Islam and porc

[Valke2]

Because it doesnt refer at all to the Torah. The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible. The only reference to it is the 10 commandments. It says nothing about genesis, the exodus, Moses, or any other jewish law and tradition. It only references the commandments.

Only if you ignore the express language in the beginning of Chapter 5 of Matthew, and what such language would mean to a 1st century Jew.

 

[Valke2]

Valke, to Jesus, the Law is summarized by this : Love God, love others. Anything you do that hurts others, in the name of the Law, renders the Law null. So if, by observing the sabbath, you reject to help someone in need, you are not observing the Law but making it a burden on humanity. The Law was made for man, not man for the Law. Of course Jesus did not say the law is not valid, He said we render it invalid by our misunderstanding and following letters instead of the Spirit of the Law.

Everything in this post I’d agree with as a Jew. All that is an example of what I posted earlier. A Sage is responsible for teaching the Torah, and adding his view as to how we are to live today in a way that embraces Torah. I believe what Jesus says in the opening of Matthew Chap. 5 was in keeping with how Torah was traditionally taught. By way of example:

Rabban Yohannan ben Zakkai received the Torah from Hillel and Shammai. He would say: "If you have learned much Torah, do not put yourself up on that account, for it was for that purpose that you were created.

He had 5 disciples… He said to them “Go and see what is the straight path to which someone should stick.”
Rabbi Eliezer says, “Good will.”
Rabbi Joshua says “A good friend.”
Rabbi Yose says “A good neighbor”
Rabbi Simeon says “Foresight.”
Rabbi Eleazar says “A generous spirit.”

Zakkai said to them “I prefer the opinion of R. Eleazar, because in what he says is included in everything you say.” …

As with Jesus in Matthew 5, the rabbi is expanding on how we are to live within the commandments of Torah. He is giving his own torah (instruction) in how to live in accordance with God’s Torah/Mosaic Law.

 

[Abraxsis]

I just re-read Matthew Chapter 5. Again no it says nothing like that at all Valke…

The Sermon on the Mount.

When he saw the crowds, he went up to the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him. He began to teach them saying:

The Beattitudes

“Blessed are the poor in spirit.
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the land.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst
for righteousness,
for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart,
For they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.”

Matthew (5:1-9)

Nowhere does it reference the Torah at all.
In fact the start of this Chapter doesnt even talk about the commandments. I dont know how you are getting this idea its about the Torah.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Since Christians say that Jesus (pbuh) himself was the fulfillment of the law, this question still remains unanswered:

Why did he religiously abstain from consuming the flesh of swine all of his life?

BTW, the Qur’an does offer an escape clause (sort of?) to Christians who are trying to come up with a viable answer to the question of why Jesus changed some Jewish laws.

These are the words of Jesus (pbuh) when he spoke to the children of Israel as recorded in the Qur’an:

003.050
"’(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.’"

There is a slight catch here however because once you accept that these are indeed the words of Jesus, then you also need to accept that this next verse of the Qur’an as also being his words to the children of Israel:

003.051
"‘It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.’" /QUOTE Jesus first observed the law in it’s fullest to please His Father. He came however , to fulfill the Covenant by showing Himself as a reflection of the Father’s Love for His poeple. Excuse me if I fail to accept a quote from the Qur"an written 600 years after Our Lord and Savior ascended into Heaven./

 

[Valke2]

I just re-read Matthew Chapter 5. Again no it says nothing like that at all Valke…

The Sermon on the Mount.

When he saw the crowds, he went up to the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him. He began to teach them saying:

The Beattitudes

“Blessed are the poor in spirit.
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the land.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst
for righteousness,
for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart,
For they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.”

Matthew (5:1-9)

Nowhere does it reference the Torah at all.
In fact the start of this Chapter doesnt even talk about the commandments. I dont know how you are getting this idea its about the Torah.

Matthe 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.”
This is an express reference to the Torah. I misspoke when I said it was at the start of the Chapter.

 

[inJESUS]

Matthe 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.”
This is an express reference to the Torah. I misspoke when I said it was at the start of the Chapter.

Jesus said i came to fulfill.In other words, He is saying : am not telling you the Law is not valid, am telling you i will fulfill it, and a New covenant is starting. We follow the Law in light of this New Covenant, where Jews and Gentiles are both saved by God, not because of food diet or circumcision or any of these rituals, but because of God’s love.
Under this New Covenant, the diery law , for example, is no longer held because Jesus declared all food clean.This does not mean we cannot hold to the previous dietary law (even though we are not Jews). This means we believe in Jesus’ salvation, not food’s salvation because what condemns us is our words, not our food that we eliminate in the toilet…But does it mean Jesus had to break the Law in order to teach us? no, He fulfilled it in righteousness, as a Jew, but this does not mean that He did not declare all food clean under the Messianic Covenant.

 

[Valke2]

Jesus said i came to fulfill.In other words, He is saying : am not telling you the Law is not valid, am telling you i will fulfill it, and a New covenant is starting. We follow the Law in light of this New Covenant, where Jews and Gentiles are both saved by God, not because of food diet or circumcision or any of these rituals, but because of God’s love.
Under this New Covenant, the diery law , for example, is no longer held because Jesus declared all food clean.This does not mean we cannot hold to the previous dietary law (even though we are not Jews). This means we believe in Jesus’ salvation, not food’s salvation because what condemns us is our words, not our food that we eliminate in the toilet…But does it mean Jesus had to break the Law in order to teach us? no, He fulfilled it in righteousness, as a Jew, but this does not mean that He did not declare all food clean under the Messianic Covenant.

Food/diet was never an issue of salvation, either before or after Jesus. Ritual never equals salvation in Judaism. It is rather an issue of sanctication. We focus on sanctifying the eternal Israel and the Torah expressly tells us how to do this. Most of the dietary laws were directed at the priests because the issues of purity clean/unclean have nothing to do with morals or ethics in the Torah. THey have to do with whether one can to in the Temple. When Jesus is speaking of unclean or impure he is using it as a metaphor for evil. But that metaphor makes no sense from a Jewish perspective because it uses a definition of unclean that is not found in the Torah.

 

[JFonseka]

Saying Islam is the original religion is living in denial.

 

[dolphinlove]

Saying Islam is the original religion is living in denial.

According to Muslims, Abraham, Moses and basically all the prophets are muslims. I dont know how the can justify this since Islam only began 620AD.

 

[Abraxsis]

According to Muslims, Abraham, Moses and basically all the prophets are muslims. I dont know how the can justify this since Islam only began 620AD.

I believe what Muslims mean by that comment is that all those prophets have submitted or ‘given in’ to God and God’s will.

At least thats my understanding of what they are saying…

 

[inJESUS]

I still did not get a good answer as to why Muhammad did not apply all the Jewish dietary law and for what theological reasons was the picking and choosing. If any good answer was given please give me the post number.

Also, regarding the Mosaic law:

“On THE EIGHTH DAY the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.” Leviticus 12:3

Why didn’t Muhammad apply this as well?

you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you." Deuteronomy 14:3-7

The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the signs from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice)Quran 22:36

why did it become clean with Muhammad?

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring **sin **upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance." Deuteronomy 24:1-4

So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), he cannot, after that, re- marry her until after she has married another husband and he has divorced her. Quran 2:229

why did Muhammad call permissible what God calls shameful and detestable and sinful?

When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge in her body is blood, she shall be in her menstrual impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening (Leviticus 15:19)

keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they have purified ( Quran 2:222)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Why did Muhammad break the Mosaic Law?

“When you besiege a city for a long time, making war against it in order to take it, you shall not destroy its trees by wielding an axe against them. You may eat from them, but you shall not cut them down. Are the trees in the field human, that they should be besieged by you? Only the trees that you know are not trees for food you may destroy and cut down, that you may build siegeworks against the city that makes war with you, until it falls.” Deuteronomy 20:19-20

Whatever palm-trees you cut down, or left standing upon their roots, that was by God’s leave, and that He might degrade the ungodly. S. 59:5

Why did Muhammad , again, break the Law?

 

[kellie]

Following the ways of Jesus (pbuh) would make one a better person.

Doing something like eating pork which clearly contradicts his true teachings would make one considerably less good in the eyes of God.

Christians need to remember that there is a reason why God forbids certain kinds of food for his servants.

Put aside the question of the meat of camels for a while and contemplate on why God has forbidden the consumption of the meat of swine.

Once again I see the same arguments being thrashed around by the Muslims, and still not making any sense.

“Following the ways of Jesus…” has been said before on these forums, and all I say is , “Do you ride your donkey to work, or do you drive a car to work?”

There is a certain point when logic needs to be used when saying we should all live like Jesus.

We CANNOT live like Jesus literally, as we are in 2007, but we can live like Him morally, and practise all His teachings.

The NT tells us that all foods are now clean. It is written.
Jesus fulfilled the law.

And as for saying Jesus did not eat pork, so to be Christian, one shouldnt eat pork, Jesus was Jewish.
He built His new church, his new religion, founding it on Peter, then left us with it.
Therefore we are Christians, the new religion Jesus left us with, He never had to name this religion, it was simply His Church, lovingly referred to as Christianity as it spread the world.

 

[silverstar76]

Hello, i’m Elizabeth, a new mamber. I have a question about this issue. My brother has married to muslim women, in malaysia law, anyone that is none muslim married to muslim, they must convert to muslim. So is my brother. I really don’t understand why he totally act like we are not part of his family, every time when he came to our home, he wont even drink a cup of water, cause he said is ‘haram’. because we eat pork so every plate and glass or cup all have leave a mark behide. I’am hoping someone can explan why is it so forbidden about this meat? Thank you

 

[Sam_777]

Hello, i’m Elizabeth, a new mamber. I have a question about this issue. My brother has married to muslim women, in malaysia law, anyone that is none muslim married to muslim, they must convert to muslim. So is my brother. I really don’t understand why he totally act like we are not part of his family, every time when he came to our home, he wont even drink a cup of water, cause he said is ‘haram’. because we eat pork so every plate and glass or cup all have leave a mark behide. I’am hoping someone can explan why is it so forbidden about this meat? Thank you

Welcome Elizabeth to CAF,

First let us clarify that, its not a Malaysian law, its the Islamic law which impose that, where:

• A Muslim man can marry a Christian or a Jew women BUT NOT atheist or any other religion.
• A Muslim women CAN NOT marry other than a Muslim man (even if he was a Christian or a Jew). (A)
  
  Second, pork is prohibited in Islam per (Quran 2:173), (Quran 5:3), (Quran 16:115).

I really don’t know why people like to eat pork, its more fatty than the beef, and the untreated pork has worms per these Youtube videos (1) (2).

I myself will not eat pork even when I convert completely to Christianity, so if you love your brother, show him that love, stop eating pork and tell him that, he might admire Christianity because of that behaviour.

 

[dzheremi]

Sam makes a good point. There are some Muslims in this thread who think that Christians must eat pork or insist upon eating it, for some reason. This isn’t so, from what I understand. I personally don’t eat pork because I don’t really like the taste and whenever I have eaten it in the past I’ve felt very sick. I know that in some instances in history, Christians have eaten pork for symbolic reasons (such as the case of the Spanish Christians after the reconquista, to symbolize the end of Muslim rule in their country). That’s fine, but I don’t believe any Christian is required to eat pork. We are just not forbidden from eating it in the way that Muslims or Jews are.

As others have noted, it is written that it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man, but what comes out!

 

[Psalter]

I really don’t know why people like to eat pork, its more fatty than the beef, and the untreated pork has worms per these Youtube videos (1) (2).

I myself will not eat pork even when I convert completely to Christianity, so if you love your brother, show him that love, stop eating pork and tell him that, he might admire Christianity because of that behaviour.

Because it’s delicious! First of all, those videos are fake. I doubt those are even real worms in the video, it looks like rice. ANY meat will develop worms or larvae in it if it is left to sit for several hours, especially if it is left outside where flies will lay their larvae in the meat. This is true of pork as well as chicken, beef, lamb, fish, etc. As long as it is prepared according to standards and is cooked at a proper temperature, it is healthy to eat.

“Peter went up to the housetop about noon, to pray there. He was hungry, and waiting for a meal; and while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opening, and a bundle, like a great sheet, let down by its four corners on to the earth; in it were all kinds of four-footed beasts, and things that creep on the earth, and all the birds of heaven. And a voice came to him, ‘Rise up, Peter, lay about thee and eat.’ ‘It cannot be, Lord,’ answered Peter, ‘Never in my life have I eaten anything profane, anything unclean.’ Then the voice came to him a second time, ‘It is not for thee to call anything profane, which God has made clean.’ Three times this happened, and then the bundle was drawn up again into heaven.” (Acts 10:9-16)

“So no one must be allowed to take you to task over what you eat or drink, or in the matter of observing feasts, and new moons, and sabbath days; all these were but shadows cast by future events, but the reality is found in Christ…If, by dying with Christ, you have parted company with worldly principles, why do you still live by these prescriptions, as if the world were still your element? Prescriptions against touching, or tasting, or handling those creatures which vanish altogether as we enjoy them, all based on the will and the word of men?” (Colossians 2:16ff)

“For the clean (of heart) all things are clean, but for the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean; for both their mind and their conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:15)

Interestingly, I was asking some friends who were from Saudi Arabia why they will drink alcohol but will not eat pork, when both are forbidden under Islam. They thought that eating pork was worse than alcohol, because, according to them, eating pork will make you “not jealous.” According to them, pigs are the only animals who have sex with pigs they aren’t married to (lol!) and if you eat pork, you will eventually lose any sense of jealousy and become promiscuous and allow your spouse to have sex with other men. I said, “I eat pork and I’m not at all like that.” And they replied, “Well…you must not eat a lot of it then…”

Now not only is this incredibly absurd, superstitious, and outright false, it contradicts what Jesus said, that uncleanliness comes from our hearts and not what we put in our mouths and our bellies:
A reading from the Holy Gospel according to St. Matthew:

“Do you not observe that any uncleanness which finds its way into a man’s mouth travels down into his belly, and so is cast into the sewer; whereas all that comes out of his mouth comes from the heart, and it is not that which makes a man unclean? It is from the heart that his wicked designs come, his sins of murder, adultery, fornication, theft, perjury and blasphemy. It is these make a man unclean; he is not made unclean by eating without washing his hands.” (Matthew 15:17-20)

The Gospel of the Lord; Praise be Thee, O Christ!

 

[Psalter]

Sam makes a good point. There are some Muslims in this thread who think that Christians must eat pork or insist upon eating it, for some reason. This isn’t so, from what I understand. I personally don’t eat pork because I don’t really like the taste and whenever I have eaten it in the past I’ve felt very sick. I know that in some instances in history, Christians have eaten pork for symbolic reasons (such as the case of the Spanish Christians after the reconquista, to symbolize the end of Muslim rule in their country). That’s fine, but I don’t believe any Christian is required to eat pork. We are just not forbidden from eating it in the way that Muslims or Jews are.

As others have noted, it is written that it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man, but what comes out!

This is true.

“But him who is weak in faith [has an over-delicate conscience], receive, without disputes about opinions. For one believes that he may eat all things; but he who is weak, let him eat vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who art thou to judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls; but he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. For one esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let everyone be convinced in his own mind. He who regards the day, regards it for the Lord; and he who eats, eats for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God. And who who does not eat, abstains for the Lord, and gives thanks to God.”

(Romans 14:1-6)

 

[inJESUS]

that is true but Muhammad forbade pigs yet allowed camel meat as if the law is about animals per se…

 

[cathopologist]

Terrestrial Animals
among the domestic animals only goats, sheep, cow and camel are Halaal (permissible to eat) while flesh of horse, donkey and mule is detestable (Makruh), other than these six animals all domestic animals are forbidden to eat (haraam).

Animals having claws are considered Haraam and hoofed animals are mostly considered Halaal though some are considered as Makruh (unpleasant) such as Horse, *** etc. Birds that flap their wings more and glide less while flying are Halaal and those who glide more and flap their wings less are Haraam.

Birds
Birds like pigeon and all its kind are Halaal.
Bat, peacocks who have webbed feet or birds strong enough which can tear apart animal; or hunting birds, like Charkh (one kind of bird) Eagle, Shaheen, Baashiq (which is also called as Baahsaa) or a weak bird like Vulture or crow and its kind should be avoided. There are others that have been made permissible or forbidden. As a general rule any bird that has not been explicitly forbidden we can apply the following “Birds that flap their wings more and glide less while flying are Halaal and those who glide more and flap their wings less are Haraam.” such as chicken, or turkey.

Aquatic Animals
As regards aquatic animals, only those fishes are Halaal which have scales

Every animal that dies without the proper religious procedure is forbidden. If it has warm blood then it would also be Najis (ritually impure) Islamic Jurisprudence has specified and discussed in detail and prescribed the animals whose flesh is allowed.

more resources on the subject: al-islam.org/laws/hunting.html#2633

Hi famdigy, I live in Singapore and have many Muslim friends and colleagues. I noticed one of the ha’ram listed is birds with webbed feet. Does that include ducks? Cause i have seen some Muslim (Halal restaurants) selling the Muslim version of Duck Rice. My Muslim friends also eat it. And who in the right mind would want to eat a crow?

 

[silverstar76]

I myself will not eat pork even when I convert completely to Christianity, so if you love your brother, show him that love, stop eating pork and tell him that, he might admire Christianity because of that behaviour.

Thanks for the info sam, i x’cually wanted to know why my brother don’t even want to drink a cup of water at our home, is not that we serve him with pork, we understand that he is forbidden to eat pork and we respect his religion.