself with a human body and human nature, which at the same time never changed the essence of His ever living and immortal Spirit.

In the scriptures, Jesus taught that He had the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again.

John 10:18
No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[spn82756]

thank you… This is all i have been saying the entire time.

Therefore…since God cannot lie or do evil…Jesus Christ is God. If He is not…then God would have lied to Mary and Joseph through Gabriel.

 

[sedonaman]

In regards to the title of this thread:
Judging others is an offense to God
Annie

Pray tell how would you know which people to avoid who would lead you to sin if you didn’t judge them?

 

[sedonaman]

…
I request all here not to discuss how Jesus was born without a father. …

Why would we do that in a thread about Islam?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Why would we do that in a thread about Islam?

Because he has no other argument and has to fall back on something else. As usual.

 

[TEPO]

Christians said they want to focus on Allah better, praise be to Him for this, He wants Christians to focus on Him that’s why He sent them a messenger (pbwh).

You know you have spoken about limiting G-d what about limiting your Brother???
If he desires to focus on G-d and says he knows the statue is nothing don’t take it from him, Allah will bring him to fullness of truth if he so wills and you help.
What if you take statue from him and he can not find a way to focus on Allah? then what have you done for him, what have you done for Allah.

God did not send a messenger for us for the purpose of focus. If (pbwh) means Jesus, then you don’t understand (pbwh).

Jesus came to offer the gift of forgiveness of sins. those who refuse to honor this gift that G-d has given us will suffer for not accepting it… Especially considering the fact that we do not accept it out of spite!

If someone claims to believe in the G-d of Abraham, then he should honor Jesus as Son of G-d. Jesus is G-d made flesh!

 

[TEPO]

All Muslims need to repent and convert to Christiantiy to prevent offending G-d.

 

[planten]

Spirits and souls are immortal and live for ever. God is Spirit who has always existed, and the soul of man existed from the time of his creation. The human body is joined to the immortal soul, and is separated at the hour of death, and reunited at the hour of resurrection. Muslims and Christians alike believe in the resurrection of the body at the Last Day.

It all seems to be correct. Very good.

There is neither impossibility nor contradiction when the Eternal/Ever Living God, chose to unite Himself with a human body and human nature, which at the same time never changed the essence of His ever living and immortal Spirit

.

That is doubtful. If something is not impossible it does not mean it must happen. Here you are uniting the God with man by some way of incarnation etc. Did such an incident happen only once in the history of mankind or it happened a few times??

From where did you get the above idea?. Was it some direct indication in the scripture (BibleOT/NT/Quran) or you derived it from the sacred scripture yourself? I cannot go with it.

In the scriptures, Jesus taught that He had the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again

.
I believe that. But remember that Jesus used to talk in parables. I understand what Jesus meant and his words were true. But the meaning you may be taking could be different to mine.

John 10:18
No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This is also true. Jesus received some commandment. Just remember please that Jesus received some commandment from Father (i.e. God).It is sure that he received them as a prophet, not as a God.
It means he used to receive some commandments in words…There must have been a medium who brought the messages (commands)… Jesus used to act on those commands. Whatever Jesus said is true. But we should not try to take wrong meanings of what he said. IN any case, literal meanings should not be taken.

 

[planten]

Therefore…since God cannot lie or do evil…Jesus Christ is God. If He is not…then God would have lied to Mary and Joseph through Gabriel.

spn, Yes, that would be true if Jesus had been preaching that he was God from the day one. We do not see any such activity (any such word) in the early parts of the gospel. He never preached that he was God. God need to be worshipped. But Jesus was himself worshipping his own God. That is very clear in the bibelNT.

So Jesus being God is not the principle message of Jesus. He has been made into a God by some one. There is very little of that news in the gospel. People used to know Jesus as a prophet of God for the Israelis. That is what the Muslims believe.

spn, it would be difficult for you to prove from the gospel that Jesus is God. So please do not put any pressure on God trying to prove that He was a Liar. Do not throw your ignorance on God. If you are sure that gospel repeatedly speak about Jesus as God then you could take some stand on this subject. But such is not the case.

You have evolved an idea (as believed by most christians) that Jesus is God. On the authority of that idea you are blaming God and Gabriel for telling lies. That is a wrong approach. Muslims (as well as Jews) take strong offence to your belief that Jesus is God. They will never believe that however you try.

But you can believe what you like. No harm to us. Only keep your belief to your self. Do not bring it near the Muslims in any manner. Unitarian faith will never admit such wrong belief.

 

[nsper7]

They do NOT believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God.
Jesus is NOT just a prophet.
Crucified and raised for our sins He is the one mediator between God and man, they don’t get this.
They do not understand that ONE day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is LORD of all to the glory of the Father.
They dishonor Him because they do not ascribe the glory to Him.

One way one truth one life.Jesus
He who has the Son has the Father.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life.

How shall the muslims hear unless we preach?

I’d watch out:

In a way, I almost view Protestantism as a greater threat and insult to the Church than Islam.

After all, which is worse:

The child (the Protestants) who spits in its mother’s eye, tries to murder her and claim she was never his mother or the neighbor (the Muslims) who you have had fights with time to time.

Protestants dishonor God by rejecting His Church and they have less excuse than the Muslims because Protestants claim a great knowledge of the Scriptures.

EDIT: Based on your profile, it sounds like you were raised Catholic. If so, that means you personally rejected Christ’s Church. If you did so, that makes you extremely culpable, much moreso than the Protestant or Muslim raised in their faith and with little true knowledge of the True Church.

 

[planten]

God did not send a messenger for us for the purpose of focus. If (pbwh) means Jesus, then you don’t understand (pbwh).

Jesus said he was receiving commands from father God. So he was a messenger for the Israelis.

Jesus came to offer the gift of forgiveness of sins. those who refuse to honor this gift that G-d has given us will suffer for not accepting it… Especially considering the fact that we do not accept it out of spite!

It is true that any one who will not accept Jesus as a messenger will not be forgiven.

If someone claims to believe in the G-d of Abraham, then he should honor Jesus as Son of G-d. Jesus is G-d made flesh!

You have over done something. From where did yoy get that news?? Any one who believes in Abraham and God of Abraham should believe in Jesus as a prophet of God. Abraham was himself a prophet of God. Abraham never said that a son of God will be coming (born) 2500 years after him.

Abraham never spoke a word about a son of God. He never spoke about G_D made flesh. What are you preaching please??

 

[spn82756]

spn, Yes, that would be true if Jesus had been preaching that he was God from the day one. We do not see any such activity (any such word) in the early parts of the gospel. He never preached that he was God. God need to be worshipped. But Jesus was himself worshipping his own God. That is very clear in the bibelNT.

So Jesus being God is not the principle message of Jesus. He has been made into a God by some one. There is very little of that news in the gospel. People used to know Jesus as a prophet of God for the Israelis. That is what the Muslims believe.

spn, it would be difficult for you to prove from the gospel that Jesus is God. So please do not put any pressure on God trying to prove that He was a Liar. Do not throw your ignorance on God. If you are sure that gospel repeatedly speak about Jesus as God then you could take some stand on this subject. But such is not the case.

You have evolved an idea (as believed by most christians) that Jesus is God. On the authority of that idea you are blaming God and Gabriel for telling lies. That is a wrong approach. Muslims (as well as Jews) take strong offence to your belief that Jesus is God. They will never believe that however you try.

But you can believe what you like. No harm to us. Only keep your belief to your self. Do not bring it near the Muslims in any manner. Unitarian faith will never admit such wrong belief.

HUH??? That is deluded. Jesus allowed himself to be worshiped!!!

Repent! Follow Christ as the great I AM!

 

[nsper7]

And I say Protestantism is a greater threat to the Church than Islam because how many Catholics covert to Islam vs. how many convert to Protestantism?