Islam an offense to our LORD.

[SonofAdam]

I’m sure the list is long.

So any person, man or woman, can stand up and claim to have a message from God. But the question is, how are the rest of us to know whether or not that individual is actually God’s messenger of truth or if they [sic] are just pretending or delusional? What objective evidence or proofs are available to demonstrate that an individual is speaking as God’s appointed messenger? What proofs does that individual messenger point to as evidence to substantiate their [sic] claims?

In Islam’s case, as I have pointed out to planten ad nausium, we have only Mohammad’s word that he is a messenger of Allah. But he insists that it is true because Mohammed said so.

First point: The Qur’an is speaking about authentic Prophets.

Second point: It is true that anyone can claim prophethood. It is also true that anyone can write a book and say ‘God inspired me to write the book’. Obviously proof has to be established to know the authenticity of claims and not just settling for blind acceptance. This approach wouldn’t even be accepted in a court of law so how about with religion where one’s soul is on the line? This is why the Muslims are against blindly following people in matters of Aqeedah (i.e. Beliefs). So the question that should be asked first is, how did the authentic Prophets of old (peace be upon all of them) demonstrate and prove their prophethood?

See PDF:

Foundation of Religion

sunnianswers.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/the-foundations-of-the-religion.pdf

 

[sedonaman]

…
See PDF:

Foundation of Religion

sunnianswers.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/the-foundations-of-the-religion.pdf

For all its claims of using right reason to prove Muhammed is a prophet, the referenced article uses incorrect reasoning itself:

“As for his miracles, they are many, but the most obvious is the Qur’an itself. The Qur’an has been preserved to the last letter, without any perversions or alterations for some 1400 years. This in itself is an extraordinary event, because no other book has been preserved in this way in human history. It is a miracle also, because the Prophet Muhammad affirmed by what was revealed to him that it would be preserved. This is a miracle then, because this claim of future preservation associated with the Prophet Muhammad, stated in the Qur’an, matches this already extraordinary preservation of 1400 years.

Added to this preservation is the fact that the Qur’an challenges anybody who opposes Prophet Muhammad’s claim to prophethood, to compose a Surahs like any of its 114 Surahs. Allah said (Al-Baqarah, 23): “If you are in doubt about what Allah has revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, then bring a Surah like any of its Surahs in eloquence, if you can, but you will not be able.”

First of all, the Qur’an has not been “preserved to the last letter”. The discovery of the Yemeni Qur’an proved that it has not been so preserved.

Second, the fact that I personally cannot produce eloquent poetry like that which is supposedly in the Qur’an proves nothing other than I cannot produce eloquent poetry. It proves nothing of the authenticity of the Qur’an. A simple example is The Iliad. The Iliad is a great epic poem much longer than the Qur’an, but my inability to produce a single page of similar quality is not proof that the Trojan War actually took place and that the Greek gods exist.

Incorrect reasoning might have worked on seventh century tribes with limited or no education, but it cannot work today.

Not that it will change your mind, but consider this

Three things are absolutely essential for science, including modem sciences. One must understand that:

a. The world exists independent of us and is orderly.
b. We can understand it.
c. We should have no aversion to observing and working with nature (in particular to do experiments).

One of the most quoted verses of the Bible in the Catholic Middle Ages was: God ‘has ordered all things in measure, number and weight. As for items b and c above, Catholicism has always emphasized the dignity of the human person, which it attributes especially to man’s ability to reason and understand starting from nature; its sacramental system manifests its belief in the necessity of the physical for man. The historians R.R. Palmer and Colton make the comparison with the culture of Islam, for example, that finally decided it was not okay to analyze the world in rational terms. Use of reason and its effectiveness in understanding this world were ultimately against the cult(ure), for according to Islam, Allah is sovereign in a sense that excludes secondary causes; according to that culture, Allah’s activity is completely inscrutable to man. Palmer and Colton say:“If any historical generalization may be made safely, it may be safely said that any society that believes reason to threaten its foundations will suppress reason. [St.] Thomas’ doctrine … gave freedom to thinkers to go on thinking. Here Latin Christendom [Catholicism] may be contrasted with the Muslim world. It was ruled, in about the time of Thomas Aquinas, that… the Gate was closed. Arabic thought, so brilliant for several centuries, went into decline.” – Palmer and Colton, A History of the Modern World, page 38.

Anthony Rizzi, The Science Before Science, page 187.

So I find it strange the article talks about right reasoning when it uses wrong reasoning right from the get-go. And I haven’t even addressed how Muhammad contradicts himself.

 

[Jehoshua]

I concur with the above post. Just because you say the Quran was preserved letter for letter because the Quran said it was doesn;t make it so.

I also add that another marks of a prophet, Conduct and consistency. For if there is inconsistency then he is a false prophet since God is most definitely not inconsistent in his word. Unlike the previous poster I’ll commit a brief foray into Quranic inconsistency.

Muhammad was a warlord, many innocents were killed because of his warmongering. He had questionable morals when it came to women. (Child wife)

This is in stark contrast to EVERY previous prophet and of course totally different to Christ.

---

As to inconsistenciees this one fits in well with moral behavior(The Quran says you should show kindness to Parents always here): ( S. 6:151; cf. 4:36 , S. 17:23-24, S. 46:15-17 ,** S. 31:14-15; cf. 29:8** , ) for kindness: the bolded one i emphasise since it says you should care for a parent despite non-islamic beliefs: This contradicts with the following: ( S. 3:28 , S. 9:23-24 , **Sura 58:22 ** ) the final one is emphasised because it is in stark contradiction to the ones imploring children to show kindness to parents even if they be non-muslim.

As to Sura.58:22 With these points in mind, it is very hard to see how Muslims are able to show kindness to their parents when they cannot even befriend or love them! After all, what type of kindness is this, which actually prohibits Muslims from even loving, let alone befriending, their parents?

Note, as well, that Q. 58:22 says that “For such He has written Faith in their hearts” which implies that for Muslims not loving even their parents is “the mark of a true believer,” being a sign that Allah has put faith in their hearts! Basically, this means that faith in Islam results in a believer receiving strength and determination to hate anyone who opposes Muhammad, even if they happen to be the closest of relatives! It forbids them to love them, to honor them, to treat them in friendship.

This to my view is clearly in opposition to Christ who says that one should love their enemies. And thus this inconsistency in Muhammads teaching in the Quran is one reason to me in a neat little package why Muhammad cannot be a prophet. As he is not consistent and his behavior and some of his teaching is starkly opposed to that of all prior Judaeo-christian prophets and teachers. Thats not to deny the fact that there is good in Islam, but it is clearly from my understanding a religion created by man, not God.

 

[GerrardLerux]

For all its claims of using right reason to prove Muhammed is a prophet, the referenced article uses incorrect reasoning itself: First of all, the Qur’an has not been “preserved to the last letter”. The discovery of the Yemeni Qur’an proved that it has not been so preserved.

The Quran was compiled in the generation after the death of Muhammad. The decision was made by his followers, without any guidance from the ‘prophet’ so the existance of a book is an abberation.

Second, the fact that I personally cannot produce eloquent poetry like that which is supposedly in the Qur’an proves nothing other than I cannot produce eloquent poetry. It proves nothing of the authenticity of the Qur’an. A simple example is The Iliad. The Iliad is a great epic poem much longer than the Qur’an, but my inability to produce a single page of similar quality is not proof that the Trojan War actually took place and that the Greek gods exist.

Who says that the Quran is ‘elegant poetry’ that cannot be reproduced? Muslims and a handful of Westerns, but not many.

And, the ‘preservation’ argument is just as bad. There are religious letters and inscriptions that date the the 3rd millenium, so I guess they are are from Allah too?

 

[sedonaman]

…
Who says that the Quran is ‘elegant poetry’ that cannot be reproduced? Muslims and a handful of Westerns, but not many.
…

Well, I’ve encountered more than a few, but that was just a concession for the sake of argument.

 

[sedonaman]

…
I also add that another marks of a prophet, Conduct and consistency. For if there is inconsistency then he is a false prophet since God is most definitely not inconsistent in his word. …

Yes, although it has been called the first test of a prophet: Does what he says conflict with previously revealed scripture? As you observed, Mohammed does conflict with prior scripture.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Listen I have NO Contempt for anyone NONE.

But what signifcance does it have to interpret the Koran? That is not our faith. Our Faith of the Roman Catholic Religion and the Vatican spells it out pretty cleary.There is no way “NONE” to go to our father God, but through Baptism in this faith? So honestly where does this leave EVERYONE else? They are NOT of our faith, so that would make the Koran and its teachings of Allah being the True God, A SIN against our God. Thats a False God.

The one and only solution is to convert, there is no other way. And I am being respectful. I do not promote War but Peace. But I cannot tell you lie, and say we can coincide in Faith? My God will not allow me to listen to anything from these other Faiths. And to debate it as if there may be some truth to it? This is abundandtly clear in the Holy Bible.

Why do you propose Islam wants YOU to talk KORAN passages? They want YOU to convert to the Islam Faith by showing you its the truth. I CLEARLY understand the Koran and it is NOT my truth. Jesus Christ is NOT a Muslim Prophet, Allah is NOT GOD, and the Blessed Mother Mary is NOT reduced to whatever they call that, because of their outlook on woman. . What TRUTH DO you believe of the Koran? Nothing in there I want anything to do with.

Me? Its NOT my FAITH, I believe NONE of it. I bow down and worship Jesus Christ the Trinity, the Blessed Mother Mary. Born into it, raised of it, and firmly believe it is the ONLY way to GOD.

Now if you want to discuss Koran for the sole purpose of converting Islam. Then I see another error there. I will disuss the Holy Bible with ANYONE, all day long till the worlds end, to convert you to my Faith. Because Jesus Christ wants me to Pray for Souls to find God. The Blessed Mother and God made this very clear to me. They want me to redeem though Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible.

But God also made it very clear to me that Islam is NOT of his world. And by the way, I been of this faith for what will be 55 years at the same Parish in September? And I Pray the Rosary daily. So I get this, I been truly, truly Blessed by God. And he will not allow me to tell you an untruth. I cannot do that.

DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE ME…We really don’t have to talk scripture. That about sums it up and its a Commandment. God makes this very clear, he’s not, suggesting, asking, He’s TELLING ME. And I NEVER EVER about another God before him. He “is” MY GOD.

And I am being respectful. You can come over over my home and ask my children how I am. They won’t lie to you. I help the poor, I’m a champion for the less fortuante, you won’t meet a more humble person. But my generosity has a limit. And that limit is when you bring another GOD before me. I didn’t arrive at this idea of the Catholic Faith recently. I dedicate my life to this belief. MY LIFE.

:Listen, I have a childhood friend who is of the Muslim Faith. He converted to Islam from being Catholic. I don’t dis-own him, and I will talk to him and respect him whenever I see him. But I don’t want to talk about the Koran with him? I’ll talk about the Bible? But heres the mystery to that. When you really are rooted in this faith. They don’t want to talk to you about faith? Where is that happening?

I don’t see the Grey. just Black and White. To me your either of this or your not. I fail to see a middle ground.

 

[sedonaman]

…
But what signifcance does it have to interpret the Koran? That is not our faith. … But I don’t want to talk about the Koran with him? I’ll talk about the Bible? But heres the mystery to that. When you really are rooted in this faith. They don’t want to talk to you about faith? Where is that happening?
…

It does no good to quote scriptures to someone who does not accept them, or who isn’t at least open to them. For example, it would do your friend no good to quote the Koran to you because you do not accept it. Likewise, when talking to Muslims, it would do no good to quote the Bible, especially the New Testament. Rather, you have to quote scripture they do accept and show them why it is wrong. St. John of Damascus used this technique [St. John of Damascus: Critique of Islam]](St. John of Damascus: Critique of Islam]) as did this analysis [biblestudying.net]](biblestudying.net]) so effectively.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I see you point.

Think about just how difficult it is, for a Christian to come to believe that the Blessed Mother can appear though an apparition? Many, many, cannot wrap there head around that very reality.

Now think it about how difficult it is to show someone the very essense of what they grew to believe as a child is wrong?

Not an easy path. You have to be a very, very open minded person to change.

Let me explain this another way. I worked in Substance Abuse for many years. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to to convince a Alcoholic that drinking is a problem in their life and they need to change? Now this “is” a negative lifestyle, we all know its negative. At least I assume you do. Yet, we have addicts and alcoholics, self destructing daily, And many will tell you, recovery is for those who think they need to change. I LIKE what I’m doing?

So there you have the struggle. Denial, the actual need to change, then the desire.

Little differentt when Jesus knocks on you door, and comes in and converts you? Yet you still have to Open the Door?

God Bless Bro,
Gary

 

[sedonaman]

I see you point.

Think about just how difficult it is, for a Christian to come to believe that the Blessed Mother can appear though an apparition? Many, many, cannot wrap there head around that very reality.

Now think it about how difficult it is to show someone the very essense of what they grew to believe as a child is wrong?

Not an easy path. You have to be a very, very open minded person to change.

Let me explain this another way. I worked in Substance Abuse for many years. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to to convince a Alcoholic that drinking is a problem in their life and they need to change? Now this “is” a negative lifestyle, we all know its negative. At least I assume you do. Yet, we have addicts and alcoholics, self destructing daily, And many will tell you, recovery is for those who think they need to change. I LIKE what I’m doing?

So there you have the struggle. Denial, the actual need to change, then the desire.

Little differentt when Jesus knocks on you door, and comes in and converts you? Yet you still have to Open the Door?

God Bless Bro,
Gary

Yup.

 

[Jehoshua]

No response from any muslim to my point on a quranic contradiction.

Quite unfortunate.

 

[SonofAdam]

Bismillah…

No response from any muslim to my point on a quranic contradiction.

Quite unfortunate.

Jehoshua said:

I concur with the above post. Just because you say the Quran was preserved letter for letter because the Quran said it was doesn’t make it so.

I agree with you on this point; otherwise that would be circular reasoning. More on this later.

I also add that another marks of a prophet, Conduct and consistency. For if there is inconsistency then he is a false prophet since God is most definitely not inconsistent in his word. Unlike the previous poster I’ll commit a brief foray into Quranic inconsistency.

Muhammad was a warlord, many innocents were killed because of his warmongering. He had questionable morals when it came to women. (Child wife)

Since you did not bring any details accept one, we can mention this briefly. Don’t throw rocks if you live in a glass house.

Dr Ali Shehata, a brother of ours, has already dealt with the issue of the Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) marriage to ‘Aa’isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) in extreme detail and here are the contents of the lecture he gave;

1) Cultural norms of the era of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)
2) Different attacks by the disbelievers of his time without mentioning his marriage to ‘Aa’isha (may Allaah be pleased with her)
3) Marital practices of the 7th Century
4) Marriage practice in Europe during the Renaissance and India
5) Encyclopedia Britannica on English Common Law
6) Marriage within the Talmudic law of the Jews
7) Explanation of English Common Law
8) How Common Law is related to Christianity (quote from Catholic Encyclopedia)
9) Christian Marital Doctrine
10) Catholic Pio-Benedictine Code
11) Maryland State Law in 1998
12) Consent in marriage in Christianity
13) Medical aspects related to puberty and adolescence
14) Modern puberty information
15) Did Islam invent such a concept?
16) What became of ‘Aa’isha’s (may Allaah be pleased with her) marriage?
17) Comment by Dr. Annie Besant
18) Pedophilia within Christianity

Lecture here:

islamictube.net/watch/c4ec58c0063a90deb396/Dr.-Ali-Shehata—Prophets-Marriage-to-Aisha

This is in stark contrast to EVERY previous prophet and of course totally different to Christ.

It is unfortunate that your book, and we are free from these distortions, describes Prophet Lut [Lot] (peace be upon him) - Prophet Abraham’s pure nephew) –peace be upon him- as a drunkard and as having slept with both of his daughters, one older and the other younger, and they both got pregnant and no punishments came from that! See Genesis chap 19 verses 30-38.

Continuation below…

 

[SonofAdam]

This is in stark contrast to EVERY previous prophet and of course totally different to Christ.

It is unfortunate that your book, and we are free from these distortions, describes Prophet Lut [Lot] (peace be upon him) - Prophet Abraham’s pure nephew) –peace be upon him- as a drunkard and as having slept with both of his daughters, one older and the other younger, and they both got pregnant and no repercussions came from that! See Genesis chap 19 verses 30-38.

---

As to inconsistenciees this one fits in well with moral behavior(The Quran says you should show kindness to Parents always here): ( S. 6:151; cf. 4:36 , S. 17:23-24, S. 46:15-17 , S. 31:14-15; cf. 29:8 , ) for kindness: the bolded one i emphasise since it says you should care for a parent despite non-islamic beliefs: This contradicts with the following: ( S. 3:28 , S. 9:23-24 , Sura 58:22 ) the final one is emphasised because it is in stark contradiction to the ones imploring children to show kindness to parents even if they be non-muslim.

As to Sura.58:22 With these points in mind, it is very hard to see how Muslims are able to show kindness to their parents when they cannot even befriend or love them! After all, what type of kindness is this, which actually prohibits Muslims from even loving, let alone befriending, their parents?

This to my view is clearly in opposition to Christ who says that one should love their enemies. And thus this inconsistency in Muhammads teaching in the Quran is one reason to me in a neat little package why Muhammad cannot be a prophet. As he is not consistent and his behavior and some of his teaching is starkly opposed to that of all prior Judaeo-christian prophets and teachers. Thats not to deny the fact that there is good in Islam, but it is clearly from my understanding a religion created by man, not God.

These aren’t inconsistencies but just your lack of understanding of the texts. In Islam we have a concept called Al walaa wal baraa (loyalty and disloyalty for the sake of Allaah). When looked at as a whole, we understand and are obligated to show kindness to our parents whether they are Muslim or non Muslim. However; this love IS CONDITIONAL and not UNCONDITIONAL. Unconditional love is only for Allaah. Generally, people have natural love towards their relatives and nothing is wrong with this but revelation tells us not to go to extremes in this love. If they transgress bounds we hate them just as we would anyone else who fight us for our belief and so forth. We know and understand that our parents and anyone else are only created beings, created by Allaah and that we only obey them in what is good and not in what is bad. How do we, as Muslims, judge right from wrong, by revelation. Our parents are not protected from error, they are not Prophets, and we were not commanded to worship them. We have been commanded to worship and to love Allaah more than anything else. Our understanding is the same as all of the Prophets including Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) when he was asked by the scribes:

"…Which is the first commandment of all? "

Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) said;

" The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: And thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. " Mark 12: 29-30 ]

First notice the emphasis on Tawheed (The teaching that God is One Absolute, with no equal or like and its opposite is Shirk-to ascribe partners to God) then he shows tremendous emphasis on how to God belongs the highest form of love and devotion, no one else. Whatever your Creator commands you to do you do it, no matter who tries to prevent you. If you dismiss the commands of Allaah for the commands of men, this is a form of Shirk (polytheism) and ones claim to truly believe in The Creator was just words that passed through his/her mouth. If you love others the same as you love the Creator, this is Shirk of love. If you love them as you love God, then you never really understood the first commandment and you would be willing to obey creation equally or more than you obey The Creator of the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Qur’an says –translation-:

2:165- Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah.: They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty.

A believer can only have one master. Another example of conditional love within the bible is when Jesus (peace be upon him) said:

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39)

If this doesn’t sound like loyalty and disloyalty for the cause, I don’t know what is.

All praise be to Allaah, the Lord of all that exist.

 

[SonofAdam]

sedonaman,

Your post will be responded to soon insha’Allaah.

 

[SonofAdam]

For all its claims of using right reason to prove Muhammed is a prophet, the referenced article uses incorrect reasoning itself:
First of all, the Qur’an has not been “preserved to the last letter”. The discovery of the Yemeni Qur’an proved that it has not been so preserved.

Second, the fact that I personally cannot produce eloquent poetry like that which is supposedly in the Qur’an proves nothing other than I cannot produce eloquent poetry. It proves nothing of the authenticity of the Qur’an. A simple example is The Iliad. The Iliad is a great epic poem much longer than the Qur’an, but my inability to produce a single page of similar quality is not proof that the Trojan War actually took place and that the Greek gods exist.

Incorrect reasoning might have worked on seventh century tribes with limited or no education, but it cannot work today.

Not that it will change your mind, but consider this
So I find it strange the article talks about right reasoning when it uses wrong reasoning right from the get-go. And I haven’t even addressed how Muhammad contradicts himself.

To sedonaman,

Since this was in response to the PDF file made by Shaykh Abu Adam, may Allaah preserve him, it would be more fitting for him to respond to your comments. Also, if you need more clarification or have more comments, you can respond at the address below. His response to your comments can be found in the comments section here:

sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/foundations-of-the-religion-pdf/#comment-2202

 

[Alcrusader]

Prophet Lut [Lot] (peace be upon him)

Lot is not a Prophet!! nor Adam!!!

 

[Alcrusader]

Islam an offense to our LORD.

One true Fact.

 

[jakasaki]

…

It is unfortunate that your book, and we are free from these distortions, describes Prophet Lut [Lot] (peace be upon him) - Prophet Abraham’s pure nephew) –peace be upon him- as a drunkard and as having slept with both of his daughters, one older and the other younger, and they both got pregnant and no punishments came from that! See Genesis chap 19 verses 30-38.

…

Lot is **not **a prophet under Judaism and Lot is **not **a prophet under Christianity.

Only islam made Lot a prophet.