Islam and the Crucifixion

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Here is the basic story- A dead man touched the bones of Elijah (or was it Elisha? crud. clarification please, if someone knows it) and came back to life. Again, what conflicts in the four Gospels?

EDIT-Just looked it up, its Elisha. I apologize for that. Here it is-

2 Kings 13:20-30 (New International Version)

20 Elisha died and was buried.
Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

I apologize for the confusion.
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: Here is the basic story- A dead man touched the bones of Elijah (or was it Elisha? crud. clarification please, if someone knows it) and came back to life. Again, what conflicts in the four Gospels?

Jermin Savory: I’m not tring to link the gospels up with elisha, i’m tring to say that the accounts of Jesus (P) resurrection are serious flawed.
 
Jermin Savory said:
**Fuzzbunny **If a ghost said hi to me, I would not think he is Ressurected in the sense that Jesus was. That makes no sense. Jesus was Ressurected in flesh and blood like Elijah’s bones effect, and those he raised, not like those at the end of the world. If we cannot agree that there are two kinds of ressurection, and that the kind Jesus was ressurected by was not the kind at the end of the world, there is no point in discussing this. You and I have two different definitions of ressurection as used in this sense.
**

Jermin Savory:** Why are you presenting a story that isn’t revelant to this one? How can you compare to different situations? Not logical. There is no such thing as “resurrected in flesh” Hebrews 9:27 after a man dies its the day of ressurection. If he died it would have been the day of resurrection.
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Again, judgement appears to come some time after someone dies. I point to Lazarus, the little girl Jesus ressurected, and the man ressurected in the post I just made as people being ressurected before Judgement. Again, people have died, and come back before judgement.
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: Here is the basic story- A dead man touched the bones of Elijah (or was it Elisha? crud. clarification please, if someone knows it) and came back to life. Again, what conflicts in the four Gospels?

Jermin Savory: I’m not tring to link the gospels up with elisha, i’m tring to say that the accounts of Jesus (P) resurrection are serious flawed.
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And what I am saying is that “body and flesh” ressurection, like the examples above, is possible. As I have asked, what contradicts? And as I have said, historians don’t care much about conflicting secondary details. As I’ve said, we have two irreconcilable accounts of Hannibal crossing the Alps, and everyone says it has happened. I ask you to look for it in my previous posts.
 
In the name of Allah

In he case of Jesus (P) my solution to this problem is that he was in a coma from excruciating pain but didn’t recover until he was in the tomb. Fuzz If I went to sleep for a few hours and I rise, does that mean that i’m resurrected? No.
 
He was “asleep” for a couple days. Again, read the link on the swoon theory! There is no way that he could have survived, let alone reappear in a beautiful new body that is not covered in blood and sweat and scars. If this is all that happened, the Apostles would have pitied him and nursed him to health, not praised him as a conquerer of death. How did he escape from the tomb anyway, in such pitiful condition?
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: And as I have said, historians don’t care much about conflicting secondary details. As I’ve said, we have two irreconcilable accounts of Hannibal crossing the Alps, and everyone says it has happened. I ask you to look for it in my previous posts.

Jermin Savory: Its not in the nature of an historian to tell you that Jesus (P) resurrection, this is theological. Historians can only tell you that a man named Jesus (P) existed ect.
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: And as I have said, historians don’t care much about conflicting secondary details. As I’ve said, we have two irreconcilable accounts of Hannibal crossing the Alps, and everyone says it has happened. I ask you to look for it in my previous posts.

Jermin Savory: Its not in the nature of an historian to tell you that Jesus (P) resurrection, this is theological. Historians can only tell you that a man named Jesus (P) existed ect.
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Jesus was not the only person to ever be crucified. We know how he was crucified by other accounts, as well as that found in the Bible. What happened to him is constant with modern medicine. What I’m also saying is that the Bible has proven to be accurate (again, The Case for Christ proves this without a doubt) and thus can be considered history.
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: He was “asleep” for a couple days. Again, read the link on the swoon theory! There is no way that he could have survived, let alone reappear in a beautiful new body that is not covered in blood and sweat and scars. If this is all that happened, the Apostles would have pitied him and nursed him to health, not praised him as a conquerer of death. How did he escape from the tomb anyway, in such pitiful condition?

**
Jermin Savory:** I’m not interest in the swoon theory. Blood and sweat and scars. They rapped him and massaged him, he was put in the coffin to recover by one of his sympathizers.
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny: He was “asleep” for a couple days. Again, read the link on the swoon theory! There is no way that he could have survived, let alone reappear in a beautiful new body that is not covered in blood and sweat and scars. If this is all that happened, the Apostles would have pitied him and nursed him to health, not praised him as a conquerer of death. How did he escape from the tomb anyway, in such pitiful condition?

**
Jermin Savory:** I’m not interest in the swoon theory. Blood and sweat and scars. They rapped him and massaged him, he was put in the coffin to recover by one of his sympathizers.
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What I am saying is read it because it tells of what happens when someone is crucified and how they die, if I’m not mistaken. Again, many people died by the PAIN ALONE. It is not easy to survive at all! The guards, if he was not dead, would be killed. They made sure he was dead.
 
In the name of Allah
**
Fuzzbunny:** Jesus was not the only person to ever be crucified. We know how he was crucified by other accounts, as well as that found in the Bible. What happened to him is constant with modern medicine.

Jermin Savory: Please Prove you case. And I never stated that he was the only one crucified so why are you refuting my on that point?

Wow i’m at a hundred posts and I had 19 this morning!!! :eek:
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah
**
Fuzzbunny:** Jesus was not the only person to ever be crucified. We know how he was crucified by other accounts, as well as that found in the Bible. What happened to him is constant with modern medicine.

Jermin Savory: Please Prove you case. And I never stated that he was the only one crucified so why are you refuting my on that point?

Wow i’m at a hundred posts and I had 19 this morning!!! :eek:
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The crucifing thing-I misread what you said, I thought you were saying that history couldn’t approve the crucifixion methods. I have been trying to prove my case! I’ve been too busy refuting yours. Read the link!!! It shows it is impossible for him to survive! I am tired. I’ve got to get up early tomorrow, so I’m going to bed. At this rate, we’re going to go back and forth until the end of time, and personally, I don’t want too.

Ienjoyed the conversation, my friend.

And grats on your post number! Our plan to increase our posts has succeeded my accomplist…MWUAHAHAH! 👍

Take it easy.
 
In the name of Allah

**
Fuzzbunny:** What I am saying is read it because it tells of what happens when someone is crucified and how they die, if I’m not mistaken. Again, many people died by the PAIN ALONE. It is not easy to survive at all! The guards, if he was not dead, would be killed. They made sure he was dead.

Jermin Savory: They didn’t make sure he was dead, they said that they SAW him to be dead, how is that actually knowing that he was specifically dead? Nonsense. John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and thats a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, “but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out,” (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he “appeared” to be dead so therefore Jesus did not die and my case still stands.
 
In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny, sleep well, may Allah guide you…
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

**
Fuzzbunny:** What I am saying is read it because it tells of what happens when someone is crucified and how they die, if I’m not mistaken. Again, many people died by the PAIN ALONE. It is not easy to survive at all! The guards, if he was not dead, would be killed. They made sure he was dead.

Jermin Savory: They didn’t make sure he was dead, they said that they SAW him to be dead, how is that actually knowing that he was specifically dead? Nonsense. John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and thats a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, “but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out,” (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he “appeared” to be dead so therefore Jesus did not die and my case still stands.
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OK OK LAST POST I SWEAR! Look back, blood and water are not a sign of life. Blood comes from someone recently dead, and the water is not water, but a water-looking liquid in the membrane around the heart, called pericardial effusion. I forgot the name. And saw that he was already dead means that they thought he was already dead. If Roman soldiers, whos job it is to kill says someone is already dead, he is dead. Saw is just terminology. He is dead and saw he is dead, he means the same thing. If he didn’t mean that, then they would not preach he was raised. Not looking back on what you post. I don’t want to get sucked back in, I can’t afford the lack of sleep.:eek: I’ve got to handle rambungtious (huuuuuuge spelling mistake) 10 year olds for three hours tomorrow.
 
Jermin Savory:
In the name of Allah

In he case of Jesus (P) my solution to this problem is that he was in a coma from excruciating pain but didn’t recover until he was in the tomb. Fuzz If I went to sleep for a few hours and I rise, does that mean that i’m resurrected? No.
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A person could “recover” fully from being scourged and crucified? Do you mean to tell me that if I was crucified, I could go to sleep for a couple days (Jesus was dead for three days, not a matter of hours) and I’d be perfectly fine?
 
Pope John Paul ll put it this way:

“Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran (the Qur’an), clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God’s self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.”

" Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity." (Crossing the Threshold of Hope)
 
Why do certain individuals on this forum keep repeating that the one they call God, who is Everlasting, Eternal, All Powerful etc. is dead or died or suffered or was humialted by people , the thing that was created. This is God you are talking about, how in all honesty can you say these things and not feel blasphemy. I honestly and deeply don’t mean to offend but how can you hold God in the highest esteem and yet say that he died in the same breath. I know how Catholics say that Jesus(pbuh) is one with God or God’s word in flesh but in your eyes he is still God or a part of God. My heart stops when ever I read the posts on the crucifixion because in the back of my mind I am thinking these people believe Jesus(pbuh) to be God and this is what they are saying about “God”.

p.s please don’t give me some line about how this is all God’s mercy to mankind by redeeming our endless, unforgivable, original sin by dieing, by being subjected to humliation by having blood shed. This is not God, God is not in his creation, God is not oppressed by his creation and God does not die or suffer or bleed or hunger or thrist or feel pain or is humilated, this is what HIS creation feels and goes through.

I AM DEEPLY SORRY IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE. I pray that there are no hard feelings, I just had to get that off my chest. Once again, please don’t take this the wrong way because this is my view of what God is.
 
This is the View of God in Islam:

In islam God is not in HIS creation or resembles anything in/of HIS creation. HE is neighter male nor female ( the arabic Word for God is Allah which is neutral, it is the english translation of God which is masculine). No body knows what God looks like, no body has seen what God looks like or even tries to think of what God looks like. This is Blasphemy. In Islam we know God through his attributes or 99 names in which they are glorified. This links tells you thoes 99 names.

beautifulislam.com/intro/names_of_god.htm
 
This is the view of God in the Roman Catholic Church**:**
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;

and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,

Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Sprit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

Amen.
 
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