Islam an offense to our LORD.

[spn82756]

Where is the love there then (question directed at God, not you)?

And the love is shown by God allowing Himself to be murdered at the hand of non-believers…such as muslims. What greater love is there than to lay down ones life for your friends. Jesus is love. He asked only that we believe and follow him to be saved. Islam denies Jesus. I don’t see how they can obtain salvation. Especially when the koran specifically refers to Christians as dogs and polytheists.

 

[Steven_John]

AoA,
Yow Bro, first pls dont be offended but i am reluctant to talk with you on this, we have not chatted well in the past and i am not real bright, but with patience and if you keep simple for me, lets try. Allah willing His truth will come in our hearts from this.

Steven John, you made good effort but your translation of verse 4:157 is not uptodate.

I have no idea what this means, Quran does not get updated, the language translation is best i could find to be of just language, I got it from a guy claiming to be Muslim.

Shubbiha Lahum refers to life and death of Jesus, not to the person of Jesus. It only means that Jesus was made to appear to them as dead. In your next post you have considered this possibility. That is good.
Please read as follows:

I did what you offer seems to me to be an interpretation of the Arabic offering much more than the original text. Similar to the message bible.
Do you write (not speak) Arabic as your first language?
Do you have formal qualification in Quranic Arabic language?

If you do could you please help with the text in the same way as i posted from the other scholar.

If not i respect what you have posted is how you feel about the Quran or have been taught or even by personal inspiration.

PS standard font black/ dark blue text is easier 4 me to read.

Please note that here the false allegation is being discussed that enemies killed Jesus on the cross (Crucifixion). The same is being denied.It is the death that is under discussion, not another person. It is the death which is being described that he appeared to be dead. It does not say that it appeared to be Jesus.

Refer above as you say here it is discussion

Then Quran further goes on to refute the claim of enemies that they killed Jesus.It says they have no real knowledge about it. They are only following whims. They have doubts too. The elders of the Jews had never seen Jesus as actually dead and buried. They never saw his body again. The elders of the Jews had complained that the body of Jesus had been removed (stolen) and taken away some where. They tried to bribe the guards to give some statement to the effect that while they were asleep, friends of Jesus took away the body.

Much easier for me is quote the sura that contains exactly what you are offering

In the presence of such words in the bibleNT, it appears that Quran is right. Allah saved his servant (Jesus) from cursed death on the cross and saved Jesus from becoming a cursed person.

Dont agree the Bible narrates to me Yeshua (pbwh) was killed did die and did rise. I would offer in both faith traditions men don’t have any lasting power over men, but they think they do. In simple, goodies always win over baddies but let the baddies think they won.

The theory of switching the person was a big attack to mislead the Muslims. That was the idea given by some christian monk.

Bro you assert this as truth, please cite reference IE history document, hearsay or your personal spirit inspiration.

Your words here offer “some Christian” has placed him self over most Muslims, thats a lot of people.
You really need to back this up now and very solidly or i hold you out for the claim.

From your words either this monk has a lot of souls to answer for as most muslims are in error or shirk i think is the word. In my understanding of Islam their ignorance will condemn them as each is responsible for seeking right guidance and no one will interceded except each perfect Muslim can save 10. that means 10% of muslims would have to agree with you IME no chance.

Or you maybe accountable for the accusation on some monk for a huge crime you accuse him of.

That idea of some one else on the cross is not in the Quran or Hadith.

I would not say so based on the scholar i quoted but we must recognise Islamic scholars have translated it this way and majority of Muslims accept it as true.

As we can see here at CAF many people of religions feel a great need to focus on out differences, embrace them and get a sense of superiority.

May Allah by His will bless and guide you and yours as yous submit unto Him.

 

[Steven_John]

Especially when the koran specifically refers to Christians as dogs and polytheists.

I have read some from the Quran and read that not all Christians and Jews are bad.

Why do Christians read them selves into the bad bits and not the good bits?

 

[spn82756]

I have read some from the Quran and read that not all Christians and Jews are bad.

Why do Christians read them selves into the bad bits and not the good bits?

My friend…it is because many muslims profess and act on the negative things about Christians and Jews. We are seen by many as being infidels and to be slain for the sake of Allah. It is very rare that we read or hear about mullahs and muslim clerics advising other muslims against the hate that is sometimes talked about in the koran. I believe that once mullahs and clerics that are opposed to the islamist teaching become a majority in being critical of that kind of hate teaching…many non-muslims will be willing to be more charitable. Until now though we hear little of this. We still hear muslim clerics extalling the virtues of things like the 9-11 disaster. Once that stops…and the “moderates” become the mainstream…It will be hard for me to show much respect for islam. Now…that said…I know there are many many good muslims that do not agree with violence. They must work on making their view known to the world.

God bless
Steve

 

[Steven_John]

My friend…it is because many muslims profess and act on the negative things about Christians and Jews. We are seen by many as being infidels and to be slain for the sake of Allah. It is very rare that we read or hear about mullahs and muslim clerics advising other muslims against the hate that is sometimes talked about in the koran. I believe that once mullahs and clerics that are opposed to the islamist teaching become a majority in being critical of that kind of hate teaching…many non-muslims will be willing to be more charitable. Until now though we hear little of this. We still hear muslim clerics extalling the virtues of things like the 9-11 disaster. Once that stops…and the “moderates” become the mainstream…It will be hard for me to show much respect for islam. Now…that said…I know there are many many good muslims that do not agree with violence. They must work on making their view known to the world.

God bless
Steve

I know i figure that is what was behind your comment but did not want to suggest into the thread.

I know many Muslims do the same with Christians and I feel we need to ask them “what is wrong with JW’s” the most common response is they are Christians.

Why are Christians bad they believe in Isa (pbuh) and Allah sent him?

Because Allah is against trinity.

I tell them Yes i know Allah is one and He has no partner but why are you against JW’s?

Again they will speak of trinity, i ask them what have the JW’s told you of trinity?

They will go into a vauge Trinity explanation b4 i tell them they are not in right guidance with Allah and must be submitting to an illah. Forgive me if i am wrong but i very doubt a JW actually told you that foowey.

I am to tell them i have listened to JW’s and they are anti trinity so the illah you are submitting to keeps you from Allah, for surely Allah knows the truth and you do not.

So you are not in submittance to Allah, for surely Allah will not mislead a pious man who knows that men can lead him astray.

If i am to be rightly guided i am called to gently warn you, you and any you know who would have answered me as you did must be outside of Islam.

With respect I am no scholar read the Quran and see if it says all Christians are bad or if Shatan wants you to forget Allah says Christians are not all in error.

I also urge them if they have learned any thing they should now go and listen to other Christians about how they understand trinity rather than just deciding what is in a mans heart,
for surly Allah knows best
Surely Allah is with the patient and
surely a patient man listens.

before making discernment from understanding of Allah and unless under threat of your life you will leave judgement to Allah. For all other matters of justice from Allahs truth we know He prefers mercy.

Dont be a fool and go out to find a Muslim to try this out on, thats not love its arrogance.
But do consider if you and or your parish are in a position to build relationships with Islamic people.
I dont mean to go forth and convert i mean to go and love and let the Holy Spirit do as only He does.

The JW thing is a little naughty as it does entrap, something we dont do hear, i think the forum does not like it, but morally it is unfair in forums.

I may not seem to at times but i do understand for some who have one on one bad experiences with Muslims or just watch the tv I am very difficult to take. But I pray at our Mosque nearly every Friday, work in their working bees, look after the mosque if it needs, basically i do for them as i do at my parish. There are some lovely humans in our Islamic community where i live, they do also for my parish as they can.

Now I am human b4 i mixed it with our Islamic community i thought they were mad people who blew things up.

I have met some visiting Jamart (kinda like the redemptrists for Catholics) try to spout anit views we sort them out and they are told Allah does not allow that here. If any one is seen to be a danger we will report them to the police. I even had to intercede over one guy they were going to call the police on for just having forceful nature for how Ramadan starts.

I doubt many Islamic communities will stand very tall against nasty “Islamists” in western countries unless we love them and help them. There are cultural barriers social interaction and communication issues. Many of these people would feel powerless for Allah when many of the people they would go to for support are like some of the posters at CAF.

A beautiful Sister here at CAF recently said she had fear of Islam, i really know where she was coming from but i promise all of you fear comes from Shatan and wont serve goodness, it makes us want to pull away.

The Holy spirit encourages us to push in with love, if the anti-christ rises out of Islam, American politics the Mormons it does not matter, infact it proves the scriptures true, it proves the word of G-d that says its coming.

If it proves the word it proves love your enemy’s, if darkness takes my flesh let it be done to me, if one understands Our Fathers kingdom this has already been done to me in my for fathers.

Just love it is so simple don’t make it hard for you or any other.

I pray we all take a little of (Allah’s / Our Fathers / Gods / G-ds / The One always existent source of true goodness) infinite blessings and grow it and share it

“i will be who I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see

PS if any thing i answered for Allah’s truth is in error i urge an Muslim to please gently warn me with the Quran.
If any Christian can show me we are called not to love please sharpen me as Iron sharpens Iron.
For Catholics next Sundays Gospel has some small glimpse of understanding 9-11

 

[KathleenGee]

Steven John,

I think you have responded the best to Muslims of any threads I have read…I just got back in from working out of the home…and when I get the time, will go through all the posts…so far, what I read,…your responses are excellent and educating.

Kathleen

 

[Vile_Servant]

Woe please,
i am sure you did not mean this as it sounds it is not my version of the Quran, well hang on not when i posted, it was Arthurs.

But in quick reflection, no prayer, it is what i saw in my heart when i first tried to read Quran.

Ironically it wasnt what the words said as i read from the Noble Quran, that I think is the same as the earlier post i made

perhaps i should rephrase the question as “which is the most authoritative and accurate translation of the Quran”?

 

[spn82756]

Steven John,

I think you have responded the best to Muslims of any threads I have read…I just got back in from working out of the home…and when I get the time, will go through all the posts…so far, what I read,…your responses are excellent and educating.

Kathleen

 

[tomarin]

Hi Nine_One,

What I’m learning about Holy Orthodoxy (to my somewhat considerable surprise) is that it is reluctant to talk about God the way that Western Christianity does, by doctrinal exposition. So it may be impossible to answer your question about which Patristic fathers or Orthodox theologians subscribe to my view that God is morally perfect and therefore incapable of evil. Still, I would think that it is an article of faith among all Christians that God is good (after all, why would he be worthy of worship if he weren’t?). That’s really all that I’m saying.

I think I’ll leave it there as I’m just beginning to understand how profound the differences are between the Eastern and Western traditions, and don’t want to mischaracterize the former (as well as expose my shameful ignorance).

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

At times, when I have said that it is inappropriate to predicate or attribute contradictions to God, 9-2 has suggested I am attempting to put limits on God. One can also see a very similar thrust in 9-2’s responses to Tomarin.

In general though, I would agree with you. For the most part, the Christian argument is that the doctrine of the Incarnation (and Trinity) do not involve contradiction.

Then what is your argumentation?

It is worth noting that when I ask whether or not the Incarnation denotes a “change”, in those posts, I am not concerned that the Infinite is mythologically transformed into something finite and wanders the earth. I am trying to understand claims that the “Logos became flesh” or “assumed a human nature”. Does the Incarnation introduce something new to the Logos (in which case there is change) or is it eternal (in which case the Logos is constituted by something finite)? This is developed in more detail above.

And those questions have been answered ad nauseum. Repeating a question is avoiding an answer.

No, I don’t think you were. See the first comment above.

Then why did you respond as you did? With all due respect, your debating tactic seems to be: 1) make a statement; 2) backtrack and claimed you never argued such a statement.

Nothing is above, beyond or outside God. But God is Truth.

Congratulations on, once again, avoiding argumentation. To continually argue that we are bound by logic or that we must use logic as a basis of faith is to contradict the nature of the spiritual. The spiritual man must at some point go beyond the rational man’s limitations. Even the Quran admits that God is beyond reason, as you here say. Therefore, to continually use reason, logic, and other man-based methods of understanding as a rule of faith is, indeed, a contradiction of God.

I can assure you that I am not holding Christianity to a standard that I do not quite willingly apply to Islam as well.

Then please do so.

That said, the issues you raise there, even if taken as literal claims about something that actually happened, do not involve logical contradictions.

You find nothing illogical (to the rational minded man, that is) of an old man in the desert being whisked away by spiritual beings and then riding on a horse often associated with mythology up to an invisible land where he meets an invisible deity and many deceased individuals?

As I said, if you’re willing to hold the same standards to Islam as you do to Christianity, then do so.

There is no distance that God needs to bridge, because God is with us always, claiming us as God’s own.

So are the unbelievers who persecuted Mohammad God’s own? Are the hypocrites who betrayed the Muslims God’s own? Are those Muslims who break the laws of Islam still God’s own? Islam has to admit that at some point man separates himself from God, and that at some point man is separated from God. Even the Quran speaks of the devil saying he will never be able to touch God’s prophets - why, then, is there special attention given to prophets if God claims us all as His own?

Again, as I stated, the issue is not that God is distanced from man as if He is a victim of fatalism, but that man distances himself from God, and after the Fall mankind was separated from God even in the afterlife. “Do not hide Your face from me, lest I be like those who go down into the pit,” wrote the Psalmist (Psalm 143:7). What God did then was to end that enslavement to sin and death and reunite those who are willing to follow God with Him. As C.S. Lewis once said, most religions are people reaching up to God - Christianity is God reaching down to man.

You ask where we disagree. The fact is, I am speaking from the traditional Jewish mindset of the Fall and that which Christianity believes regarding the role of Christ. You are upholding beliefs about the Fall that did not exist until Islam. Therefore, when you attempt to justify the actions of Christ, you are befuddled, because you are still seeing His actions through the lens of the Quran and Mohammad. If you were to break free of those chains and have eyes to see and ears to hear, you would fully understand.

 

[Nine_Two]

Hi Nine_One,

What I’m learning about Holy Orthodoxy (to my somewhat considerable surprise) is that it is reluctant to talk about God the way that Western Christianity does, by doctrinal exposition. So it may be impossible to answer your question about which Patristic fathers or Orthodox theologians subscribe to my view that God is morally perfect and therefore incapable of evil. Still, I would think that it is an article of faith among all Christians that God is good (after all, why would he be worthy of worship if he weren’t?). That’s really all that I’m saying.

I think I’ll leave it there as I’m just beginning to understand how profound the differences are between the Eastern and Western traditions, and don’t want to mischaracterize the former (as well as expose my shameful ignorance).

That’s exactly it, and I thank you for be willing to look at how we view the world. I don’t see this difference as irreconcilable, but it still annoys me to no end when I hear people say that Catholics and Orthodox have the same outlook on God.

 

[tomarin]

That’s exactly it, and I thank you for be willing to look at how we view the world. I don’t see this difference as irreconcilable, but it still annoys me to no end when I hear people say that Catholics and Orthodox have the same outlook on God.

That must be very frustrating. I’m glad that I’m getting a chance to learn about these differences. It’s kind of blowing my mind, actually. I feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole into a whole new religious world (except it’s only new to me).

 

[dzheremi]

It’s not just you though, Tomarin. I also felt and to some extent still feel that way, and I’ve been looking at the Orthodox churches since before I joined the Roman Catholic Church several years ago.

 

[planten]

That must be very frustrating. I’m glad that I’m getting a chance to learn about these differences. It’s kind of blowing my mind, actually. I feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole into a whole new religious world (except it’s only new to me).

Tomarin, you have reminded of Alice in Wonderland. The important books always have some high moral.

Alice came to a cross road, leading into many alleys.
Alice asked the Cat “Which way should I go from here?”
The Cat replied “It all depends where you want to go…”
Alice said, “There is no particular place where I want to go.”
The cat said to Alice “Then it does not matter which way you go.”

 

[tomarin]

Tomarin, you have reminded of Alice in Wonderland. The important books always have some high moral.

Nice quote.

 

[tomarin]

It’s not just you though, Tomarin. I also felt and to some extent still feel that way, and I’ve been looking at the Orthodox churches since before I joined the Roman Catholic Church several years ago.

Well I hope you will stay Catholic of course; but I have a lot of respect for Holy Orthodoxy and understand your fascination.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

It’s not just you though, Tomarin. I also felt and to some extent still feel that way, and I’ve been looking at the Orthodox churches since before I joined the Roman Catholic Church several years ago.

one thing that those who embrace orthodoxy must repent of though, Peter is the Rock upon whom Jesus Christ built His Church. And that is scripture that cannot be denied.

 

[dzheremi]

Mhm. That certainly is one interpretation of scripture, but not the only one.

 

[Steven_John]

And that is scripture that cannot be denied.

Sure i dont deny it, i am safe in assuming you dont but Yeshua (pbwh) teaches we are to be about others.

My experience your wording quoted is incorrect, people slumbering deny it often. your statement can only be true to those who are accepting it.

For me the quote is a false or wrong guided statement, thus a lie.

When i get wrong statements, as i do too often i have to face I have been listening to unclean spirits.

I find people of the Islamic religion can often shut down at the mention of the bible and deny it all as false hood.

My experience is people who do not yet accept scripture are more moved by personal testimony.

Form personal testimony they are encouraged to draw nearer to The Church and start dialogue and become open to scripture.

When spirit filled they accept scripture as authority.

Well that is how it is in our parish.

Br Flame would you please share with us how Muslims you are bringing to your parish are always accepting this scripture?

This will help me encourage more Muslims to our parish and see you as rightly guided making statements of truth from your own experience

I have a reasonably effective way that almost supports your statmnet but would love to hear yours as there are some parts of Catholic teachings i dont fully understand. This could lead some to assume i am not in full communion with her.

I am blessed to yield to others in The Church and you have been trying to show me much.

Please now share the personal fruits of your experience with Muslims and how they cannot deny this scripture.

Bless you, i eagerly await your response.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Well basically, you can’t be in the Catholic Church in full communion with her if you do not submit to her teachings. That includes how she interprets the scriptures. You see, when you have your own interpretation of the scriptures and it contradicts what the church teaches, then you are not in line with her.

If muslims want to be in full communion with the catholic church then… I think they would be catholics at that point.

I wish you the peace of Jesus Christ
(which come to us through His Church.)