Islam and Heaven or paradise, do women go where men go when they die?

[Mirdath]

I will have more respect for moslems when all those billion(?) rise up against those who kill mindlessly in the name of their religion. When they march in the streets in opposition to the violence perpetrated by their brethren.

They are marching. They are protesting by the thousands in Morocco, Jordan, Iraq, even DC, imams and ordinary Muslims are speaking out – and because they are peaceful, good, calm people, they are not newsworthy.

You claim to be an agnostic. So what? You are merely just another kafir, to be either exploited or killed. Don’t preach to me about tolerance.

Not that long ago, I would have had to fear for my safety in Christian countries for being an apostate. I’m just as bad in your eyes as you claim to be in theirs.

An apostate reminding a Christian of the duty to love. Think about it. I’d laugh if it weren’t so heartbreaking.

I will trust and respect them when they prove themselves worthy of trust and respect.

Is not being human enough?

Eden:

Speaking of getting to know good people who are not like you, can you explain why it is forbidden in Islam for Muslims to befriend non-Muslims?

I am not defending individual tenets of Islam, and I have gone so far as to say I have serious issues with some. What I am defending is the dignity of a faith that has been unjustly and unnecessarily trampled on.

I don’t know why you were under the impression that Christians loved these things.

I am not. I am, however, slowly gaining the impression that certain Christians love being Right at the expense of being correct, love belittling and demeaning honest searches for the same deity they worship, love using their faith as a club against others. I do not want to think this, but when I see how these people treat other faiths, especially Islam, I find I have little choice.

BelFarfalla:

Let’s see… ‘Islam is a diabolical faith inspired by Satan’ is really right up there with the themes are Muslims friends have come here using… “The bible is a lie written by men to justify their sins.” The statements both mean the same thing. The fault is on all sides… not all loud arguments are bad, sometimes they get under people’s skins and make them think longer on a subject.

Claiming a faith actively evil is a more serious thing than claiming it merely fabricated. I do not dispute that there can be hatred and a lack of respect in the other direction, too, and wish it were not so just as much; however, this being a primarily-Catholic board, the problem of some Catholics’ hatred and xenophobia is much more pervasive and visible.

 

[Eden]

Is not being human enough?

No, it isn’t. Evil people do not deserve respect simply for being human. I don’t respect Stalin or Hitler or Mae Tse-Tung either. Yet, they were “human”.

 

[Mirdath]

No, it isn’t. Evil people do not deserve respect simply for being human. I don’t respect Stalin or Hitler or Mae Tse-Tung either. Yet, they were “human”.

Are you not commanded to love your enemy? And are you saying that all Muslims are evil?

 

[Ella]

I have a question, Mirdath. What would the members of a religion have to do before it’s OK, to you, to say that that religion is bad?

 

[Mirdath]

I have a question, Mirdath. What would the members of a religion have to do before it’s OK, to you, to say that that religion is bad?

Why would the members come into it at all? They’re human, good and bad and in between, just like the rest of us. Every religion, and atheism and agnosticism too, has a sizable sample of each.

For a religion to be bad, I draw the line at divinely mandated human sacrifice.

It’s funny, you’d think that as a godless heathen I’d be more than ready to condemn any and all religions, especially seeing the historical and modern atrocities and injustices committed in the name of God; but for all the horrors perpetrated under the banner of faith, I can’t ignore the great good that has been done in the same cause.

 

[Eden]

Are you not commanded to love your enemy? And are you saying that all Muslims are evil?

Loving you enemy does not mean loving the evil that they do. Many Muslims have done evil deeds in the name of Allah.

I don’t think you understand the meaning of “love your enemy”. So, I will explain it to you:

Challenging injustice is not inconsistent with loving those who are responsible for that injustice. “Love” is not always the same as “being nice.” For example, taking the car keys away from a drunk friend would be a better way of loving her than avoiding a confrontation by letting her drive drunk, because, ultimately, taking away the keys could save her life.

Similarly, challenging the unjust actions of an enemy calls him to respect his own life and dignity. When an enemy is challenged in love, the ultimate goal is not to defeat him or have power over him. Rather, the goal of action based in love is to restore the enemy’s relationships–with his own dignity, with other people, and with God.

Have I advocated a retaliatory justice against Islamic terrorists, for instance? No, I haven’t.

“Loving your enemy” does not mean accepting evil or letting them avoid responsibility for what they have done.

 

[Mirdath]

Loving you enemy does not mean loving the evil that they do.

It does mean respecting them as people, which duty you seem inclined to gloss over.

 

[Ella]

Why would the members come into it at all? They’re human, good and bad and in between, just like the rest of us. Every religion, and atheism and agnosticism too, has a sizable sample of each.

For a religion to be bad, I draw the line at divinely mandated human sacrifice.

It’s funny, you’d think that as a godless heathen I’d be more than ready to condemn any and all religions, especially seeing the historical and modern atrocities and injustices committed in the name of God; but for all the horrors perpetrated under the banner of faith, I can’t ignore the great good that has been done in the same cause.

I’ve been a godless heathen before. I never condemned all religions though; I simply saw them as misguided and foolish.

I also want to say that I generally enjoy your posts and point of view.

Re: behavior of members of a religion: well, if the members of a religion are committing evil acts in the practice of following their religion, then that’s when I have a problem with those members.
So - I do have a problem with any religion that stones homosexuals to death. for example. And I also have a problem with any religion that sanctions killing of apostates.

 

[Eden]

It does mean respecting them as people, which duty you seem inclined to gloss over.

I haven’t glossed over anything. You have glossed over the fact that I have never advocated retaliatory justice against an enemy. I have stated that evil has been done in the name of Allah and that Islamic law includes the stoning of women to death for adultery, which is evil.

I can see this conversation in 1942 from Mirdath, “Even if you think that Hitler’s death camps are evil, you still have to remember to respect him as a person.”

 

[QuietTimes]

OK
So after a long weekend I am back and very surprised to see these thread trail off so much I hadnt had a chance to really read them till now.
And I see that good ol’ amadhassan was up to some pretty tricky moves :whacky:
Well I will restate kind of what I wanted to know, which was as some here have put it that muslim men will have houris and food and plenty of drink. My question was what will muslim women get? Will they become the houris? Is lust the ultimate pleasure that is looked forward to attainig?
And will all this happen in front of God the sex the drinking and eating? Is not being in the presence of God enough?
I am really more curious,now, some have answered but very vaguely.
Belfarfala your post are always very insightful so thank you.
Sorry for all the questions but inquiring minds want to know.

 

[QuietTimes]

Are you not commanded to love your enemy? And are you saying that all Muslims are evil?

Love the sinner not the sin!! I am sure you have heard this over and over but it really is true although we may not agree with Islam and we call it evil, they did not say that because it is a evil religion we should hate muslims. you are using two different ideas here.

 

[hosemonkey]

OK
So after a long weekend I am back and very surprised to see these thread trail off so much I hadnt had a chance to really read them till now.
And I see that good ol’ amadhassan was up to some pretty tricky moves :whacky:
Well I will restate kind of what I wanted to know, which was as some here have put it that muslim men will have houris and food and plenty of drink. My question was what will muslim women get? Will they become the houris? Is lust the ultimate pleasure that is looked forward to attainig?
And will all this happen in front of God the sex the drinking and eating? Is not being in the presence of God enough?
I am really more curious,now, some have answered but very vaguely.
Belfarfala your post are always very insightful so thank you.
Sorry for all the questions but inquiring minds want to know.

I think that the moslems are viewing heaven as some kind of Playboy mansion in the sky, with God as Hugh Hefner overseeing the revels.

 

[BelFarfalla]

They are marching. They are protesting by the thousands in Morocco, Jordan, Iraq, even DC, imams and ordinary Muslims are speaking out – and because they are peaceful, good, calm people, they are not newsworthy.

It would be good to see more of this in the news. Perhaps someone who is familiar with these protests could post some links to them.

Not that long ago, I would have had to fear for my safety in Christian countries for being an apostate. I’m just as bad in your eyes as you claim to be in theirs.

You’re right. The punishment of apostates did happened. It was wrong to punish people for their beliefs. We have to make sure this is never repeated.

An apostate reminding a Christian of the duty to love. Think about it. I’d laugh if it weren’t so heartbreaking.

We are all learning to deal with this… how to continue with ‘love’ while discussing the wonders of executing apotates and adulterers, wife beating, or war to spread the religion is apparently something many have a hard time doing.
Let me give you an example. Years ago I taught at a university. At the end of one semester a student came to my home with a small house plant as a gift. The TV news was showing some blacks in DC demonstrating. Out of the blue this student went on a racist rant. She ended up inviting me to a KKK meeting. Why on earth she thought I’d be interested in that is beyond me. I tied to talk to her about a different way of looking at things she would not yield. I gave her a piece of my mind, handed the plant back to her and told her to get out of my house. I told her that I wanted her to know beyond a doubt that the vast majority found her views repulsive.
I seem to recall Jesus displaying some anger at people who were doing wrong. Where was his love? Sometimes it is love to tell a person, or a group of people, that they are flat wrong and will not be tolerated. I’m not talking about the basic beliefs but only the violent and hateful ones.

Is not being human enough?

Not when they are advocating violence, no. Not when someone justifies the stabbing and killing of someone who ‘insults’ their religion … no. To me this is all far too real since I’ve seen it in action.

I am not defending individual tenets of Islam, and I have gone so far as to say I have serious issues with some. What I am defending is the dignity of a faith that has been unjustly and unnecessarily trampled on.

Who is trampling more on the religion? Those who riot and kill for ‘insults’ or those who are dismayed at the rioting and killing over something as stupid as insults?

I am not. I am, however, slowly gaining the impression that certain Christians love being Right at the expense of being correct, love belittling and demeaning honest searches for the same deity they worship, love using their faith as a club against others. I do not want to think this, but when I see how these people treat other faiths, especially Islam, I find I have little choice.

Claiming a faith actively evil is a more serious thing than claiming it merely fabricated. I do not dispute that there can be hatred and a lack of respect in the other direction, too, and wish it were not so just as much; however, this being a primarily-Catholic board, the problem of some Catholics’ hatred and xenophobia is much more pervasive and visible.

Isn’t there an aspect of evil to a belief system that actually has laws that command the followers to convert, subjugate in humiliation or kill all who believe differently? Now isn’t that a most blatant form of hatred and xenophobia??? And you expect those that are the target to be most civilized in discussing why this is wrong… Only to be told that it is God’s law and they cannot go against it… So we should not feel like they hate us, but only that they are following God’s law. If you can wash that down with love and a smile, more power to you. Just remember that the tenants of Islam give me the choice to live even if under subjugation. You are to be killed outright as you do not believe in God.

 

[Eden]

A Muslim on this site once told me that women also get an orgy in paradise. I doubt this is a true belief, however, since women are considered to be inferior mentally and are worth half a man.

Apparently, if Muslim men pray five times a day, fast, etc., they can attain the highest level of heaven. This includes the virgins and the food and drink but also a market in which men can choose women from a wide selection, like a Middle-Eastern bazaar, and the bonus is that the chosen women will always be “willing” and they are “clean” (never having menstruation or other bodily functions).

 

[QuietTimes]

A Muslim on this site once told me that women also get an orgy in paradise. I doubt this is a true belief, however, since women are considered to be inferior mentally and are worth half a man.

Apparently, if Muslim men pray five times a day, fast, etc., they can attain the highest level of heaven. This includes the virgins and the food and drink but also a market in which men can choose women from a wide selection, like a Middle-Eastern bazaar, and the bonus is that the chosen women will always be “willing” and they are “clean” (never having menstruation or other bodily functions).

I keep reading things like this and find them incredible, is this really what is taught throughout islam or is just some sects?

 

[Eden]

I keep reading things like this and find them incredible, is this really what is taught throughout islam or is just some sects?

You can read about it here:

islamreview.com/articles/islamicheaven.shtml

The author doesn’t mention only certain sects believing this.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I keep reading things like this and find them incredible, is this really what is taught throughout islam or is just some sects?

Most of this is in the Qur’an so it cannot be questioned. It is so for all sects if Islam.

 

[Mirdath]

I also want to say that I generally enjoy your posts and point of view.

Thanks

Re: behavior of members of a religion: well, if the members of a religion are committing evil acts in the practice of following their religion, then that’s when I have a problem with those members.
So - I do have a problem with any religion that stones homosexuals to death. for example. And I also have a problem with any religion that sanctions killing of apostates.

Yes – a problem with the members, and with religious laws becoming civil theocracies. Keep in mind that Islam is not the only religion that calls for the stoning of homosexuals and apostates. They got that from Judaism.

Eden:

I have stated that evil has been done in the name of Allah and that Islamic law includes the stoning of women to death for adultery, which is evil.

This is true. Does it justify the treatment of Muslims with the fear, anger, and derision they have often met with here so far? Do atrocities committed by extremists and the existence of antiquated evils in the Quran (as they are in the Torah/Pentateuch) give others license to treat all of them as subhuman, undeserving of respect? This is the attitude you are, I hope unintentionally, defending.

QuietTimes:

Love the sinner not the sin!! I am sure you have heard this over and over but it really is true although we may not agree with Islam and we call it evil, they did not say that because it is a evil religion we should hate muslims. you are using two different ideas here.

I see both ideas practiced. I can understand calling Islam misguided; from a Catholic perspective, it certainly is – but evil? How can you call a religion that worships your God, even in a misguided fashion, truly evil?

BelFarfalla:

Perhaps someone who is familiar with these protests could post some links to them.

Happy to. Here are six links I found for another thread a while back:
gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/moroccans-protest-islamic-terrorism-in.html instapundit.com/archives/012962.php voanews.com/english/archive/2005-05/2005-05-13-voa38.cfm?CFID=158310396&CFTOKEN=36034116 blackfive.net/main/2005/07/iraqis_march_ag.html jordanembassyus.org/04292004007.htm gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/07/more-good-news-from-denmark.html.

I seem to recall Jesus displaying some anger at people who were doing wrong. Where was his love? Sometimes it is love to tell a person, or a group of people, that they are flat wrong and will not be tolerated. I’m not talking about the basic beliefs but only the violent and hateful ones.

First off, Catholics are not Jesus, but only his followers; and second, while they are directed to admonish the sinner as a spiritual work of mercy, they are commanded to do so with charity. I have noticed a tendency for some people to enjoy the admonishing so much they forget about the charity.

Not when they are advocating violence, no. Not when someone justifies the stabbing and killing of someone who ‘insults’ their religion … no. To me this is all far too real since I’ve seen it in action.

I do not say that evil does not exist, nor that it must be allowed; but only that, after all, you are commanded to love your enemies, to love those who strike you, spit upon you, and persecute you. I know it isn’t easy – but that’s the reason you are told to take up your cross and follow Jesus, not your daisy chain. And being polite over the internet is not a heavy cross, is it?

Isn’t there an aspect of evil to a belief system that actually has laws that command the followers to convert, subjugate in humiliation or kill all who believe differently? Now isn’t that a most blatant form of hatred and xenophobia???

You do realize that everything you just said applies to Judaism back in its conquering days – except conversion wasn’t an option? I have no worries about being slain by rampaging Israelites nowadays, none about being put before the Inquisitional court for my commission of apostasy, and as long as I stay out of Saudi Arabia, none about being put to death for being a queer agnostic. Old laws and divine commands are not the problem; their persistence into civil government is. And that too will pass.

And you expect those that are the target to be most civilized in discussing why this is wrong…

As you point out below that, I’m even more a target for fundamentalist Muslims. If I can discuss it and disagree with it with civility and respect, why do so many Catholics seem incapable or unwilling to do the same?

 

[Eden]

This is true. Does it justify the treatment of Muslims with the fear, anger, and derision they have often met with here so far? Do atrocities committed by extremists and the existence of antiquated evils in the Quran (as they are in the Torah/Pentateuch) give others license to treat all of them as subhuman, undeserving of respect? This is the attitude you are, I hope unintentionally, defending.

Please dispense of the cliche characterizations. First, you called me racist (making assumptions about my own race and despite that fact that I never mentioned anyone’s race) and now you call me fearful, angry and derisive. This seems extremely ironic considering that you are haranguing me for being “judgmental”. It’s rather hypocritical of you, isn’t it?

It worries me when our Western society is producing this kind of fuzzy thinking. According to Mirdath, calling the stoning to death of women accused of adultery evil is objectionable. *Actually *stoning to death women accused of adultery is not.

Further! I don’t know where you are getting your information. Stoning of women accused of adultery is not directed by extremists, nor is it antiquated.

This is today in Pakistan:

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan more than 75% of all women in jail are there under the charges of zina or adultery. And al most all are physically and sexually abused by the police. Most of the women are charged under the hudud ordinances. Hudud are the set of punishments set forth by prophet Muhammad.
**Here are a few examples of hudud sentences. **

Adultery—stoning to death.
Apostasy or leaving islam—death
Theft-cutting off of right hand.
Simple robbery on the highway-loss of hands and feet.
Robbery and murder-death.
Drinking alcohol-eighty lashes with the whip.

 

[Linda_Marie]

As I understand it, Muslim women go to Paradise only if they have obeyed their husbands perfectly according to Islam, never disobeying a lawful command and never vexing him - ever, no matter what the provocation, just so long as he is pleased with her when she dies. Just one unkind word against her husband can send her to Hell. If they attain Paradise, it is the same place that men go, however, they take their place beside the 72 Houris to serve their husbands in the afterlife as they served them on earth. After reading some of the links below, I found that if a woman was not married at the time of her death, Allah may marry her to someone in Paradise and that if a woman had more than one husband on earth, then she gets to choose which husband she will remain with in Paradise. Either way, she is still a servant to her husband for all eternity.

I cannot fathom why any woman would want this, even if you take the sex out of it. I can only surmise that Muslim women accept this because they have been taught their place from birth.

This is anecdotal but I once asked why the women in Saudi Arabia always wear black. I was told, by Muslims, that it was because women have no souls. No soul = No Paradise. This might not be in the Koran, but they must have gotten the idea from somewhere.

Here is an Islamic site that has the official version;
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503549252
There are related links at the bottom.

and
submission.org/women/wives.html