Islam and Original Sin

[De_Maria]

Hi

Question :And you believe him?

Answer:Yes , I believe him.

Question :so Mirza is the promised Messiah.

Answer: Yes, he is the PromisedMessiah or in him the Second Coming of Jesus has taken place, metaphorically not literally.

Thanks

What sect of Islam do you belong to?

 

[De_Maria]

The first Question from Sirajuddin , a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908

It may be clarified that the questioner want to know that as per the concepts of the Christians that Jesus Christ came into this world that he may show love to the sinners by taking the curse of their sins on his own head and for that very purpose he is killed for their those sins. Is there any example for his cursed sacrifice for the sinners to save them? Does Quran offer such a sacrifice or not? If Quran does not offer it then does Quran offer a better means for the redemption of the humans from sin?

We want to inform Mr. Sirajuddin that Quran does not offer any such sacrifice. Quran does not think it justifiable at all that the curse of one’s sin should be put on someone else, not to speak of the collection of millions people’s sin on a single individual for nothing. Quran says it very categorically “wa la tazeru wazeratun wezra aukhraa” Sura Bani Israel, 17:16; meaning none would bear the burden of someone else. But before I proceed further I want to elucidate Quranic guidance, I think it appropriate that I may show the mistake of this principle of the Christians so that a person who wants to make a comparison of teachings of Quran and NTBible he could do it with ease.

Lit it be known that the Christians principle that God loved humankind so for their emancipation he thus arranged that the burden of sins of the disobedient, infidels and wrongdoer ones He put on his loving son Jesus. To free humankind from sins He made Jesus a cursed one and Jesus was hanged on the cursed tree. This principle is a bad one, rather shameful from all aspects. If we weigh it on the scale of justice it would prove to be a sheer cruelty; would it make any sense to punish “y” for the crime committed by “x”? Human conscience does not approve it altogether that the actual culprit should be released and his punishment should be borne by someone else who has done no sin at all.
Unquote
Thanks

The response would continue

That is an excellent description of the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Let me give you an example. If your child Paarsurrey, had committed a fault and because of that fault, he was condemned to suffering and ultimate death, would you love your son enough to take his place and suffer in his place to save his life?

Apparently, the Quran would forbid this, since no one is to suffer or sacrifice themselves for the another person’s sins, or to put it in Christian speak, for the love of another.

On the other hand, God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. (John 3:16)

And that is the difference. God is our Dearly Beloved Father and He does not wish that any of us should perish. So He sent His only Son to give us an example of self sacrifice and love that we might be saved.

Thank you for providing an excellent point of comparison. What is the second question?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Greg27]

In my understanding Islam also talks about the fall of Adam, but Adam repented and was forgiven by God. Therefore there is no concept of inherited guilt because of the primal fall of Adam, as we see expounded in the letters of St Paul, and later in more rigorous form by St Augustine and St Anselm. In Islamic theology, there is still the possibility of sin, guilt for existing sins which will send you to hell if you don’t repent (which aren’t too different from those in the other monotheistic religions) but there is no equivalent to my knowledge of the notion of each descendant of Adam lacking sanctifying grace which needs to be restored through baptism and the other sacraments used in the Christian church in Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

What sect of Islam do you belong to?

Hi

It is mentioned in my signature. I am an Ahmadi a peaceful faith in Islam

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Let me give you an example. If your child Paarsurrey, had committed a fault and because of that fault, he was condemned to suffering and ultimate death, would you love your son enough to take his place and suffer in his place to save his life?
Apparently, the Quran would forbid this, since no one is to suffer or sacrifice themselves for the another person’s sins

Hi

Frankly speaking, it is only a misconception in the NTBible. Even OTBible won’t accept that notion.

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Frankly speaking, it is only a misconception in the NTBible. Even OTBible won’t accept that notion.

Thanks

This is what God the Father says in the OT:

Isaiah 49:15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

And this:

Deuteronomy 23:5
Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Kings 10:9
Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.

Ezekiel 16:8
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

The entire Old Testament is a treatise of God’s unrequited love for His People. God loved us, but we did not love Him in return.

I’m afraid you don’t understand the OT at all.

sincerely,

De Maria

 

[KimL]

Some Christians, perhaps maybe even a majority of Christians believe this. I don’t.

I dont.

 

[Khalfan]

No.

Catholic teaching says that God created Adam and Eve with every advantage and placed them in a setting where it would be very simple for them to continue living without sin. But God did not then, nor does He now, coerce anyone’s faith. He created them with free will.

Although God created Adam and Eve perfect. Even perfect men are not God’s. Perfect men still have limited intellect and knowledge. They still have to weigh their options. Adam and Eve made a choice. They had the freedom to choose, believe in Him or in Satan’s lies. They accepted Satan’s lies. In so doing they separated themselves from God’s grace.

In comparison, Quranic lore tries to imitate the story of Adam and Eve, but in denying the truth of Original Sin, it is clear that Mohammed did not understand the value of the teaching.

First you said NO. Then you went on explaining the same thing that I already said, that the potential to sin, existed in them as a part of thier free will. Wher they got that potential to sin? It is the same potential we all have in us, as part of our free will. Inheritence of sin is just imaginery, like we say, ‘BORN TO WIN’ or BORN TO FIGHT’. In reality, there is no one born to win or born to fight.

Where does it say that in the Quran?

It would seem, from the interpretation of this Islamic website,

http://bama.ua.edu/~msa/adam.html

that Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden in punishment for their transgression. The Quranic text also
seems clear. So, if the Quran states otherwise in another section, then this would seem to be another contradiction.

You missed to read the below, in the same site, under the same topic.

'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out .’ "
(Quran 7:24-25).

Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.

Like I said earlier, mankind was supposed to live on earth, not in the garden.

“And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers; and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two; He draweth the night as a veil over the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider.” (13:3)

“What is the matter with you that you hope not for greatness and wisdom from Allah? And He has created you in different forms and different conditions. See you not how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony, and has placed the moon, therein a light and made the sun a lamp? And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth as a good growth. Then will He cause you to return, thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth”. (71:14-19)

The whole Quran supports the same, that mankind was made to live on earth, not in the garden. If it seems contradiction to you, I can’t help rather than asking, read it again with the context.

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

That is your misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. Jesus did not die so that we would be put back in the garden without effort. Jesus died to give us an example of sacrifice that we might follow in His footsteps:

1 Peter 2
21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

That is why He said:

Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

and St. Paul understood the teaching well:

Romans 8
17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Therefore, it is after we die that we inherit the glory of paradise, if we persever til the end, not before:

Matthew 10
22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

cont’d

Isn’t it clear that we all have to take care of our deeds?

"That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense [fair] " (Quran 53:38-41)

Islam teaches the same.

 

[Booklover]

First you said NO. Then you went on explaining the same thing that I already said, that the potential to sin, existed in them as a part of thier free will. Wher they got that potential to sin? It is the same potential we all have in us, as part of our free will. Inheritence of sin is just imaginery, like we say, ‘BORN TO WIN’ or BORN TO FIGHT’. In reality, there is no one born to win or born to fight.

You missed to read the below, in the same site, under the same topic.

‘Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out *.’ " *
(Quran 7:24-25).

Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.

Like I said earlier, mankind was supposed to live on earth, not in the garden.

“And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers; and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two; He draweth the night as a veil over the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider.” (13:3)

“What is the matter with you that you hope not for greatness and wisdom from Allah? And He has created you in different forms and different conditions. See you not how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony, and has placed the moon, therein a light and made the sun a lamp? And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth as a good growth. Then will He cause you to return, thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth”. (71:14-19)

The whole Quran supports the same, that mankind was made to live on earth, not in the garden. If it seems contradiction to you, I can’t help rather than asking, read it again with the context.

Cont…

Before they sinned, they were so innocent that they didn’t even realize that they were naked! Do you understand that??? It was only when they sinned that their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness and went to cover themselves up! Tell us of any human being who can see another naked human being and not know it?? After they sinned, their innocence was shattered forever. Do you understand now?

Vickie

 

[dolphinlove]

Before they sinned, they were so innocent that they didn’t even realize that they were naked! Do you understand that??? It was only when they sinned that their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness and went to cover themselves up! Tell us of any human being who can see another naked human being and not know it?? After they sinned, their innocence was shattered forever. Do you understand now?

Vickie

Sometimes it takes just a small tap to get a person to understand.
Sometimes you have to throw a pebble at their head to understand.
Sometimes you have to throw a brick at them to actually get the point

 

[De_Maria]

First you said NO. Then you went on explaining the same thing that I already said, that the potential to sin, existed in them as a part of thier free will.

That is partially true. The difference between your explanation and mine is that the Catholic Church teaches that God made man out of love for the purpose of loving and adoring God in return. God did not make man “to sin”.

If you remember, I said that God made man with free will because God does not now and never has coerced our love or our faith.

So, I did not say the same thing you said.

Wher they got that potential to sin? It is the same potential we all have in us, as part of our free will. Inheritence of sin is just imaginery,

Although I have already posted the Catholic Church’s definition of Original Sin. You continue to misrepresent the Catholic Teaching. Are you doing this intentionally?

I’ll repeat, the Catholic Church does not teach that one inherits sin. We inherit the fallen nature which resulted in Adam and Eve after they sinned.

like we say, ‘BORN TO WIN’ or BORN TO FIGHT’. In reality, there is no one born to win or born to fight.

This is a straw man. Since the Church does not teach this and it is simply your misrepresentation of what the Church teaches.

The Church however, does teach that God made us to serve, love and adore God. This is a clear difference between what you admitted that Allah made man to sin.

You missed to read the below, in the same site, under the same topic.

'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out .’ "
(Quran 7:24-25).

Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.

I have to ask you, are you trying to deceive? Did you not read right above those verses you hightlight?

Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree. Satan deceitfully tricked them into disobeying their Lord and as a result:"(God) said:
'Get down (from the Garden), one of you an enemy to the other . On earth will be a dwelling-place for you and an enjoyment – for a short time’. He (God) said:
'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out .’ "
(Quran 7:24-25).
Adam and Eve were ordered to leave the Garden which they where in and descend to earth where they and their children will live and die, and where Satan will also be.

Like I said earlier, mankind was supposed to live on earth, not in the garden.

It is obvious, from a clear reading of the Quranic text, that Allah made Adam and Eve to live in the Garden but ordered them to live on earth in punishment for their sin. It is also clear that is the way that Islamic website understands the Quranic teaching. See the line in bold which you conveniently left out.

“And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers; and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two; He draweth the night as a veil over the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider.” (13:3)

“What is the matter with you that you hope not for greatness and wisdom from Allah? And He has created you in different forms and different conditions. See you not how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony, and has placed the moon, therein a light and made the sun a lamp? And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth as a good growth. Then will He cause you to return, thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth”. (71:14-19)

The whole Quran supports the same, that mankind was made to live on earth, not in the garden. If it seems contradiction to you, I can’t help rather than asking, read it again with the context.

I have read the Quranic account of Adam and Eve in context. I have provided the evidence that an Islamic website understand it the same as I do. I have also proven that the only way you can twist that to your own meaning is by leaving out key texts. The last verses which you posted have nothing to do with the question of Original Sin nor the whether God intended Adam and Eve to live on earth or in Paradise. They simply explain that which the Bible stated centuries before. God’s power of creation is wonderful indeed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Booklover]

Sometimes it takes just a small tap to get a person to understand.
Sometimes you have to throw a pebble at their head to understand.
Sometimes you have to throw a brick at them to actually get the point

Great, Dolph!!

Vickie

 

[De_Maria]

Cont…

Isn’t it clear that we all have to take care of our deeds?

Yes.

"That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense [fair] " (Quran 53:38-41)

This is not the same thing as taking care of our own deeds. The Catholic Church teaches that we must do our best to avoid sin and do good. But the Church also teaches that we must imitate Jesus Christ and just as He suffered and sacrificed to save us we can suffer and sacrifice to save others. It is the called the doctrine of intercession.

The principle is based on the idea that we are members of God’s family. Just as human families help each other out of trouble, we are expected to help our human family out of trouble:

Proverbs 10
12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: and charity covereth all sins.

1 Peter 4

8 But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

James 5
20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Islam teaches the same.

Not quite. The divergence is in the idea that one is alone before Allah. Allah permits no intercessors. Whereas God has always permitted and advised in fact required us to pray and sacrifice for each other.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

1 Timothy 2
15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

If you understood the connection between sacrifice and suffering which Jesus showed us, you will understand why the suffering of childbearing and the sacrifice of motherhood is so important for a woman’s salvation.

Have you forgot the condition, “…if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety”?

No one is saved till we fufill the will of God and our deeds cannot be judged unless we die.

That is not what a plain reading of the above text says. Nor is it what that particular Islamic Website teaches. Why should I believe you instead of them.

Isa 7:20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the River —the king of Assyria—to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to take off your beards also.

What do you understand in a plain reading from the above verse?

Some verses need to be explained.

This does not explain the persistence of sin in human life.

I said, sin is potential in us, becomes reality as result of our free will as Adam and Eve (pbut) did.

According to the Bible they were given an instruction which they did not obey. Disobedience of God’s commands is a sin in the Bible. Is it a sin in the Quran?

I said, it is and the sin was forgiven.

Yes, Adam and Eve were forgiven. After Cain killed Abel, Adam and Eve conceived Seth. Adam’s line through Seth were called the Sons of God:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness, and called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam, after he begot Seth, were eight hundred years: and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

Sincerely,

De Maria

If the sin was forgiven according to Bible, Adam and Eve (pbut) were supposed to be in the state as they were before eating the fruit. right? But they weren’t according to your teachings. They seperate from God and Jesus (pbuh) had to die on the cross to bring them back. So they weren’t forgiven.

 

[Booklover]

Have you forgot the condition, “…if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety”?

No one is saved till we fufill the will of God and our deeds cannot be judged unless we die.

Isa 7:20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the River —the king of Assyria—to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to take off your beards also.

What do you understand in a plain reading from the above verse?

Some verses need to be explained.

I said, sin is potential in us, becomes reality as result of our free will as Adam and Eve (pbut) did.

I said, it is and the sin was forgiven.

If the sin was forgiven according to Bible, Adam and Eve (pbut) were supposed to be in the state as they were before eating the fruit. right? But they weren’t according to your teachings. They seperate from God and Jesus (pbuh) had to die on the cross to bring them back. So they weren’t forgiven.

Wrong! Once their innocence was shattered, they could never be pristine pure as before! You just don’t get it, do you??

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

Sin is an action against God’s will. In Adam and Eve’s case it is direct disobedience to God’s command.

The first sin was committed by Satan.

Sin itself is not inherited. A fallen human nature prone to sin is inherited.

Adam did not inherit sin. He introduced sin to human nature when he set his free will against God’s loving will,.

My dear, where he got the ability to introduce sin? From God. The ability to sin/ the potential to sin was in him and is in all of us. If he was pure in birth, then sinned, we too are pure in birth and then become sinner if we do.

No God does not sin. Therefore Adam could not inherit sin from God. God is love. God created man to love and to be loved in return. God did not need to create man. But He created man for man’s own good. It is better to be than not to be. It is better to have the potential to love God, then never to have the opportunity to do so.

Adam and Eve didn’t INHERIT the sin from God, but they got the nature from God as part of free will.

Which brings up another point. Islam also does not explain why God created man. A reaonable God acts reasonably. God is love and therefore created man for a reason. To love and be loved by him.

Indeed it is so. What is the meaning he gave us the free will, if he just wanted all to love him? God never wanted or expected all to love him, but few of us to love him out of our free will. The others are called as sinners. They do it out of their free will. That too is not a new thing to God. He created us. He knows our capacity and weakness more than us. So he gave us guidence. He offered us his forgiveness and kept the condition, ‘if we repent’. Repenting is the only condition to get forgiven, not sacrifice. Read Ezekiel 18:20-21 with context.

In Allah’s case, I have never heard that Allah had a reason to create man. In other words, Allah created man for no reason. Therefore, Allah acted unreasonably in creating man. Or any creature for that matter.

Anyway it is not as the same concept of Christianity, God created heaven and earth first, then man. After the world perish, our Judgement and the kingdom of heaven forever, where ther is no human life and sinners, problems and prayers. God have nothing to do and will be on holiday forever.

According to Quran, earth and human creation just one of his many activities. There might have been creations before us and ther will be creations after us according to the nature of God (God knows best).

This disagrees with Catholic teaching. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. (1 Tim 2:4).

He could make us to be so, but he didn’t.

According to the Bible only.

surah 35 8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan’s dupe) ? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

surah 42 44he whom allah leads astray has none to protect him thereafter. you will see the harmdoers when they see the punishment saying: ‘is there a way back?’

And what does it have to do with what I said, None of our deeds can negate God or his holyness?

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

No they don’t. You don’t know scripture very well.

Scripture teaches for each other. When God brought the Jews from Egypt, His /will was that the Jews be a nation of priests:

Exodus 19
6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.
:
but when they worshipped the golden calf, the levites proved themselves zealous for God:

Exodus 32
26 Then standing in the gate of the camp, he said: If any man be on the Lord’s side let him join with me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him:

Therefore God appointed them His Priests to intercede for Israel…

Leviticus 5
10 And the other he shall burn for a holocaust, as is wont to be done: and the priest shall pray for him, and for his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

There are many other examples, but I only need to show one.

But almost all of Jesus miracles were examples of the power of intercession:

Matthew 8
5 And when he had entered into Capharnaum, there came to him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grieviously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him.

cont’d

I don’t understand what this have to do with the question, since you already agreed our deeds are counted.

 

[Verisimilitude]

He could make us to be so, but he didn’t.

This is the most unfortunate Islamic position. God made us all equal. There is no difference between a Catholic or Moslem, black or white, Eskimo or African. Each human being is endowed with the same ability to do good as well as evil.

Yes, God could make us robots to do as he programs us and be in perfect harmony with His Will rather than give us Free Will. Islam declares allah is whimsical in who he helps and who he leads astray. What a sad and dark false-faith is Islam.

 

[ozm8]

God?
christ? and man?
To have such a relationship with God?
man and god?