Islam and the Crucifixion

[RyanL]

Muslims,

On another thread, the crucifixion of Jesus was mentioned. The position of Islam, it was asserted, was the Jesus did not die on the cross.

In as much as I understand the Qur’an (and my understanding is very limitted), Islam teaches that Jesus was not crucified unto death. I cite the following Surahs:

"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156)

“God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .

How is it that the Jews thought they killed Christ? Was Jesus on the cross or not? Was it an imposter, who simply looked like Jesus, or was the whole story made up? Or perhaps it was the case that Jesus was crucified and burried (tomb), but merely *appeared *dead? How are these Surahs to be understood?

The Peace of our Lord be with you always,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

As a Muslim, and new to the forum, I was told that their was evidence for the death of Christ. I was presented a link and here I am, I would like to know the evidence for the “Alledged” Crucifixion of Jesus. (P)

 

[hlgomez]

The Shroud of Turin is one of the surviving tangible evidence of Christ Jesus crucifixion. Here is more info if you want to discover more shroudstory.com/ or www.shroud.com

Below is another non-christian testimony which is a historical one. You can get more info on this one, too.

Jesus (or his crucifixion) is mentioned by the Roman historians Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius, by non-Roman historians Thallus and Phlegon, by the satirist Lucian of Samosata, by the Jewish Talmud, and by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, although the authenticity of portions of the latter is problematic. (26) The Shroud of Turin is considered by many to represent the actual burial cloth of Jesus, (22) and several publications concerning the medical aspects of his death draw conclusions from this assumption. (5,11) The Shroud of Turin and recent archaeological findings provide valuable information concerning Roman crucifixion practices. (22-24) The interpretations of modern writers, based on a knowledge of science and medicine not available in the first century, may offer additional insight concerning the possible mechanisms of Jesus’ death. (2,17) When taken in concert, certain facts – the extensive and early testimony of both Christian proponents and opponents, and their universal acceptance of Jesus as a true historical figure; the ethic of the gospel writers, and the shortness of the time interval between the events and the extant manuscripts; and the confirmation of the gospel accounts by historians and archaeological findings (26,27) – ensure a reliable testimony from which a modern medical interpretation of Jesus’ death may be made.

Pio

 

[Munawar]

RyanL:

How is it that the Jews thought they killed Christ? Was Jesus on the cross or not? Was it an imposter, who simply looked like Jesus, or was the whole story made up? Or perhaps it was the case that Jesus was crucified and burried (tomb), but merely *appeared *dead? How are these Surahs to be understood?

Hi Ryan,

A better translation is:

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

And it doesn’t go into details at what point he was raised up. Scholars have debated, and generally we beleive that someone else was made to look like Jesus, and crucified, or else the Jews put someone else on the crucifix pretending to be Jesus.

 

[exoflare]

My favorite part of this whole theory is that even Jesus’ own mother, standing right there at the foot of the cross, apparently could not tell the difference between her son and an impostor.

 

[hlgomez]

Hi Ryan,

A better translation is:

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

And it doesn’t go into details at what point he was raised up. Scholars have debated, and generally we beleive that someone else was made to look like Jesus, and crucified, or else the Jews put someone else on the crucifix pretending to be Jesus.

Munawar,

Have you dig into the stories of possesed individuals who were eventually liberated by excorcists? Why is it that at the name of Jesus, and the blessed crucifix shown to them, all demons moans with pains and are expelled? These are not invented stories of people. These are real stories.

Further, I suggest you read the facts about the shroud of Turin and its amazing description that fits perfectly to the man in the Sacred Scriptures. If this is just human inventions, why did God perfectly preserved this piece of evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion? Why not all those thousands who were crucified? Why just this “man” in the shroud?

Pio

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

Read The Case for Christ. It provides overwhelming evidence for Jesus. A third of the book is dedicated to the Ressurection. It was written by an Atheist who interviews famous scholars about Jesus, and converts to Christianity in the end. They also note that the Gospels were written soon enough after Jesus’ death that the odds of legends creeping into them are very, very low, and that they have been faithfully preserved. Check it out!

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Munawar:

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Munawar:

And it doesn’t go into details at what point he was raised up. Scholars have debated, and generally we beleive that someone else was made to look like Jesus, and crucified, or else the Jews put someone else on the crucifix pretending to be Jesus.

So, it makes more sense to believe this rather than Jesus actually having been crucified? And all of this comes nearly 600 years after the fact?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

exoflare:

My favorite part of this whole theory is that even Jesus’ own mother, standing right there at the foot of the cross, apparently could not tell the difference between her son and an impostor.

It sure does make for a great conspiracy theory…

 

[RyanL]

Munawar:

… generally we beleive that someone else was made to look like Jesus, and crucified, or else the Jews put someone else on the crucifix pretending to be Jesus.

Munawar,

Thank you for your response! I imagine that you ascribe to this theory, as it is the one you have postulated. My follow on question - how was it that His mother and friends thought it was Him? Was this the work of the Jews, or was this the divine preservation of one of Allah’s prophets?

If this response is short, could you please also tell me if Jesus died or if He was taken to Allah (from whence He will come again at the Last Judgement)?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Munawar]

RyanL:

Thank you for your response! I imagine that you ascribe to this theory, as it is the one you have postulated. My follow on question - how was it that His mother and friends thought it was Him? Was this the work of the Jews, or was this the divine preservation of one of Allah’s prophets?

Hello Ryan,

I believe what the Quran says: “…and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow…”

So the question becomes where is the proof that it was Jesus on the cross? Many people have mentioned that there were eye witnesses to the event. My question is, where is the documented proof of this? Are there authentic copies of these eye witnesses testimonies?

RyanL:

If this response is short, could you please also tell me if Jesus died or if He was taken to Allah (from whence He will come again at the Last Judgement)?

Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was raised up while alive to Heaven. He still has to come back to Earth, kill the anti-Christ and live a normal life and die normally.

Munawar

 

[RyanL]

Munawar,

Thank you again for your post! I am coming to understand more of Islam (although I am far from understanding the fullness of it), and I thank you for the knowledge.

Munawar:

I believe what the Quran says: “…and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow…”

This is really no sort of answer whatsoever. Either the Jews tried to trick people with an imposter (who even Jesus’ own mother and closest friends were fooled by), or Allah divinely interceeded. It is recorded in Christian, Jewish, and secular history that Jesus stood trial and was crucified. All evidence from the time period that deals with this subject affirms these facts, unanimously.

Munawar:

So the question becomes where is the proof that it was Jesus on the cross? Many people have mentioned that there were eye witnesses to the event. My question is, where is the documented proof of this? Are there authentic copies of these eye witnesses testimonies?

There are as many authentic copies of the eye witness accounts as there are authentic copies of the Qur’an. But that is neither here-nor-there. The fact remains that all sources from the time period affirm the same story - that Jesus was tried and crucified. The theory put forth is that it was someone else. Let us please either switch theories or stick to that one! Having it both ways is not allowed!

Munawar:

Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was raised up while alive to Heaven. He still has to come back to Earth, kill the anti-Christ and live a normal life and die normally.

From the translations of the Qur’an I was able to find:

• 019.033 *
  YUSUFALI: “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
  PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
  SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

How many deaths has/will Jesus suffer?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[hlgomez]

I believe what the Quran says: “…and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow…”

So the question becomes where is the proof that it was Jesus on the cross? Many people have mentioned that there were eye witnesses to the event. My question is, where is the documented proof of this? Are there authentic copies of these eye witnesses testimonies?

Munawar,

It’s ridiculous that you are trying to ask where are the testimonies of those who witnessed the event. The New Testament itself has that, but all were not written testimonies. We have the written (New Testament, such as the book of John, Jude, Peter, etc.) and oral testimonies of the crucified one who rose from the dead, but you don’t believe it.

Mohammed’s writings are certainly NOT testimonies to Jesus Christ. They are written 600± years ago, so why would you chose to believe it? The closest ones are the more authentic ones because they are the product of the witnesses themselves.

Pio

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hlgomez: Mohammed’s writings are certainly NOT testimonies to Jesus Christ. They are written 600± years ago, so why would you chose to believe it? The closest ones are the more authentic ones because they are the product of the witnesses themselves.

**
Jermin Savory**: We chose to believe Qur’an, because it is from God, and to besides, the gospels don’t agree with eachother on the alleged cricifixion. Why should we believe 4 people who we don’t even know their names Muchless believe in them when they all conflict with eachother and not even agreeing on the events of the “Crucifixion.”

 

[exoflare]

Jermin Savory: We chose to believe Qur’an, because it is from God

And if you say so, it must be true… right?

EDIT: Okay I don’t know if I should post this, but what they hay. I just now thought how entertaining it would be to watch a Muslims vs. LDS debate. I’m sure that would be a very well-formulated and thought-provoking discussion with the kind of logic both groups seem to use:

Mormon: “Book of Mormon is book of God!”
Muslim: “Holy Quran is book of God!”
Mormon: “Book of Mormon is book of God!”
Muslim: “Holy Quran is book of God!”
(repeat for about 2 hours or so…)

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

Exoflare: Okay I don’t know if I should post this, but what they hay. I just now thought how entertaining it would be to watch a Muslims vs. LDS debate. I’m sure that would be a very well-formulated and thought-provoking discussion with the kind of logic both groups seem to use:
**
Jermin Savory: **Its even more entertaining to watch you guys try and prove the Trinity from the Bible. The later day saints don’t believe in the trinity and they believe in the Bible, doesn’t that tell you something?

Exoflare: And if you say so, it must be true… right?
**

Jermin Savory:** And because you might not believe, that means it must be false… right?

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

The secondary details are not that important-

Some can be reconciled.

If they were exactly the same, we accuse them of collaboration.

We have but two records of Hannibal crossing the Alps to attack the Romans. The secondary details are “incompatible and irreconcilable”, but no one says that it didn’t happen.

If the Apostles didn’t sign their name, it was for the better. “Hi, my name is Matthew and I am a disciple of Christ.” HEAD LOBBED OFF

By the way, I’m assuming you meant differences on discovering the missing body at the tomb. What were the differences in the Crucifixion itself if thats what you meant? Although the same principal holds true for both of them.

A quote from The Case for Christ

"'The core of the story is the same: Joseph of Arimathea takes the body of Jesus, puts it in a tomb, the tomb is visited by a small group of women followers of Jesus early on the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, and they find the tomb is empty. They see a vision of angels saying that Jesus is risen.

The careful historian, unlike the philosopher, doesn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. He says, ‘This suggests that there is a historical core to this story that is reliable and can be depended on, however conflicting the secondary details might be.’

So we can have great confidence in the core that’s common to the naratives and that would be agreed upon by the majority of New Testament scholars today, even if there were some differences concerning the names of the women, the exact time of the morning, the number of angels, and so forth. Those kinds of secondary discrepancies wouldn’t bother a historian.’

Even the usually skeptical historian Michael grant, a fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, and professor at Edinburgh University, concedes in his book Jesus: An Historian’s Review of the Gospels, “True, the discovery of the empty tomb is differently described by the various gospels, but if we apply the same sort of criteria that we would apply to any other ancient literary sources, then the evidence is firm and plausible enough to necessitate the conclusion that the tomb was, indded, found empty.”

I can give you the man who is being interviewed’s name and credentials, if you wish.

I would personally trust the four (+?) sources saying Jesus was crucified over the one that says he wasn’t.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

FuzzyBunny116:

We have but two records of Hannibal crossing the Alps to attack the Romans. The secondary details are “incompatible and irreconcilable”, but no one says that it didn’t happen.

This is off-topic, but I know that Polybius wrote one account (a great read!). Who was it that wrote the second?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

**In the name of Allah

Fuzzbunny:**"'The core of the story is the same: Joseph of Arimathea takes the body of Jesus, puts it in a tomb, the tomb is visited by a small group of women followers of Jesus early on the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, and they find the tomb is empty. They see a vision of angels saying that Jesus is risen.

**Jermin Savory: **do you notice instead of resurrect, the word there is rise? rise means to get up from a sleep or from being unconcious. When you rise you awake, when you resurrect you come back from the dead, in short, Jesus (P) was not resurrected. Before you say that he was resurrected you have to prove that he died, in order to prove that he died you have to have all of the gospels agree on it in unity. So before you assert that My mighty prophet (P) was killed you have to prove it to me, other wise you have no case.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

Since Jesus Died and resurrected, resurrected bodies are spiritualized, Luke 20:35-36 why would Jesus (pbuh) be afraid of the Jews if he was spiritualized? Meaning that he was not dead, only a fleshly body would be afraid of the Jews thus disguising himself as a Gardener-Carpenter to hide from the Jews. If the Jews see that he didn’t really die, they would try again, thats why Jesus (pbuh) remained disguised and forever hiding.