Islam and corruption in the bible

[KathleenGee]

I am somewhat saddened to see the same arguments go around and around…no communication…

How many times has it been said that the Holy Trinity is a name we Christians use to define God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One…

It is a matter of simplicity we say Holy Trinity.

The Apostolic Church carries on the original intent of Jesus Christ through His Apostles for 2,000 years, and the Holy Spirit guides us…this is the traditional understanding of Scriptures…

If you are always in the position to negate Christianity-- which is truly outside your world and culture…and make all sorts of claims of being authority about it – and us – that is no position at all. You are in no position to learn authentic Christianity.

I don’t know the Koran. I don’t make any claims to knowing things outside my framework of faith and the culture I live in … I may have some understanding of those other places I have lived in…but I am no authority.

Muslims should only claim knowledge of their Koran in context to their own culture. But not ours. And to make claim about the Bible, about the life of Christ…you cannot convince us with new information created outside and beyond the defining time of the Nicene Creed. The Holy Spirit guides us and protects the true faith…the Shepherd knows us and we know Him…even the sword cannot destroy the spirit of Jesus and the continuation of faith in Him…

So I get sad seeing Christians over and over answer the same questions or disputes over and over…so that it is more of a game to taunt. I have learned about some of the Muslim groups here and gained knowledge. But I am coming to the conclusion on CAF that it is better to pray for others than be in such disputes.

 

[Seeker]

Not all parts of earlier scriptures have been corrupted and they have indeed retained some of their profound truths which could have come only from Almighty God Himself.

So an infallible all knowing GOD believed by Jews, Christians and Muslims allowed parts of his scriptures to be corrupted and safeguarded others??, are you serious hanba2han!!!, do u know by saying what YOU just said, you have insulted Allah!, YOU have insulted Allah by basically calling him a deceiver, a GOD that has no power over his creation!

The great news is that Muslims have been given the Furqan i.e. the Criterion by which to filter out the corrupted segments of earlier scriptures from the profound truths that are undoubtedly found in them.

This Furqan is of course the noble Qur’an.

LOL, that’s your great news, the Quran!!..sorry i am seriously laughing out loud here reading this. Okay show me using the Quran and only the Quran, what words, paragraphs, chapters…etc were corrupted in the previous scriptures? When a claim of such magnitude is presented, then there should also be proof, correct? It’s like if a Christian or Jew made a statement saying “some parts of the quran is true, and the rest are all corrupted” muslims on this thread/forum would ask, show me the proof ??

Think of the difference between earlier scriptures and the Qur’an in the following terms:

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/948/15022240.JPG http://earth911.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/water-jug.jpg

Which of the two water containers would you want to drink from?.. If you pick the second container, then you have indeed chosen to believe in the truth of the Qur’an.

hamba2han, seriously this is a ridiculous analogy, because i can turnaround using your same example of water, and I ask you the same question

Think of the difference between Holy Bible and the qur’an in the following terms:

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/948/15022240.JPG http://earth911.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/water-jug.jpg

Which of the two water containers would you want to drink from?.. If you pick the second container, then you have indeed chosen to believe in the truth of the Holy Bible

do you see why your analogy has no relevance in what is being asked/discussed. Therefore i suggest, please just provide us with the proof from the Quran which words, paragraphs, chapters…etc have been corrupted!

Seeker

 

[planten]

do you see why your analogy has no relevance in what is being asked/discussed. Therefore i suggest, please just provide us with the proof from the Quran which words, paragraphs, chapters…etc have been corrupted!

Seeker

For proving corruption, it is necessary that we know the original language in which the BibleNT was revealed. And that language should be mentioned in the bible itself. Not some one saying it ws Araimic, Greek, Hebrew.

For example, it is written in the Quran that it is revealed in pure Clear Arabic. It is also written in the Quran itself that the Quran has been revealed from Allah on the heart of Muhammad. That is a news direct from Allah. Catholics will not believe that. So we will not oppress them for that. But the news about language and the prophet (name) is mentioned in the book itself. We do not find any such thing in bibleNT.

It is admitted by Catholics that the bible (gospel) is the work of some disciples only under inspiration. So it is no more a direct word of God. Inspiration (or intuition) is not of the high level of revelation (Wahi).

If the original language of the bible was known then we would have looked for an original document in that language. It was then possible to find out and to compare the present day copies (Translations) with the original. But there is no original. So there cannot be any comparison to find out which part is altered.

I would not like to use the word “Corruption” in the bible. A better word could be alterations, or amendment and alterations (a’s & a’s). Such things have been going on in the bibleNT for a very long time for an improvement of the sacred book.

But does a sacred book need improvement. I mean, even though, it is being done in the translations only, but that is causing much confusion. There are so many versions of the bibles roaming about. No harm to us Muslims. It is harmful to the christians. Due to such deviations in words, many new branches have come out in christianity such as mormons and JW’s.

The mormons and JW’s are denied recognition. But they claim to be all for Jesus christ. So how to get rid of them. There is no way.

It is dificult to show actual words which have been altered in bible because there is no original. But we have proof from the beliefs in Trinity etc. which shows that there have been serious deflections. I do not know about the original sin theory if it is acceptable to Jews. That could be another major difference.

Then the news of one man (Jesus) dying for the sins of all mankind could be another major difference.

Beside those above, there is news of a son of God and a man God etc. Such beliefs tell us that there have been some alterations. God would not teach one thing to Jews and then send a messenger (Jesus) amongst the same people (Jews) trying to teach them quite the opposite of what they had known for centuries.

This matter cannot be settled unless we bring in the Jews. Because Jesus was all for the Jews, not against them at all. So ask the Jews please about your bibleNT. First take some decision from the Jews and then we may confirm or deny the news given in Quran about bibleNT.

I do not say that bibleNT is corrupted. BibleNt is acceptable to me even in its present form.

 

[Nine_Two]

(instead, Planten took it up with the maximum amount of nonsense that I can take in a day)

Yep, I’ve just got Planten on ignore. I figure if he actually posts something relevent someone will quote it.

 

[hamba2han]

Then prove it Hamba, that’s what I asked for in the OP.

This poignant reminder from BibleGateway.com is just a tiny sampling of what I would consider to be proof of the corruption of the Bible:.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do NOT have Mark 16:9-20.))…

… And so then, which of the following Biblical verses is more likely to be true?

EITHER

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL creation. … (Mark 16:15)

OR

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 15:24)

and also

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 10:5-6)

OR

… perhaps Christians are saying that there is NO contradiction between the above Biblical verses found in Mark and Matthew?

It makes absolutely no sense at all that Jesus (pbuh) would spend the entire period of his ministry preaching only to the lost sheep of Israel and then immediately after his alleged crucifixion orders his disciples to go to all nations and preach to all people.

If the divine message that he brought was intended for all of humankind, then why couldn’t he declare it in no uncertain terms right from the beginning of his mission like what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

How was the danger to his life faced by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) any lesser than the danger that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) faced in carrying out his own mission?

The Lord protected Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from his enemies and so why couldn’t He do the same for Prophet Jesus (pbuh)?

If I were to accept the Christian explanation that it was all part of the grand strategy of God, then I would have to conclude that Jesus (pbuh) … and by extension God Himself… intentionally lied when he said “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel” in Matthew 15:24.

I just cannot accept that it was necessary for Jesus (pbuh), or any of the Prophets of God (peace be upon them all), to lie about their mission because this is something which clearly breaks one of the Ten Commandments not to bear false witness.

How on earth is it possible that a true Prophet of God will intentionally break any of the Commandments in order to spread the Message of the Lord?

And so, there you have it folks, actual proof & confirmation from the dedicated research of respected Biblical scholars that the contents of the Bible has indeed been seriously altered.

 

[schaick]

The Quran confirms the Holy Bible, or at least the Torah and Gospel.

2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

2:136 Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah.”

3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law and the Gospel before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion.

5:44 That We descended the Torah/Old Testament, in it guidance and light, the prophets those who submitted/surrendered , judge/rule with it, to those who guided/Jews , and the knowledgeable Lord worshippers , and the religious scholars with what they memorized/safe kept from God’s Book , and they were not on it witnessing/present ; so do not fear the people and fear Me, and do not buy/volunteer with My signs/verses a small price, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the disbelievers.

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:47 And the New Testament’s/Bible’s people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

5.66 If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

5:68 Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over people without Faith.

6:154 Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

I have not seen the quranic verse that says the Holy Bible was corrupted.

Muslims may not realize that we have the writings of our earliest Church Fathers that referenced Scripture.

I have read that even if all the manuscripts were lost they could have reproduced GOD’s Word from the various writings of those early Church Fathers.

 

[Nine_Two]

This poignant reminder from BibleGateway.com is just a tiny sampling of what I would consider to be proof of the corruption of the Bible:.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do NOT have Mark 16:9-20.))…

And the fact that early manuscripts are missing that portion doesn’t change the theology at all. Not that the portion doesn’t cover important theology, but it is theology which is covered three times over. Take those verses out and the theology of the bible is the exact same.

… And so then, which of the following Biblical verses is more likely to be true?

They don’t contradict at all. It’s not an either/or situation.

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL creation. … (Mark 16:15)

A command to the Apostles.

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 15:24)

As Christ mentioned many times during his ministry, because of the Old Covenant, the Jews were to be given the Gospel first, only when they rejected it (by killing him), was it to be given to gentiles.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." … (Matthew 10:5-6)

As I said above, while he was alive, and the Jews had not yet rejected him, the message was for the Jews.

… perhaps Christians are saying that there is NO contradiction between the above Biblical verses found in Mark and Matthew?

None at all. Context is important. They were stated at different times.

It makes absolutely no sense at all that Jesus (pbuh) would spend the entire period of his ministry preaching only to the lost sheep of Israel and then immediately after his alleged crucifixion orders his disciples to go to all nations and preach to all people.

Of course it does, he said multiple times over the course of his ministry that his message would be sent to the gentiles after the Jews rejected it.

If the divine message that he brought was intended for all of humankind, then why couldn’t he declare it in no uncertain terms right from the beginning of his mission like what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

Exactly what message is he going to bring to the Gentiles? There was no reason for them to believe him. Unlike the Jews, he was not prophecied of in Gentile scripture. His death and resurrection were necessary.

How was the danger to his life faced by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) any lesser than the danger that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) faced in carrying out his own mission?

What does that have to do with anything?

The Lord protected Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from his enemies and so why couldn’t He do the same for Prophet Jesus (pbuh)?

He did, multiple times. If you actually read the Gospel’s instead of quoting them off some site you’d see this. Christ went willingly to the cross, at a time of his choosing. The death and resurrection were necessary final steps in spreading his message.

If I were to accept the Christian explanation that it was all part of the grand strategy of God, then I would have to conclude that Jesus (pbuh) … and by extension God Himself… intentionally lied when he said "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" in Matthew 15:24.

Why would one have to conclude that? Have you read the rest of that parable? How does the woman respond to him? How does he in turn respond to her?

I just cannot accept that it was necessary for Jesus (pbuh), or any of the Prophets of God (peace be upon them all), to lie about their mission because this is something which clearly breaks one of the Ten Commandments not to bear false witness.

While I’ve already explained this isn’t a lie, I must point out your own (Sahih) hadiths condone lying.

How on earth is it possible that a true Prophet of God will intentionally break any of the Commandments in order to spread the Message of the Lord?

And again, he didn’t.

And so, there you have it folks, actual proof & confirmation from the dedicated research of respected Biblical scholars that the contents of the Bible has indeed been seriously altered.

Such arrogance is unbecoming, especially when you have proven no such thing.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, we have plentiful evidence in the Bible from the testimony of;

1. God the Father, the voice from heaven
2. Jesus, the Son of God
3. The Angel Gabriel
4. The Devil
5. Unclean spirits
6. The Apostles
7. The Centurion who witnessed Jesus’ death
8. People who have been cured in Jesus’ name
   (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=428967)

The Qur’an denies Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Evidence? The Prophet Muhammed claimed that Allah revealed it to him.

Islam is confused regarding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=428954

Can the Qur’an really be believed as the final, truthful and divinely inspired word of God?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I have not seen the quranic verse that says the Holy Bible was corrupted.

Hamba provided some earlier in this thread.

I can provide sahih hadith sources (if I haven’t already) that quote the companions of the prophet telling Muslims that the Christian/Jewish scriptures are corrupt.

 

[LtTony]

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Since you are asking for our point of view, I give here.

Jesus was not dead at all. He was not buried in a way that dead people should be buried. No burial rites were performed on Jesus. he was just laid in an airy, wide tomb where he remained for some time only.

Then Jesus (Living Jesus) was removed to another more comfortable safe place very carefuly.

There, Jesus was treated for his wounds by the Physician Nicodemus who had brought about 40 kilogram of herbs. It is better that we believe these true things about Jesus instead of your half hearted effort. These are facts mentioned in the bibleNT. Nobody applies curative herbs to any dead body.

Your source?

I asked earlier for your source. Maybe I missed it.

 

[abucs]

Planten,

you say that we have to know the original language of the bible. The bible is a colloection of books written in Hebrew and Greek and perhaps Aramaic.There is no single original language of the bible.

You say that the Koran says Jesus was originally given the bible. The bible as mentioned above is a collection of books, many of which were written well after his ressurrection (or departure if you prefer).

What bible was Jesus ever given ?
Where is it now ?
Who referred to it ?
Which writing today comes closest to it ?

For example, the 4 gospels are accounts of the life of Jesus. Was Jesus given a book about his own life by the Allah the koran talks about ?

If not then what was Muhhammad talking about when he refers to the scriptures of the Christians ?

Please answer these questions and show some sort of possibility that Jesus was given any written account at all about anything by anyone.

Otherwise it’s like me saying that saint Paul had a pet dog named Sandy. It is just unsupported nonsense.

 

[planten]

Regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, we have plentiful evidence in the Bible from the testimony of;

1. God the Father, the voice from heaven
2. Jesus, the Son of God
3. The Angel Gabriel
4. The Devil
5. Unclean spirits
6. The Apostles
7. The Centurion who witnessed Jesus’ death
8. People who have been cured in Jesus’ name
   (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=428967)

The Qur’an denies Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Evidence? The Prophet Muhammed claimed that Allah revealed it to him.

Islam is confused regarding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=428954

Can the Qur’an really be believed as the final, truthful and divinely inspired word of God?

A good, wise, humble, gentle, logical post from the Vile servant.

I would only disagree with the Quran being confused about crucifixion. Some christian monk tried to confuse and mislead the Muslims that it was not Jesus on the cross. They ignorantly took the bait. There is no confusion. Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross. He appeared to be dead. The Jews could not kill Jesus in any other way too.

 

[planten]

I asked earlier for your source. Maybe I missed it.

LtTony, sorry about it. I do not rememeber that I replied. i had seen your post. But may not have replied. here is my post again that you asked for references:

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten
Since you are asking for our point of view, I give here.

Jesus was not dead at all. He was not buried in a way that dead people should be buried. No burial rites were performed on Jesus. he was just laid in an airy, wide tomb where he remained for some time only.

I hope you would not ask me source for the above words in bold. There only remains the words " Jesus was not dead at all". Please Leave that for the time being.

Then Jesus (Living Jesus) was removed to another more comfortable safe place very carefuly

.
The source for this is the bible.It is reported some where that the friends of Jesus fearing further search and attack by his enemies, removed Jesus (within an hour) from the tomb to a better safer place. I am not an expert on this subject. But I would like to get to the root of that good news.

There, Jesus was treated for his wounds by the Physician Nicodemus who had brought about 40 kilogram of herbs. It is better that we believe these true things about Jesus instead of your half hearted effort. These are facts mentioned in the bibleNT. Nobody applies curative herbs to any dead body.

Here also, please note that the matter about Nicodemus and the herbs is written in gospels. I will try to get the reference. It is source is The BibleNT.

**Your source? **

I hope I have replied now.

 

[planten]

Planten,

you say that we have to know the original language of the bible. The bible is a colloection of books written in Hebrew and Greek and perhaps Aramaic.There is no single original language of the bible.

Yes, very good valid question. That is the way we want it to be. The language in which bible is revealed should better be described in bible itself. But since we do not have any such thing so we have to proceed further. Your saying that bible was a colletion of books written in different laguages could be accepted.

If we cannot find the language in which bible could have been revealed to Jesus then at least we must know the language in which Jesus addressed his public. Please advise about that.

You say that the Koran says Jesus was originally given the bible. The bible as mentioned above is a collection of books, many of which were written well after his ressurrection (or departure if you prefer).

That is also true. The bible as a collection of books are indeed written by other persons after Jesus departed. So, apparantly, they could not be the bible given to Jesus. So either Muslims will have to amend (correct) their beliefs about bible or no bible was given to Jesus. We will look into it soon.

What bible was Jesus ever given

?
I cannot say that any bible in book form was given to Jesus.

Where is it now ?

There is no such thing that may have been given to Jesus in written book form.

Who referred to it ?

I cannot tell. But the Quran says that Jesus was given the Injeel (gospel). And he was aided, supported by the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the angel gabriel who brings messages to the messengers.

So messages were definitely given to Jesus from God. In that was the guidance. It is similar way that God guided other prophets. That guidance was later committed to writing at some time. That is clear if we see the work of the prophets of the childen of Israel.

They seem to be speaking, saying, “So says your Lord…” How do they know what their Lord is saying?? There must have beena messenger (angel) from God who informed them.

Similary; since the othe rprophets (messengers) of the Jews were conveyed guidance and it was committed to writing somehow, in the same way,Jesus being on of the same kind had similar experiance.

I feel, if we take Jesus as one of the messengers (last prophet) of the Jews, his case becomes same as others who appeared after Moses. They were not given any book in written form.Yet their books are very much part of the bibleOT and recognised by all Muslism and christians. Similarly is the case of Jesus. We hope we will soon to get to some point.

Which writing today comes closest to it ?

I can only say that the 4 gospels only come close to what Jesus was given

For example, the 4 gospels are accounts of the life of Jesus. Was Jesus given a book about his own life by the Allah the koran talks about ?

Thanks to you that youguided me. I had already reached the same conclusion, as you in above lines. The present day gospels are representing the Injeel (bible). Jesus was not given any book about his own life. But he was given true frends and followers to kept his words and reproduced them in book form.

If not then what was Muhhammad talking about when he refers to the scriptures of the Christians ?

Muhammad (or Quran) is definitely reporting about the guidance given to Jesus and names it as Injeel. There is no doubt about that. It also reports about the guidance given to Moses and calls that the book of law (Taurat). It also admits guidance given to many (many) prophets after Moses and before John the baptist.

That is also true because we see the books of some of them in the bibleOT.

Please answer these questions and show some sort of possibility that Jesus was given any written account at all about anything by anyone

.
I cannot show any such thing and I do not believe that Jesus or Muhammad was given any book in written form. But Muhammad was given the words and he got them written down and memorised.
Similarly, Jesus was teaching and pearching openly. Masses of people heard him speak. So that was the guidance given to Jesus which was committed to writing later by his friends. It was the duty (promise) of Allah that words of Jesus should never be forgotten. So Allah made such arrangement that those words were recorded. Well and good.Praise be to God.

Otherwise it’s like me saying that saint Paul had a pet dog named Sandy. It is just unsupported nonsense.

No, No, please do not say that Paul had a pet dog…

 

[abucs]

OK Planten, we seem to agree on most of that.

thanks for your replies.

So you are saying, from your perspective, that what was revealed to Jesus was a message not a book or any writing and that ‘the People of the Book’ are simply those that followed The Torah and/or the New Testament and the book (New testament) may not be corrupted (because there was no original book from Jesus) but that the message were corrupted prior to the New Testament writing.

This would make better chronological sense and address most of my questions.

So perhaps the “Jesus” question is largely a matter of accepting “contemporary” Christian sources and subsequent history or “Divinely inspired” Islamic sources and subsequent history or neither. ??

 

[planten]

OK Planten, we seem to agree on most of that.

thanks for your replies.

So you are saying, from your perspective, that what was revealed to Jesus was a message not a book or any writing and that ‘the People of the Book’ are simply those that followed The Torah and/or the New Testament and the book (New testament) may not be corrupted (because there was no original book from Jesus) but that the message were corrupted prior to the New Testament writing.

Yes the above is correct except that I would not say anything about corruption in the bibleNT, how and when things were added/subtracted. That is not my mission and I am not competent to say about that. No written book wa sgiven to Jesus or Moses or Muhammad. Only a few (may be two) tablets are mentioned given to Moses.

This would make better chronological sense and address most of my questions.

So perhaps the “Jesus” question is largely a matter of accepting “contemporary” Christian sources and subsequent history or “Divinely inspired” Islamic sources and subsequent history or neither. ??

Yes, almost that. But accepting anything would need to keep in mind the strict rules about God and the prophets and angels and the previous teachings of the Jews, keeping in mind the important pinciples of beliefs. If anything violates any rule then we have to be careful. There is a book titled “Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth”. That may help further to understand things.

I hope you understand that general knowledge is also important. The priciples of truth and reason are to be applied in taking up any theology. So in:
…** matter of accepting “contemporary” Christian sources and subsequent history or “Divinely inspired” Islamic sources and subsequent history or neither… **please add some rationality etc as I have described above. Nobody need accept any false doctrine which is un-natural and appears to be wrong Same is the case with Quran. If something is proved wrong then it may not be believed.

Also, we are to remember that Science is the work of God. Sacred scriptures are the words of God. There cannot be serious (or any) disparity between the work of God and the words of God. The words should describe the work of God (Science, Nature). If there is any disparity, we should try to resolve the difference by some sensible means.

It is a long subject. I thank you for reminding me about the books that were given to prophets. I am not sure if I am right. But the truth may be nearby. I will not say that bibleNT gospels are corrupted.

 

[schaick]

Hamba provided some earlier in this thread.

I can provide sahih hadith sources (if I haven’t already) that quote the companions of the prophet telling Muslims that the Christian/Jewish scriptures are corrupt.

Wasn’t that verse on hiding Scripture? As in Scribes, Scholars, Priests, whoevr hiding Scripture from the common people, not telling them the full message?

Nothing about the message being changed or corrupted.

Muslims are very literal they demand to see the Bible say Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a Trinity mentioned in the Bible verse.

LOL!! I demand to see Christans corrupted their Gospelin a verse in the Quran.

Yes, but Quran trumps hadith.

 

[schaick]

This is pretty much all the evidence that I would care to find out about.

Whether or not it would “hold up in a Western Court of Law”, I really do not have a clue.

However, the more pertinent question would be → Would these judges who are presiding over the case in this Western Court of Law, themselves end up in Paradise or the Hell-fire?

After all, the destiny of the believer and the unbeliever in the Hereafter is what questions of faith are all about, are they not?

You speak of contradictions in the Holy Bible- a collection of Books written by some 40 GOD inspired people over thousand + years and your allah can’t even remember the wording of his own quotes!!

Is it:
3.40 He said: “O my Lord! How shall I have son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?” “Thus,” was the answer, “Doth Allah accomplish what He willeth.”

or:
19.8 He said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?”

Is it:
15.28
YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter’s clay of black mud altered,
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape

or:
38.71
YUSUFALI: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire,
SHAKIR: When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:

This is the most telling one. Is it:
7.24 (Allah) said: “Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time.”

or

20.123 He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

 

[hamba2han]

You speak of contradictions in the Holy Bible- a collection of Books written by some 40 GOD inspired people over thousand + years and your allah can’t even remember the wording of his own quotes!!

Is it:
3.40 He said: “O my Lord! How shall I have son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?” “Thus,” was the answer, “Doth Allah accomplish what He willeth.”

or:
19.8 He said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?”

Is it:
15.28
YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter’s clay of black mud altered,
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape

or:
38.71
YUSUFALI: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire,
SHAKIR: When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:

This is the most telling one. Is it:
7.24 (Allah) said: “Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time.”

or

20.123 He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

I can immediately see two problems here:

1. You are relying on the English translation of the Qur’an.
2. You are assuming that the Lord spoke only briefly to Adam and Eve when He told them to leave the Garden. It could have been a long talk that He had with them, only Allah will know this.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Wasn’t that verse on hiding Scripture? As in Scribes, Scholars, Priests, whoevr hiding Scripture from the common people, not telling them the full message?

Nothing about the message being changed or corrupted.

That is ultimately what is inferred, because it has to be. And that is how many of the companions of the prophet took it and how they instructed the Muslims regarding what came before.

Narrated 'Ikrima:
Ibn 'Abbas said, “How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about their Books while you have Allah’s Book (the Qur’an) which is the most recent of the Books revealed by Allah, and you read it in its pure undistorted form?” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 613]

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, “O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 614]

The Quran therefore presents a problem: it claims to be in line with the Torah and the Gospel, but its followers then have to argue corruption because of the blatant contradictions between the Bible and Quran.