Islam an offense to our LORD.

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Hypatia said:
I assume this is “the central question” since it is the one that initiated this conversation. [If this is not the central question, please provide a clear statement of the central question.]
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Yes, that would be logical. I’ve restated it several times. I thank you for finally answering it.
The answer to that question was no, this does not entail placing a limitation on God. Instead it affirms that one cannot attribute or predicate contradictions to God (i.e., you cannot both affirm and deny something of God in the same respect). This is a perfection, not a limitation. God does not violate God’s Being.
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Why not? Why is this perfection? You haven’t really answered this. Why can God not be infinite and become incarnate as man at the same time? This is like arguing one cannot have a glass of water and an ocean at the same time.
Since you think you can predicate and attribute contradictions to God (you think something can be both true and not true of God in the same respect), it seems the conversation is over because the possibility of talking rationally about God is completely undermined. I can’t even pretend I know what you are talking about when you affirm a God who can be in self-contradiction.
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I attribute paradox’s to God, things that appear to be contradictory on the surface, but are not. You yourself are guilty of this as well. Is it not a contradiction for you to say God is omnipotent, but at the same time saying God cannot be incarnate as man?
Your entire argument seems to be around the necessity of limiting God to avoid surface “contradictions” yet at the same time you defend this very contradiction.
Finally, it seems to me that by arguing that one cannot limit God (a true enough claim), you actually appeal to the idea that one cannot attribute contradictions to God. You think I contradict who God is (i.e., omnipotent) by denying that God can contradict Godself; you realize that it is nonsense to say that God is limited and omnipotent.
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That last line is exactly what you’re saying.
All I am saying is we cannot know God beyond what he has revealed to us, and while some of this is paradoxical (An infinite being becoming man while continuing to be an infinite being), a closer look shows it is not (the water example earlier). You have insisted on arguing with pathos that a paradox is really a contradiction and therefore cannot exist, yet you continue to ignore what has been said about naturally occuring paradoxes.

While I thank you for finally making a clearer attempt to answer the question, your answer is still lacking, mostly because you insist on sticking with the language of Islam, but refusing to apply your arguments back on it.
 
tomarin said:
I think if you studied the history of how traditional orthodox Christianity thinks about God, you would see that you are mistaken.

Peace and God bless.
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Would you kindly provide me with some Orthodox Fathers, and the places where they taught these things?
 
Nine_Two said:
Would you kindly provide me with some Orthodox Fathers, and the places where they taught these things?
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I don’t know much about what Holy Orthodoxy teaches, but if it ever taught that God was morally arbitrary then it wouldn’t be “small-o” orthodox, if you catch my drift, because it wouldn’t have a coherent theory about the nature of God, for the reasons that I stated in my earlier posts.

I will look into this for you when I have time, but in return I’d like you to engage the particulars of my argument.
 
tomarin said:
I don’t know much about what Holy Orthodoxy teaches, but if it ever taught that God was morally arbitrary then it wouldn’t be “small-o” orthodox, if you catch my drift, because it wouldn’t have a coherent theory about the nature of God, for the reasons that I stated in my earlier posts.

I will look into this for you when I have time, but in return I’d like you to engage the particulars of my argument.
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I didn’t say God was morally arbitrary, I said he defines what morality is.
 
planten said:
Jesus said he was receiving commands from father God. So he was a messenger for the Israelis.
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Revelation 1:17
“Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last”

John 10:27
“My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.”

John 10:30
“The Father and I are one”

So if Jesus was really only a “messenger” of God, then why would He lie?

Jesus openly claims that He is “one” with the Father…
Jesus says He is “the first and the last”…
Jesus says “I give them eternal life”…
Jesus raised the dead… :confused:
planten said:
You have over done something. From where did yoy get that news?? Any one who believes in Abraham and God of Abraham should believe in Jesus as a prophet of God. Abraham was himself a prophet of God. Abraham never said that a son of God will be coming (born) 2500 years after him.

Abraham never spoke a word about a son of God. He never spoke about G_D made flesh. What are you preaching please??
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There have been many, many prophets since Abraham…

A psalm of David. 2
"The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.”

Hebrews 1:2
" in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe, who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high"
 
Although I’m probably in danger of derailing the topic of the thread…
nsper7 said:
And I say Protestantism is a greater threat to the Church than Islam…
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What, you think my dad is overseas protecting Middle Eastern Christians from radical Methodists? 😛
 
Nine_Two said:
I didn’t say God was morally arbitrary, I said he defines what morality is.
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…which would be what it means to say that God is the Good… and thus that God cannot do anything that contradicts the Good.

If that is what you think, I don’t understand what you are objecting to.
 
Hypatia said:
…which would be what it means to say that God is the Good… and thus that God cannot do anything that contradicts the Good.

If that is what you think, I don’t understand what you are objecting to.
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It’s because of wordgames like this that we must turn to apophatic theology to discuss the nature of God. Saying “God is good” is fine insofar as it goes.
 
Nine_Two to Hypatia:
Why not? Why is this perfection? You haven’t really answered this.** Why can God not be infinite and become incarnate as man at the same time?** This is like arguing one cannot have a glass of water and an ocean at the same time.
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Nine_Two does not seem to understand. It is not the question whether God can incrnate or not. The question is whether God has said He incarnates. If God has not said in clear words that He incrnates into human bodies then no one has the right to attribute that to God.
Nine_two to Hypatia:
…All I am saying is** we cannot know God beyond what he has revealed to us**, and while some of this is paradoxical (An infinite being becoming man while continuing to be an infinite being), a closer look shows it is not (the water example earlier). You have insisted on arguing with pathos that a paradox is really a contradiction and therefore cannot exist, yet you continue to ignore what has been said about naturally occuring paradoxes.
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That highlighted line is good and enough. WE cannot try to attribute things to God which He has not told us. Just because He is omnipotent, we cannot say He incarnates, He jumps into the river, He eats swines flesh… This matter should be easy to understand.

God is Omnipotent. We Muslims believe that He is powerful to do (Achieve) what He Likes to do." There are other things too which he may have power to do but he does not wish or like to do. All those things need not be even discussed.

But Nine_Two is taking up incarnation which God has not confirmed in His Wills.
 
planten said:
Nine_Two does not seem to understand. It is not the question whether God can incrnate or not. The question is whether God has said He incarnates. If God has not said in clear words that He incrnates into human bodies then no one has the right to attribute that to God.

That highlighted line is good and enough. WE cannot try to attribute things to God which He has not told us. Just because He is omnipotent, we cannot say He incarnates, He jumps into the river, He eats swines flesh… This matter should be easy to understand.

God is Omnipotent. We Muslims believe that He is powerful to do (Achieve) what He Likes to do." There are other things too which he may have power to do but he does not wish or like to do. All those things need not be even discussed.

But Nine_Two is taking up incarnation which God has not confirmed in His Wills.
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blah blah blah blah blah! Jesus is the Word Incarnate. The bible says it. Satan is very happy with planten.
 
spn82756 said:
blah blah blah blah blah! Jesus is the Word Incarnate. The bible says it. Satan is very happy with planten.
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spn, calm down. You are saying “God incarnates.” Show me those words from the bibleOT/NT/Quran please. Until then you are making up this thing from your own mind. You think that God incarnates.
 
planten said:
spn, calm down. You are saying “God incarnates.” Show me those words from the bibleOT/NT/Quran please. Until then you are making up this thing from your own mind. You think that God incarnates.
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Dear planten,

I have already shown you from my previous post quotes from the Bible OT, NT, and Quran the God’s incarnation of the Word made flesh, to which you have not replied.

I will further quote from the Bible OT, NT and the Quran to show you that God has shown by a clear sign the Incarnation.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (which means God-with-us)

Quran 21.91
And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit and made her and her son a sign for the peoples.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.

Blessings and peace.
 
Nine_Two said:
I attribute paradox’s to God, things that appear to be contradictory on the surface, but are not. You yourself are guilty of this as well. Is it not a contradiction for you to say God is omnipotent, but at the same time saying God cannot be incarnate as man?

Your entire argument seems to be around the necessity of limiting God to avoid surface “contradictions” yet at the same time you defend this very contradiction.
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I will answer this post in more length in just a second, but I need to be clear on something.
  1. I am not now, nor have I ever, rejected paradox. Nor have I equated contradiction with paradox. I have said this almost every time you have brought up the idea of paradox. Paradoxes and contradictions are not the same thing. I have defined contradiction a number of times. It will appear again in point 2, below. If you want to argue that certain Christian claims about God are paradoxes, you are going to have to talk specifically about those Christian claims and show how the category of paradox helps us understand them.
  1. Do we or do we not agree that it is inappropriate to predicate or attribute contradictions to God (i.e., one cannot both affirm and deny something of God in the same respect; God is not in self-contradiction).
If we agree on this, then it seems to me the question we are arguing over is whether or not the doctrine of the Incarnation is a contradiction. I have made arguments that it is.

If we do not agree on this, then I don’t know what there is to discuss, because we can’t even get to the discussion of the Incarnation. As I have said, the willingness to affirm contradiction with respect to God makes the term/idea meaningless and effectively denies God. No ground for conversation remains once one is permitted to say contradictory things about God and think that God can be in self-contradiction.
 
planten said:
Nine_Two does not seem to understand. It is not the question whether God can incrnate or not. The question is whether God has said He incarnates. If God has not said in clear words that He incrnates into human bodies then no one has the right to attribute that to God.
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On the contrary, 9-2 and I are, I believe, arguing over whether or not God can be incarnate.
 
spn82756 said:
It’s a forum open to all. And a Fundamentalist Christian does not deny the Divinity of Christ.

Other than a few fringe “modernist lost” protestants…would you care to list which protestant denominations reject the Divinity of Christ as muslims do?

Thanks
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But Protestants deny the Truth and authority of His Church. Also, Protestantism was founded in direct rebellion against the True Church while Islam was founded in opposition to Middle Eastern paganism.
 
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