Islam and the Crucifixion

  • Thread starter Thread starter RyanL
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
  1. When did crucifixion become a myth? Was Jesus on the cross? You have yet to provide any evidence to refute the “Medical Aspects of the Crucifixion” that I posted earlier in the thread…
    **
    Jemrin Savory:** Crucifixion became a myth when people actually started believeing that Jesus (P) died on the Cross. My Qur’an didn’t say he was on the Cross, therefore I don’t believe that he was put on the cross but I’ve presented a solution as to what may have happend. In the end my final summation is that Jesus (P) did not die nor suffer death on the cross in the hands of his enemies. Medical aspect? What is that? How can you medically determine whether Jesus (p) was dead or alive when the soldiers themselves couldn’t even tell if he was dead, they said they SAW him to be dead, they didn’t say, “He was dead.”
  2. All martyrs die for God. Those who do so out of love for God have expressed a greater love than Allah has expressed for you. They have given themselves completely and totally, sacraficing everything for their love. Allah has not done the same for you. They have shown greater love than Allah. Jesus has died for us (me and you). His sacrafice, as God, is infintely greater than any expression of love that we could show Him.
    **
    Jermin Savory:** RyanL you are lost, and you are totally ignorant of islam, you are making a fool out of yourself, why do you speak about things you have no knowledge about? How do you know the love that Allah has expressed for me, are you divine? do you live with me? are you an angel. You sound so ignorant, how dare you speak against God this way, you are due for the hell fire if you don’t change your speech! Jesus has not died for you and me, according to you he died, and that is for you not me, that is your belief he died, which isn’t true.
  3. God created man. God decided that man should rest. God decided that man should use the bathroom. God decided that man should eat. After God created man (and before we turned from Him through Adam), He looked at us and declared, “It is good!”. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of these things. None of them are sinful or disgraceful. How could there be something disgraceful about what God has made?!?
    **
    Jermin Savory**: I never said there was anything wrong with the above things you’ve mentioned, What I said was wrong is that you call Jesus (P) God when Jesus (P) did all of the above mentioned things. And my reply is that God doesnot rest, God doesn’t go to the bathroom and such, therefore Jesus (P) was not and is not God. You’ve just spoken against your own beliefs.
  4. If, in His infinite love, He condescended to become like us (again, this is within His power), there would be nothing disgraceful about it. He would sacrifice nothing of His dignity and infinite perfection to take on our form. He is God. He cannot be less than He is.
    **
    Jermin Savory:** It is blasphemy and befitting to the majesty, divinity and knowledge of God that he should become a man just to know how we feel, does God not know how his creation feel? Shouldn’t he who created us know how we feel? You are so illogical. Nothing you say makes sense, can you start thinking?
  5. God is not a pie, that you can divide up into 1/3’s. God is One. He is Triune. That’s Tri-Une, or 3-1. Trinity. One. Eternally alone, and eternally together. This is the mystery of the Christian faith. In mathematical terms, it is not 1+1+1=3. It is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
Jermin Savory: You Contradicted yourself in one sentence! How funny. “God is One. He is tri-une.” RyanL, the word tri means three. One means one, How can something be 3 and 1 at the same time? Please make some sense. Its amazing how you say that God is not a pie but you make him into a pie by saying that he is the second of the trinity or first of the trinity which consist of 3 in the God head. This confusing doctrine was never taught by any of the Prophets of God in the past neither was it taught by Jesus. (P) And RyanL, in islam, we don’t believe in Mysteries, We believe that God is One, Which is Allah, the One True Creator who Created me and you.
 
In the name of Allah

RyanL: Yahweh loves even those who do not repent.

**
Jermin Savory:** I never said he didn’t like disbelievers, However he prefers that his creation is serving him all together. He blesses those who does good and strives in his way. Doesn’t mean that he doesn’t bless the non-Believers becase as you can see they are many people who are not following God, but are still getting pass. Allah is Merciful. to his creation, even though be backslide time after time.
 
In the name of Allah

**
RyanL:You would not give up anything. He is the same God who made you. He is the same God who loves you. He is the same God who has been kind to you.
**
Jemrin Savory: No, I will not worship other beings other than Allah, He is the One And the Only God who deserves worship.

RyanL: My question, in return, is what makes you think my God was created? No Catholic has ever claimed this. Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father, and Is Who Is. He is the Word of God - the Eternal Word, made flesh.

Jermin Savory: Because Allah (The True Creator) said “Be!” and he was. He brought Jesus (P) into existence. And Jesus (P) will die a natural death. Your god is Jesus, according to you (P) and according to the Bible he was born of a vergin, which means he was BORN, brought into existence. Jesus (P) was not the word of God, He was A word from God. He was a Prophet as he said, he never Said I am God.

RyanL: As I said, you would not give up anything. You would, however, gain a God who loves you eternally, infinitely, and perfectly. You would gain the only one who can bridge the infinite gap between us creatures and the Creator.

**Jermin Savory: **Allah loved me at my creation and will love me to the end, I don’t need your god man or your crucifixion to forgive me of my sins. I pray to Allah for the forgivness of my sins. Allah is the All knower and the All hearer therefore he knows and hears when I pray.
 
Allah said; ‘o son of adam, if you come to me with sins that will fill the whole of the earth, the heavens and all that is within and simply asked for my forgivess, I will forgive you.’
You see RyanL, only the creator of mankind has this unlimitless, unbreakable mercy and to give this mercy onto mankind, who is truly ungrateful to thier Lord, how much love is in this? Muslims don’t relentless repeat God loves you, God loves you, God loves you beacuse we understand the awe inspiring mercy that is being given to us free of charge. To be in the presence of God purified because we repented is so full of love that’s its a given. I mean what did mankind ever do to earn such mercy when we are so ungrateful; because God is the purest form of love. When muslims talk about God’s mercy we are also talking about his love, compassion, wisedom.
wa salam
 
ok I have a question.
I have heard muslims say that Jesus(as) is not God beacuse when he was on the cross he cried out ’ father why have you forsaken me’ and the catholics answer back by saying he said this beacuse he took in all of mankinds sins and in this state he was separated from the father and the shock of it was what made him cry this out. ( I am paraphrasing from memory, if I got this all wrong, then I am sorry and will take it back).I honestly do not mean to be insulting but when you say Jesus was separated from God what does this mean? Because to my understanding catholics believe that Jesus(as) is God all mighty himself. So does this mean that God separated himself from himself? I pray that you don’t take the question the wrong way, i’m just confused and wish to understand better.

wa salam
 
Fatuma,

Good question!

My understanding is that on the Cross Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy and prayed with these words to His Father and for our benefit and understanding.

The words He cries out would have been familiar to the Jews as a form of prayer in times of anguish. They are from Psalm 22. Jesus both prayed to His Father and drew posterity’s attention to the Messianic prophecy He now fulfilled on the Cross, note verses 11-18 of the psalm: “Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with open mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherds; and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pieced my hands and my feet. I may count all my bones; they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vestures.”

These words were written propheticly 600 years before the event. Jesus focuses our attention on the their fulfillment in Him. He God is still in control of history and destiny.

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
 
Fatuma, the one thing that Imacculata didn’t mention is the ending of Psalm 22…for it doesn’t end in a negative message, but a positive one!!!

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing. (the last verse Immaculata wrote)
Code: 
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off; 
   O my Strength, come quickly to help me. 

20 Deliver my life from the sword, 
   my precious life from the power of the dogs. 

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; 
   save [d](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2022&version=31#fen-NIV-14226d)] me from the horns of the wild oxen. 

22 I will declare your name to my brothers; 
   in the congregation I will praise you. 

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! 
   All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! 
   Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! 

24 For he has not despised or disdained 
   the suffering of the afflicted one; 
   he has not hidden his face from him 
   but has listened to his cry for help. 

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; 
   before those who fear you [e](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2022&version=31#fen-NIV-14230e)] will I fulfill my vows. 

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; 
   they who seek the LORD will praise him— 
   may your hearts live forever! 

27 All the ends of the earth 
   will remember and turn to the LORD, 
   and all the families of the nations 
   will bow down before him, 

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD 
   and he rules over the nations. 

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; 
   **all who go down to the dust will kneel before him**— 
   those who cannot keep themselves alive. 

30 Posterity will serve him; 
   future generations will be told about the Lord.     31 They will proclaim his righteousness 
   to a people yet unborn— 
   for he has done it.
 
Jermin Savory said:
**
Jemrin Savory:** No, I will not worship other beings other than Allah, He is the One And the Only God who deserves worship.
Click to expand...

Amen! I, likewise, will worship none other than God, for He is indeed the One and the Only God who deserves worship. I think you still misunderstand the Trinity - I’ll explain in a bit.

Jermin Savory said:
Jermin Savory: Because Allah (The True Creator) said “Be!” and he was. He brought Jesus (P) into existence. And Jesus (P) will die a natural death. Your god is Jesus, according to you (P) and according to the Bible he was born of a vergin, which means he was BORN, brought into existence. Jesus (P) was not the word of God, He was A word from God. He was a Prophet as he said, he never Said I am God.
Click to expand...

Birth brings no one into existance. Conception****brings *humans *into existance. Jesus, however, existed before His conception. He took on flesh at the Incarnation (this is the official word for Jesus/God becoming man), but He was not created at the Incarnation. Can you see a difference? If I have an idea for an invention, then I make my invention, my idea did not become an invention when I made it. Indeed, it existed before I made it (in my head), but it only became *material *at its construction. In a similar way, Jesus existed as God before the Incarnation, but only became material *at *the Incarnation. There was never a time that Jesus didn’t exist, but there was a time when Jesus did not have human form. He is the Word made Flesh.

Jermin Savory said:
**Jermin Savory: **Allah loved me at my creation and will love me to the end, I don’t need your god man or your crucifixion to forgive me of my sins. I pray to Allah for the forgivness of my sins. Allah is the All knower and the All hearer therefore he knows and hears when I pray.
Click to expand...

Just so I’m sure…you are determining what you do and do not need to receive forgiveness from God?

OK. Time for a lesson on the Trinity. I like St. Patrick’s explaination of the shamrock, but I’ll start with another poster’s idea of the Mobius Strip. How many sides does a Mobius Strip have? 2 or 1? Well…both! It’s the same manner of thing with the Trinity. Are there 3 or 1? Well…both! If you can show me one side of the Mobius Strip without the other, I will grant that God is not one.

On to St. Patrick! If you look at a shamrock (blackdog4kids.com/holiday/pat/wallpaper/shamrock-med.gif ), it has three leaves. Which leaf is the shamrock? Well…none. If I separate a leaf from the shamrock, is that leaf the shamrock? No. So the leaf is not the shamrock. If I separate all three leaves from the shamrock, is a shamrock what remains? No. You cannot have a shamrock without a leaf. Is there only one leaf? No. There are three, which together make up the shamrock. God is three in one, Tri-une. He is not one without the other, and He cannot be separated from Himself. He is One. He is also three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Does that help?

RyanL
 
40.png
Immaculata:
Fatuma,

Good question!

My understanding is that on the Cross Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy and prayed with these words to His Father and for our benefit and understanding.

The words He cries out would have been familiar to the Jews as a form of prayer in times of anguish. They are from Psalm 22. Jesus both prayed to His Father and drew posterity’s attention to the Messianic prophecy He now fulfilled on the Cross, note verses 11-18 of the psalm: “Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with open mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherds; and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pieced my hands and my feet. I may count all my bones; they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vestures.”

These words were written propheticly 600 years before the event. Jesus focuses our attention on the their fulfillment in Him. He God is still in control of history and destiny.

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Click to expand...
According to Psalms 118:17-18 which states " I shall not die but live and declare the deeds of the lord." 18 also states, “The lord chastised me harshly, but did not hand me over to death.”
 
In the name of Allah

RyanL: Amen! I, likewise, will worship none other than God, for He is indeed the One and the Only God who deserves worship. I think you still misunderstand the Trinity - I’ll explain in a bit.

**
Jermin Savory:** Ryan you are fooling yourself, you do not worship God alone, you worship Jesus (P) along side with God. God existed before Jesus (P), Jesus (P) was a creation of God. Therefore you worship Jesus (P) beside God, thinking that he is God, Which he is not. RyanL as far as your trinity, I don’t believe in mysteries, Allah never revealed mysteries to his prophet, he was pretty clear about his divinity and his nature. Allah never told Moses (P) Jesus (P) or Abraham (P) or The Prophet Muhammad (P) that he is One in Three, or that He is a triune God. This is a belief that your early church fathers have made and still is believed today. They didn’t even understand the trinity themselves, and now you think you can understand it enough to explain it?

**
RyanL:** Jesus, however, existed before His conception. He took on flesh at the Incarnation (this is the official word for Jesus/God becoming man), but He was not created at the Incarnation. Can you see a difference? If I have an idea for an invention, then I make my invention, my idea did not become an invention when I made it. Indeed, it existed before I made it (in my head), but it only became material at its construction. In a similar way, Jesus existed as God before the Incarnation, but only became material at the Incarnation. There was never a time that Jesus didn’t exist, but there was a time when Jesus did not have human form. He is the Word made Flesh.

**
Jermin Savory:** Incorrect, Please prove to me that Jesus (P) was not created. According to you, Jesus (P) was not created and that means that he is God, therefore if he is God, then why didn’t he know when the hour will come? Why didn’t he tell peter that it will be such and such if he was indeed God, or apart of the God head Trinity? This belief is illogical. God does not reveal mysteries to his creation, he is not the author of confusion, neither is he the author of the confusing trinity.

**
RyanL:** Just so I’m sure…you are determining what you do and do not need to receive forgiveness from God?

Jermin Savory: Incorrect, let me requote “Allah loved me at my creation and will love me to the end, I don’t need your god man or your crucifixion to forgive me of my sins. I pray to Allah for the forgivness of my sins. Allah is the All knower and the All hearer therefore he knows and hears when I pray.” I never say what you said above. Please take time to read and understand what i’m saying, just like I take time to read and understand your passages.

Qur’an 112: 1-4
  1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
  2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
  3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
  4. And there is none like unto Him.
 
Jermin, if you weren’t so long-winded in all your posts maybe people would actually take you seriously.
 
That’s what I’m talking about Luigi.
In your answer Jesus(as) is praising his Lord to not leave him and he is also commmanding the people to worship their Lord. This doesn’t answer my questio on whether God separated himself from himself. You believe Jesus(as) to be God but when he was on the cross, he was separated from the father and his “eternal love” (as you would say). How could this be, how could 3 be in 1 if one of the 3 was not connected for the amount of time it took to take in sin and died.
Also, the catholic belief is that Jesus(as) is God/son of God/word of God/God in flesh, whatever, I am also under the idea that when you say that he died on the cross, he took in all of mankinds sins. So, in the catholic view God took in sin within himself ,( making himself no longer pure), died( making himself no longer eternal) and then resurrecting himself.

wa salam
 
Also, Jesus(as) died for your sins right. Is this a literal death or a metaphorical death. Because how can God died literally and if he died metaphorical, well this still doesn’t seem right to use the words God and death together. God and eternal maybe, God and everlasting sure, God and all power most definitely.
wa salam
 
In the name of Allah

Very Good reasoning fatuma, may Allah bless you for the logic you present. In-sha-Allah our catholic friends will have respect for God…
**
Surah AN-NISA 4:171**

“O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Trinity(three). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.”
 
**exoflare said : Jesus, the second person of God, literally died a physical death. ** :bigyikes:
Is this what the other catholics on this forum believe?

Aoothoo billahi meen ash-shaytan ar-rajeem. “I seek Allah’s protection from Satan the accursed.”

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji’un. “Truly we belong to Allah and truly to Him shall we return.”

wa salam
 
The definition of human death is the state in which a man’s soul is separated from his body. Jesus, being fully Man as well as fully God experienced a real death on the Cross. When this happened, Christ’s Body was placed in the tomb while His Soul descended to hell (also translated as sheol or the place of the dead). His Divinity was not affected by death, so His Divinity was still fully united to both His Body and His Soul while He was dead. At His Resurrection, His Soul was reunited with His Body.
 
Thank you for that answer but this still doesn’t answer whether God separated himself from himself when Jesus(as) took in mankinds sin.
Joseph Bilodeau, you said tha Jesus(as) body died but his soul or spirit did not. This makes me ask the question (I’m anticipating an answer that you will say that mankinds sins was placed in Jesus(as)'s body, the body died but his soul was untouched and if this is not your answer then ignore it because this is one of many scenarios that I came up with to answer this question) then how was something you consider to be God’s soul/spirit be in the body/vessele of something that was sin.

wa salam
 
In the name of Allah

**
Joseph Bilodeau:** The definition of human death is the state in which a man’s soul is separated from his body. Jesus, being fully Man as well as fully God experienced a real death on the Cross. When this happened, Christ’s Body was placed in the tomb while His Soul descended to hell (also translated as sheol or the place of the dead). His Divinity was not affected by death, so His Divinity was still fully united to both His Body and His Soul while He was dead. At His Resurrection, His Soul was reunited with His Body.

Jermin Savory: First, it is not possible to be fully man and fully God. Don’t you know that you are contradicting yourself? God is eternal, to be fully man is to have a beginning and to be appointed a day to die. God doesn’t die therefore he was not a man. How dare you say such things about God! And are you sayng that God died? and if your answer is that God didn’t die on the cross, Jesus (P) died, then Jesus (P) isn’t God + one man can’t carry the sins of the world. And another point is, for the alleged “Crucifixion” of Christ, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was a child and that is according to Exodus 12:5.
 
Jermin Savory said:
In the name of Allah

Joseph Bilodeau: The definition of human death is the state in which a man’s soul is separated from his body. Jesus, being fully Man as well as fully God experienced a real death on the Cross. When this happened, Christ’s Body was placed in the tomb while His Soul descended to hell (also translated as sheol or the place of the dead). His Divinity was not affected by death, so His Divinity was still fully united to both His Body and His Soul while He was dead. At His Resurrection, His Soul was reunited with His Body.

Jermin Savory: First, it is not possible to be fully man and fully God. Don’t you know that you are contradicting yourself? God is eternal, to be fully man is to have a beginning and to be appointed a day to die. God doesn’t die therefore he was not a man. How dare you say such things about God! And are you sayng that God died? and if your answer is that God didn’t die on the cross, Jesus (P) died, then Jesus (P) isn’t God + one man can’t carry the sins of the world. And another point is, for the alleged “Crucifixion” of Christ, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was a child and that is according to Exodus 12:5.
Click to expand...

Hello Jermin. I hope you have been well. I am curious how man can question what is possible for God to do? Your first sentence above leads me to believe that you (man) know God’s limits/lack of limits? Does Islam teach that God has limitations? Could God not turn me into a fly if He so chose? If your answer is yes, can you reconcile it with your statement above? Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top