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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
John Paul II is the Pope. The chair of Peter is not vacant.
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GilKobrin
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Tom of Assisi:
Shalom!
Gil
Sir, I beg to differ. The deity worshipped by Muslims is a non-corporeal, omniscient and omnipotent God, who created the universe and transmits knowledge to Man via prophecy. This is the same in every respect to the God of the Jews, as described in the Bible.
Tom of Assisi:
As per the article I referenced in my original post, John Paul II has publically stated that the God of the Muslims is the God of the Jews and Christians. Do you contend this?
Shalom!
Gil
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Some Muslims might think they are worshipping a non-corporal and omnipotent God, but are they? That’s the question. The words and commands (not to mention the history of his revelation) of Allah puts him as something different (and contradictory to) the the God of the Jews and Christians. Just because they give the same name to the god they worship…doesn’t mean he is the same. Look at the circumstances around the life of Mohomed and his god’s revelation to him…it cannot be our God. I know it’s not politically correct or nice, but let’s face reality here.
I do disagree with the Pope’s assessment. He has his reasons why he said them, but every thing he says does not have to be taken as a fact.
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GilKobrin
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
It is quite evident from a careful reading of the Quran that Muhammed had many correct ideas about God; however, that does not mean that God revealed anything to him or commanded him to do anything. Muhammed’s praises of God are correct and true; however, the supposed commands which he was given by Him are false.
It is important to separate the two.
Tom of Assisi:
Shalom!
Gil
Sir, you keep getting back to the same, confused premise - that if Allah is God, then the Quran must be His revelation to Muhammed; however, this just isn’t so.
It is quite evident from a careful reading of the Quran that Muhammed had many correct ideas about God; however, that does not mean that God revealed anything to him or commanded him to do anything. Muhammed’s praises of God are correct and true; however, the supposed commands which he was given by Him are false.
It is important to separate the two.
Tom of Assisi:
Do you believe that, in the interest of pursuing truth, it behooves you to investigate the reasoning behind the Pope’s assessment?
Shalom!
Gil
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StubbleSpark
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
We cannot chose when he is fallible and when he is infallible for the simple sake of convenience. That would be schismatic.
Having said that, we can still fault Muslims for having a man-made faith that teaches them to worship the same God (just like the Protestants). Just because a human borrowed from Jewish thinking in order to discover the truth about God, does not mean that those borrowings are automatically invalid.
The Church agrees with every heresy to some extent.
It is where the heresies DIFFER from orthodoxy that causes the tensions.
Catholicism is probably the only religion that requires ANOTHER faith to be 100% TRUTH (Judaism) because the physics of salvation enacted by Christ are meaningless in any other concept.
In understanding this objective TRUTH, we also have to acknowledge it where ever it may be.
In other words, there is no point in fruitlessly bickering over that which we already AGREE on, is there? Such an approach is unscientific and lacking in faith and understanding.
If you think about it, Islam is a sort of proto-Protestantism meant to counter the effects of Catholicism and Judaism.
Prayers
Beware, my friend. The pope is in fact INFALLIBLE when it comes to matters of FAITH and MORALS and his statement on the Muslims was meant to INSTRUCT us Catholics. We must understand that he meant what he said and that what he says is TRUTH.
We cannot chose when he is fallible and when he is infallible for the simple sake of convenience. That would be schismatic.
Having said that, we can still fault Muslims for having a man-made faith that teaches them to worship the same God (just like the Protestants). Just because a human borrowed from Jewish thinking in order to discover the truth about God, does not mean that those borrowings are automatically invalid.
The Church agrees with every heresy to some extent.
It is where the heresies DIFFER from orthodoxy that causes the tensions.
Catholicism is probably the only religion that requires ANOTHER faith to be 100% TRUTH (Judaism) because the physics of salvation enacted by Christ are meaningless in any other concept.
In understanding this objective TRUTH, we also have to acknowledge it where ever it may be.
In other words, there is no point in fruitlessly bickering over that which we already AGREE on, is there? Such an approach is unscientific and lacking in faith and understanding.
If you think about it, Islam is a sort of proto-Protestantism meant to counter the effects of Catholicism and Judaism.
Prayers
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Thank you for the charity of your responce. I am worn out and depressed by this topic, however…if the Pope says things like this infallibly then I need to reassess why I came back to what I thought was the Truth…
I guess I’m throwing in the towel on this one… anyone who worships ONE god (however they describe that God or choose to worship him) is worshipping our God…Nobody is wrong…everybody is right… Mormons, Muslims…they’re all true…that’s the lesson I’m taking home tonight.
We’ll see where I go from here…
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
how political correctness blurs clear thinking.
yes sir, Allah is God, but the prophet who braught Allah to the Arab world did so with a false revelation based on deceit.
Allah=true God
Mohomed=false prophet:
Koran=true revelation to a false prophet from a true God
your logic, sir, is amazing…but you are correct…I’m the confused one–thanks for that.
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
The Pope and the Catechism merely point out that Muslims worship God the creator, the infinte being. Even the pagan Socrates had some concept of the infinite God, the first cause of everything.
Tom–please don’t let this shake your adherence to the Faith. The fact that Mohammed got some things right about God shouldn’t lead us to the conclusion that he got everything right and/or that the Koran is God’s revelation. Clearly it’s not.Thank you for the charity of your responce. I am worn out and depressed by this topic, however…if the Pope says things like this infallibly then I need to reassess why I came back to what I thought was the Truth…
I guess I’m throwing in the towel on this one… anyone who worships ONE god (however they describe that God or choose to worship him) is worshipping our God…Nobody is wrong…everybody is right… Mormons, Muslims…they’re all true…that’s the lesson I’m taking home tonight.
The Pope and the Catechism merely point out that Muslims worship God the creator, the infinte being. Even the pagan Socrates had some concept of the infinite God, the first cause of everything.
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GilKobrin
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Sir, I can not emphasize this enough - the Quran is not a revelation from God. That is the crucial point that one must understand. The Quran was not received from God, but is rather a man-made philosophical-historical construction.
Shalom!
Gil
(Emphasis added)
Sir, I can not emphasize this enough - the Quran is not a revelation from God. That is the crucial point that one must understand. The Quran was not received from God, but is rather a man-made philosophical-historical construction.
Shalom!
Gil
C
Contarini
Guest
Gil,
Thanks for stopping by! I’ve tried to make this argument before (most recently on another Catholic board) but you do so with much greater tact and courtesy.
Tom,
I think you’re jumping to conclusions. There’s nothing illogical in saying that “Allah” simply means “the one true God,” but that Muslims have mistaken ideas about that God. I don’t understand why you find this so difficult. Why can’t people be wrong about the One True God as about other matters? Why does the conclusion that “Allah” is God lead to the conclusion that Muslims are right about Him? This makes no sense whatever to me.
That “Allah” is God seems clear from the fact that Christian Arabs use the word “Allah” for God, and that in pre-Islamic times they went on pilgrimage to the Ka’abah to worship Allah, clearly evidencing that they recognized him as the One True God. I see a parallel here with St. Paul’s appeal to the Athenian worship of an “unknown God.” That appears to be who “Allah” was. “Allah” was clearly distinguished from the pagan idols worshiped by the Arabs, and was rather like the God believed in by many African tribes–a distant figure who doesn’t intervene directly in the world. In other words, people all over the world have a natural knowledge of one true God, but they don’t know much about Him and they don’t know how to worship Him truly. God revealed this to the Hebrews, and ultimately in Jesus Christ. Islam is a confused appropriation of this true revelation by someone whose knowledge of the truth was very faulty. We would probably differ in our estimate of Muhammad (i.e., while I think he had serious faults, I think he was sincere and that he truly brought pagans to worship the One God, which in itself was a good thing), but that’s not really the point.
For the claims I’ve made about Allah, see Marshall Hodgson, The Venture of Islam, vol. 1:155-56.
Finally, while I disagree with you and agree with the Pope, I can’t see that the Pope’s statements on the subject have dogmatic force. Lumen Gentium is a different matter, as is the Catechism.
IN Christ,
Edwin
Thanks for stopping by! I’ve tried to make this argument before (most recently on another Catholic board) but you do so with much greater tact and courtesy.
Tom,
I think you’re jumping to conclusions. There’s nothing illogical in saying that “Allah” simply means “the one true God,” but that Muslims have mistaken ideas about that God. I don’t understand why you find this so difficult. Why can’t people be wrong about the One True God as about other matters? Why does the conclusion that “Allah” is God lead to the conclusion that Muslims are right about Him? This makes no sense whatever to me.
That “Allah” is God seems clear from the fact that Christian Arabs use the word “Allah” for God, and that in pre-Islamic times they went on pilgrimage to the Ka’abah to worship Allah, clearly evidencing that they recognized him as the One True God. I see a parallel here with St. Paul’s appeal to the Athenian worship of an “unknown God.” That appears to be who “Allah” was. “Allah” was clearly distinguished from the pagan idols worshiped by the Arabs, and was rather like the God believed in by many African tribes–a distant figure who doesn’t intervene directly in the world. In other words, people all over the world have a natural knowledge of one true God, but they don’t know much about Him and they don’t know how to worship Him truly. God revealed this to the Hebrews, and ultimately in Jesus Christ. Islam is a confused appropriation of this true revelation by someone whose knowledge of the truth was very faulty. We would probably differ in our estimate of Muhammad (i.e., while I think he had serious faults, I think he was sincere and that he truly brought pagans to worship the One God, which in itself was a good thing), but that’s not really the point.
For the claims I’ve made about Allah, see Marshall Hodgson, The Venture of Islam, vol. 1:155-56.
Finally, while I disagree with you and agree with the Pope, I can’t see that the Pope’s statements on the subject have dogmatic force. Lumen Gentium is a different matter, as is the Catechism.
IN Christ,
Edwin
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Exporter
Guest
The original poster, GilK had a link - I read that. It was written by a well-known Liberal priest. I chose to read a more unbiased report.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html
What I was looking for was ,“WHO IS ALLAH?” If Allah is the one true God, then He would be the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob!
But there is reference to any of the Old Testament Prophets.
I do find in several places that Allah has his origins in the “Moon God” of the more ancient Arabs. Have you seen the Moon and the Star on Mosques and on Official Documents od Islam. There is no way one can separate Islam fron the Moon and Star. I am speaking here of Islam as it was several hundred years ago. The modern Muslim would not want to say his God is Allah who descended from the ancient Arabic moon god.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html
What I was looking for was ,“WHO IS ALLAH?” If Allah is the one true God, then He would be the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob!
But there is reference to any of the Old Testament Prophets.
I do find in several places that Allah has his origins in the “Moon God” of the more ancient Arabs. Have you seen the Moon and the Star on Mosques and on Official Documents od Islam. There is no way one can separate Islam fron the Moon and Star. I am speaking here of Islam as it was several hundred years ago. The modern Muslim would not want to say his God is Allah who descended from the ancient Arabic moon god.
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
I believe the Koran does reference Abraham. However, it doesn’t reference Isaac or Jacob since the Koran replaces Isaac with Ishmael in the story of Abraham’s almost sacrifice of his son. Many people believe that just as the Jews descended from Isaac, the Arabs descended from Ishmael. And we’re touching on one of the main purposes of the Koran: to deny that the Jews are God’s chosen people–indeed to rewrite much of the ancient history of the Middle East.
Catholic symbolism sometimes includes images of the sun, yet we don’t worship the sun. Much of the symbolism in images of the Blessed Mother include the moon and the stars. The moon and stars imagery in and of itself doesn’t indicate that the Muslims worship a false deity. In fact the whole story of the ancient Jews is their movement from the worship of pagan gods such as Baal to the worship of the one true God. If Muslims believe that God is eternal, unchanging and the creator of all things, then I don’t see how you could deny that they’re worshipping God, even if they do have a false understanding of His nature.
I truly believe the Islam is a great heresy, maybe inspired by Satan, maybe simply man-made. And yet I have no intellectual problem with acknowledging that Muslims worship God. I guess I don’t see why this is so hard to understand.
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
GilKobrin said:
Sir, I will try to explain it again, sir. We live in a world of reality, sir. A world, sir, where certain objective facts occur.
Christianity, sir, is based on the resurection of Christ. No resurection: no Christianity (as St. Paul aknowledged).
Islam is based, sir, on the revelation of Gabriel to Mohomed. No revelation: no Islam.
The revelation recorded by Mohomed (much like the one Smith had) contradicts the Christian message. Therefore, sir, they cannot both be true. Unless we assuming, sir, that anyone who worships one god is automatically worshipping the God. No matter, sir, of the specifics of their beliefs or actions!
Sir, I know you are looking for commanalities between religions, and you yourself, sir, are not a Christian or a Muslim. But, sir, try, sir to understand that for most people religions are not academic excursions into aesthetic mysticism or mythologies: for most people religions are concerened with and derived from factual occurances that actually happened in objective reality.
Sir, I can invent my own god, or an “angel of light” can explain a new previously unknown understanding of God to me. I may call this new god “God”–but that does make him so, sir, does it? It does not mean that we can all sit around a campfire, sir, and make out while singing Kum-By-Ya. I’m not sure what part of this, sir, you are not understanding. Perhaps, sir, in your rush to be sensitive, find commonalities and good feelings, and be politically correct you have failed to understand the facts of the matter: Christ is the final revelation and covenent from God. There cannot be a later contradictory one…regardless of superficial similarities, sir.
Remember, sir, facts–not feelings. Christianity is based on facts and not on subjective feelings or approximations.
Thank you, sir, for your time, sir.
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Thank you for your kind words: don’t worry. I’ll keep the Faith. :tiphat:
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
So if a person were to invent and worship a god, and they say that he created the universe and is unchanging…they would automatically be worshipping The God? Even if **they attribute a false nature and history to that “God”! **
OK. God came to me last night (he said he was the eternal creator of all–so I know He’s the real God)…and he says that from now on I can best worship Him by burning trees and small animals to him in the forest once a month. I must also abstain from eating all vegtables (or even watching Veggie Tales on tv). He further explained that abortion was good and the ideal family type was polygamy. He then instructed me that if I could convert 1,000 people to this new understanding, then in the after-life I will be surrounded by such sexual pleasures as no poet or pornographer has ever imagined.
So I guess when I worship Him…I am worshipping God. I think of him as eternal and unchanging after all. So He’s God. Any surface differences between my God (He told me to call Him, Gortok) and Christ don’t really matter after all, right?
:whacky:
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Tom of Assisi:
Of course personal revelation is fallible (i.e. Protestantism). I’m just following the CCC when I say if someone is praying to his eternal, unchanging creator, the God of Abraham, he is worshipping the true God, no matter what the skewed understanding of the behavior God expects of us. Do you think that Protestants are worshipping the true God? What about Jews?
First of all, a person doesn’t invent the eternal, unchanging God the Creator, he discovers Him. The concept of God is written on the human heart. But, you are right, our fallen nature causes us to skew and misinterpret the nature of God. Thank Him we have the Church to infallibly show us the truth.
Tom of Assisi:
I just checked the Catechism and it does make the distinction that all those who worship the God of Abraham are worshipping the true God.
Of course personal revelation is fallible (i.e. Protestantism). I’m just following the CCC when I say if someone is praying to his eternal, unchanging creator, the God of Abraham, he is worshipping the true God, no matter what the skewed understanding of the behavior God expects of us. Do you think that Protestants are worshipping the true God? What about Jews?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
For JHWH to mention those three OT patriarchs to Moses, made sense, because Moses and they shared a common experience of the same God in the same culture and environment. For Mohammed to have heard such an identification, would have made no sense, because he lived in a somewhat different culture, 2000 years later. God speaks to us in terms that mean something to us - not in terms that have no relation to us.
And besides, Gabriel is more like the “angel of the Lord”; he is not God (!), but a messenger from God, and only that; even though a superhuman one. ##It’s strange to see Fr. Harrison - of all people - described as “a…Liberal priest”; the Roman Theological Forum (the periodical of which, has him for its Associate Editor) would probably strike most people as pretty “conservative”: IOW, not quite “traditionalist” in the way that the FSSP might be so described, but tending in that general direction.
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
Additionally, I find it curious that Exporter called his source unbiased. Here is the bibliographic information at the end of the linked article:
Unless he perhaps meant not biased towards Christianity? This is a Wahhabi insitution–the most virulent of Islamic sects. I read the linked article and there’s no contradiction between their explanation of “Allah” and Fr. Harrison’s article.
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Gortok is just as “true” as your christian god, if not much more so. And for good form, I’ll keep Jesus on as a type of handy-man/prophet…of course in my new The Gospel according to Gortok which I was commanded to write, I will explain how Jesus is not one of the four corners of the True Square God. Gortok likes his social teachings, so I am permitted to mention this mere mortal man in my new Holy Book. Of course, I know that Jesus was really a prophet who fortold the coming of the Gortok. But, you bigoted and unsophisticated Catholics, please remember, WE ARE WORSHIPPING THE SAME GOD, I expect you to remember that. How are they the same you ask? Because I think Gortok is eternal and He created the universe…therefore I am worshipping the same God you are.
It’s all so logical…why didn’t I see it before
I have just received a further revelation from Gortok…wow God is beautiful…He explained to me that He is actually a quatrine God…a Holy Square, if you will…not a mere trinity as previously thought. I hope you all understand that because I know Gortok created the universe and is eternal, that we are actually worshipping the same God…although you mistakenly take God to be a trinity, while I know He is really a Square. A Square who demands to be worshipping by the burning of trees and small forest animals…and also considers abortion a Holy Sacrement…also I have been told that the after-life, which Gortok will provide for me is basically a whore-house***…but we are worshipping the same God ***
Gortok is just as “true” as your christian god, if not much more so. And for good form, I’ll keep Jesus on as a type of handy-man/prophet…of course in my new The Gospel according to Gortok which I was commanded to write, I will explain how Jesus is not one of the four corners of the True Square God. Gortok likes his social teachings, so I am permitted to mention this mere mortal man in my new Holy Book. Of course, I know that Jesus was really a prophet who fortold the coming of the Gortok. But, you bigoted and unsophisticated Catholics, please remember, WE ARE WORSHIPPING THE SAME GOD, I expect you to remember that. How are they the same you ask? Because I think Gortok is eternal and He created the universe…therefore I am worshipping the same God you are.
It’s all so logical…why didn’t I see it before
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Please do not discriminate because I have the true understanding of God as opposed to your false one…please help me out…uh I mean, help Gortok out…let’s be diverse…come on give…I have some student loans to pay off here…ooooppps…I mean I’ve got a Church to build here.
Send me a private message and I’ll give you my…I mean Gortok’s Swiss Bank account number so you can donate the funds.
Think of it as fostering understanding between different denomenations…different denomenations OF THE SAME GOD
THANKS, IN ADVANCE, FOR YOUR GIVING
Uhhhhh…hey guys, listen. Gortok (the God we all worship) has instructed me to get $50…no make that $100 from each of you…to, uh, help me to build His True Holy Church. His first one!!!
Please do not discriminate because I have the true understanding of God as opposed to your false one…please help me out…uh I mean, help Gortok out…let’s be diverse…come on give…I have some student loans to pay off here…ooooppps…I mean I’ve got a Church to build here.
Send me a private message and I’ll give you my…I mean Gortok’s Swiss Bank account number so you can donate the funds.
Think of it as fostering understanding between different denomenations…different denomenations OF THE SAME GOD
THANKS, IN ADVANCE, FOR YOUR GIVING
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