Islam and the Crucifixion

[hlgomez]

You never know whether or not that you have enough faith. In the end, you don’t get into heaven with prayers, fasting, charity, good works etc. we get there through the mercy of God. we do the things above simply because these are acts of worship that is loved by God and because we love God so much we try to love what He loves and hate what He hates. and God loves us for obeying his commands and by living our lives the way He ordained.
wa salam

Fatuma,

We are not saved by our works: fasting, prayers, charity, etc. We cannot do all these things without God’s grace in the first place. But even if we do good things, that’s not a guarantee that we are saved. For no one is saved by his own works, otherwise one can boast before God that he is saved thru his works.

Rather, it is by grace that we are saved, thru faith. And this is not the work of men, but God’s, so no one may boast. God loves us even if yet we are sinners. He first loved us, not us who loved him first, as Sacred Scripture says. For all have fall short of the glory of God. Everyone has offended him and there is no exemptions.

If then you boast of your works, why are you still in bondage to sin? Why do you constantly offends God?

Come to him who is the source of Living Waters. Jesus said; “Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened and I will refresh you. For I am meek and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”

Pio

 

[fatuma]

Umh hello, that’s what I said. I said:

“In the end, you don’t get into heaven with prayers, fasting, charity, good works etc. we get there through the mercy of God.”

wa salam

 

[iwonder]

One of the most profound realities of crucifixion as a form of capital punishment is that it was designed to be, not only hideously painful, but from which there was no escape

except death. I do not believe anyone ever survived a crucifixion. And Jesus definately did not since he was truly human and therefore died a truly human death. It would seem that a religion such as Islam would have to deny the death of Jesus on the Cross as the God of Islam has not ever taken human form. Therefore the Incarnation would be absolutely incomprehensible under Islam as well as the Crucifixion. And unless one accepts the Incarnation and Crucifixion as realities, the Resurrection is nothing more than foolishness. This is how I would understand the conflict between Islam and Christianity.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

To Manx, very sincere Question, May Allah lead you to more guidance.
**
Surah Al-Anam**
"Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation). "

				 	**AL-MUMENOON**

“Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation”
**
Surah AL-QASAS**
“But any that (in this life) had repented, believed, and worked righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve salvation.”

					**Surah AL-BUROOJ**

"For those who believe and do righteous deeds, will be Gardens; beneath which rivers flow: That is the great Salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires), "

 

[fatuma]

RyanL
One of the biggest sins in Islam, right up there with associating partners with God, idol worship, blasphemy, murder, ingratitude towards your parents is suicide. There is no forgiveness for committing suicide in Islam because you are basically declaring that God is powerless. Every muslim knows this, even the suicide boomers. The reason why they commit these acts is because the are messed up. You have to be messed up to blow not only yourself up but innocent people. Their environment messes them up, their leaders who are power hunger mess them up, having injustices done to them and their family day in and day out and no body doing anything to help messes them up.
In Islam we know that certain deaths will get you an ‘automatic’ death will get you into heaven. These are; dying in child birth, dying to defend your home, family, property, life or all of those of somebody else, drowning, dying of any illness of the stomach, to name a few.

Ps You know that you are being saved because you know that God has infinite mercy. God did not create man for hell, He created man for heaven.
Here is a link explaining this:
whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3698&PN=1

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

**
RyanL:** Also, I ran across this on another site:
Quote:
After the death of his grandfather, his uncle Abu Talib then assumed responsibility for raising Muhammad. Abu Talib was a businessman involved in trade so it is likely that Muhammad went with him on business trips and encountered both Jews, 280 miles to the north in Madina, and Christians also to the north and to the south in Nejran. History tells us that when he was 12 he accompanied his uncle on a trading caravan to Syria.

Is this true? Wouldn’t this lend credibility to the argument that Muhammad wrote down what he had learned from Jews or Christians? I ask because I cannot seem to find a good history of his life - the closest I could find was something someone wrote well over one hundred years after Muhammad’s death…
**

Jermin Savory:** No, that wouldn’t lend credibility to such an argument. The Prophet Muhummad (p) had made only three trips outside Makkah before his Prophethood. Between the age of 9 to 12, he accompanied his uncle Abu-Talib as you’ve stated, on a business trip to Syria. The Qur’an couldn’t have resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews. As Most scholars of islam would say “it is highly imaginary to assume that the Qur’an resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews on business trips outside Arabia.”
**
Al-Qur’an 16:103**

“We know indeed that they say, ‘It is a man that teaches him,’ The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.”

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

**
RyanL:** I now invite you to show me that Mary is not the actual daughter of 'Imram according to the Qur’an, and that Aaron is not her actual brother according to the Qur’an.

**
Jermin Savory: **My aim is not to reconstruct the Qur’an as you are trying to do, I’ve given you my answer. RyanL, A quote “What do you call a person who has two fathers? The explanation of the phrase that Jesus (p) was the son of David (pbuh), is that Jesus (pbuh) was a descendant of David (pbuh). ‘Son’, here means a descendant.” Gospel of Luke Chapter 3, verse 23

“And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, …”’

As you can see from the above, son means desendents.

 

[JP2Admirer]

I would say that saying Christ didn’t actually die on the cross is just a rehashing of the Gnostic heresy. The fact is, as I think someone already enumerated, that Roman guards were under punishment by death if the prisoners in their charge who were up for capital punishment didn’t die.

So, for the Islamic idea that Christ faked His crucifixion to be true, one would have to believe that the Roman guards were not afraid of their own death, and were willing to die for Christ. Secondly, why would Christ fake it? He said that was what He came to do, and when Peter confronts Him and says that he would not allow anyone to harm Christ, Christ rebukes Him. Christ says something along the lines of, “get away from me you satan for you are thinking in human terms”

It just doesn’t coexist well with His whole ministry. Thirdly, what have Muslims to say about Him being up, walking around, with holes in His hands three days later? The man was scourged, and hung on a cross. Medically speaking, if he was taken off the Cross before He died, He would have been in no condition to be walking around.

Fourthly, although Pilate was reluctant to have Him crucified, do you think he was willing to have insurrection on his hands to save Jesus? If he didn’t kill him, the Jews surely would’ve revolted. As you may know, Pilate was known as a brutal man, and word got back to Caesar about his violence, so Caesar had him on a short leash. Another revolt, and Pilate’s life would be on the line, as he had already been warned. Obviously the Jews, priests, and scholars were familiar with what Christ looked like, and they mocked Him from the foot of the cross. Do you think they would’ve been so easily fooled by an imposter? Surely they would have known what Christ looked like, and they wouldn’t have been satisfied with killing an imposter. Heck, they released Barabas, a known criminal, rather than the innocent Christ.

This is just the Gnostic heresy reworked. The trouble is it doesn’t fit base human motivations very well, and it is historically ignorant, if you ask me.

 

[Faith101]

RyanL:

Fatuma,

Thank you for your frank and honest answers! You are a credit to your people, and a light to the proud!

If I’m not mistaking what you are saying, you don’t know if Allah has forgiven you. You don’t know if Allah is pleased with you or even loves you (as He doesn’t love me, allegedly, as I do not accept Muhammad as His prophet), because you don’t know if you have “saving faith”…correct?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Hey Ryan

SO much misunderstanding about our faith. Can i ask you…where do you get most of your knowledge about Islam?

Allah tells us in the Quran the people who He loves…not by name but by character…for example (ALL of these are straight from the Quran) Allah loves …

those who turn to Him constantly
those who do good
those who are firm and steadfast
those who put their trust (in Him
those who are patient
those who act justly

this is a short list, there is much more.

Also Allah is CLEAR that he does not love those who reject the truth when they see it and know it. These people are clearly told where they will end up if they dont repent.

The question remains, however; is there any way you can ever know you have enough faith for Allah to forgive you? Could you be damned right now and not know it, because you don’t have enough faith?

Glory be to God! He is the MOST Merciful …how do i know? B/c he repeatedly tells me so! lets take a look

"… whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve. (2:112)

As for) those who spend their property by night and by day, secretly and openly, they shall have their reward from their Lord and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Chapter #2, Verse #274)

Surely they who believe and do good deeds and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate they shall have their reward from their Lord, and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Chapter #2, Verse #277

And We send not messengers but as announcers of good news and givers of warning, then whoever believes and acts aright, they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Chapter #6, Verse #48)
**
Behold! are these not the men whom you swore that Allah with His Mercy would never bless? Enter ye the Garden: no fear shall be on you, nor shall ye grieve. (7:49)**

There are toooo many. I know that the media is not too fond of Muslims…and that most people get their Islam101 from there.
Islam is not what you have stated, please have another look, if only for understanding sake

 

[exoflare]

Somebody asked how a Muslim can be sure of their salvation. I’m pretty sure once they die they believe their good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on a scale somehow. If the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds, they go to heaven. What exactly counts as “good deeds” and “bad deeds” I guess is up for debate. I just pity someone who did evil all their life and repented at an old age!

(And protestants think WE believe in works-based salvation. )

 

[manx]

In the name of Allah

To Manx, very sincere Question, May Allah lead you to more guidance.
**
Surah Al-Anam**
"Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation). "

				 	**AL-MUMENOON**

“Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation”
**
Surah AL-QASAS**
“But any that (in this life) had repented, believed, and worked righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve salvation.”

					**Surah AL-BUROOJ**

"For those who believe and do righteous deeds, will be Gardens; beneath which rivers flow: That is the great Salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires), "

Hi Jermin,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.What do you mean by “believe” in those verses? Is it enough that I believe in God without submitting to certain rituals or following a prophet like Muhammed (may Allah give him peace)? I am quite happy being a Christian although I am very fond of comparing my beliefs to yours.

Thanks again and God Bless.

manx

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

SO much misunderstanding about our faith. Can i ask you…where do you get most of your knowledge about Islam?
…
There are toooo many. I know that the media is not too fond of Muslims…and that most people get their Islam101 from there.
Islam is not what you have stated, please have another look, if only for understanding sake

Faith101,

When I speak with Fatuma, I am not on the attack. Please understand that I am earnestly seeking Fatuma’s reply; I say that because you seem to think that I don’t want to understand and that I am happy about what misinformation I possess. Both of these are not true. When Jermin speaks, he twists the Bible and disrespects my faith on purpose, and with a malicious intent. I respond to him with the arguments I know (some of which may be false…I welcome reasonable corrections). I have yet to see a reasonable argument from Jermin that made coherent sense (I think he is probably a teenager), so I have now started speaking with Fatuma (and you). With regards to Muslim salvation, what I have been given on this thread is all I know about salvation in Islam (with the apparently incorrect exception of suicide bombers listed earlier). Let me show you why I am confused:

To truely believe in God is to believe in His mercy to forgive. If you believe that you have commited a sin so great that God will not forgive you, then you do not truely believe in God and His infinite power.

This seems to say that you need to “truly believe” in order for God to forgive you. If you don’t “truly believe in God”, He doesn’t love you and won’t forgive you. My questions were “how can you know if you truly believe?” and “Could you be fooling yourself into thinking that you ‘truly believed’ and actually be damned?”

You never know whether or not that you have enough faith.

I asked if works were what get you into heaven, and I was told this:

In the end, you don’t get into heaven with prayers, fasting, charity, good works etc. we get there through the mercy of God. we do the things above simply because these are acts of worship that is loved by God and because we love God so much we try to love what He loves and hate what He hates. and God loves us for obeying his commands and by living our lives the way He ordained.

This says that works don’t get you into heaven, it’s by the mercy of God. Works are a by-product of a “saving faith”. Then you come and say this:

Allah loves …

those who turn to Him constantly
those who do good
those who are firm and steadfast
those who put their trust (in Him
those who are patient
those who act justly

All of these appear to say that Allah loves those who have faith in Him, with the possible exception of the last item (which could be a work). Again I ask, what is “saving faith”? Fatuma told me that we could “never know” if our faith is good enough for Allah to forgive you. It would seem from the responses to be more an issue of faith. But then you go and post 5 Surahs of “things to do for Allah so that He loves you”, and I’m confused again. I have also read Surahs which seem to say exactly what Exoflare has said.

Which is it? Could you please explain what Muslims believe they need to do to go to heaven?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Booklover]

fatuma:

You never know whether or not that you have enough faith. In the end, you don’t get into heaven with prayers, fasting, charity, good works etc. we get there through the mercy of God. we do the things above simply because these are acts of worship that is loved by God and because we love God so much we try to love what He loves and hate what He hates. and God loves us for obeying his commands and by living our lives the way He ordained.
wa salam

Fatuma, when you say that you try to hate what God hates, what exactly does that mean?

You see, this is one of the problems that I have with Islam. There are too many exhortations of hatred and violence in your Qur’an towards anyone who is not Muslim.

We as Christians believe that God loves everyone, whether they are Christian or not. The only thing that God hates is sin, but even in spite of great sins, God still loves the sinner and is always ready to forgive him if he truly repents.

I would truly like to hear your explanation of this.

 

[Faith101]

Booklover:

Fatuma, when you say that you try to hate what God hates, what exactly does that mean?

You see, this is one of the problems that I have with Islam. There are too many exhortations of hatred and violence in your Qur’an towards anyone who is not Muslim.

We as Christians believe that God loves everyone, whether they are Christian or not. The only thing that God hates is sin, but even in spite of great sins, God still loves the sinner and is always ready to forgive him if he truly repents.

I would truly like to hear your explanation of this.

Do the sinners (who God loves) go to hell if they dont repent?

What i am saying is it is only a hypocrite that says “i love you” and than turns around and harms you. God is not a hypocrite

 

[Faith101]

RyanL:

Faith101,

When I speak with Fatuma, I am not on the attack. Please understand that I am earnestly seeking Fatuma’s reply; I say that because you seem to think that I don’t want to understand and that I am happy about what misinformation I possess. Both of these are not true. When Jermin speaks, he twists the Bible and disrespects my faith on purpose, and with a malicious intent. I respond to him with the arguments I know (some of which may be false…I welcome reasonable corrections). I have yet to see a reasonable argument from Jermin that made coherent sense (I think he is probably a teenager), so I have now started speaking with Fatuma (and you). With regards to Muslim salvation, what I have been given on this thread is all I know about salvation in Islam (with the apparently incorrect exception of suicide bombers listed earlier). Let me show you why I am confused:

This seems to say that you need to “truly believe” in order for God to forgive you. If you don’t “truly believe in God”, He doesn’t love you and won’t forgive you. My questions were “how can you know if you truly believe?” and “Could you be fooling yourself into thinking that you ‘truly believed’ and actually be damned?”

I asked if works were what get you into heaven, and I was told this:

This says that works don’t get you into heaven, it’s by the mercy of God. Works are a by-product of a “saving faith”. Then you come and say this:

All of these appear to say that Allah loves those who have faith in Him, with the possible exception of the last item (which could be a work). Again I ask, what is “saving faith”? Fatuma told me that we could “never know” if our faith is good enough for Allah to forgive you. It would seem from the responses to be more an issue of faith. But then you go and post 5 Surahs of “things to do for Allah so that He loves you”, and I’m confused again. I have also read Surahs which seem to say exactly what Exoflare has said.

Which is it? Could you please explain what Muslims believe they need to do to go to heaven?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Peace Ryan

Ok, i understand where you are coming from. The explanations go hand in hand, i will, God willing, post something concerning this issue of getting into paradise soon (i dont have time right now)

my questions still stands…where do you get most of your knowledge about Islam?

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

my questions still stands…where do you get most of your knowledge about Islam?

Faith101,

I am glad we see eye to eye.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:9).

As for where I get my knowledge about Islam:
Some of what I know I have received by speaking to an Imam at the Grand Mosque in Mina Sulman, Bahrain.
Some of what I know I have learned from Muslims on this board and whyislam.com.
Some of what I know I have learned through reading the Qur’an.
Some of what I know I have learned through Christian books on Islam.
Some of what I know is what I have learned through a Catholic who is fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, and English (among others), who has celebrated many Mirionite Masses (in Arabic) and has spent a great deal of time in the Middle East. He has dialogged with more Muslims than I know, and is very respected as a Catholic scholar.
Some of what I know I have learned through the American Media, whose motives I question on all religious reporting.
Some of what I know is not really known at all, but merely speculated at using reason and logic.

Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to speak at length with those who I have most to learn from (the Imam and the Catholic). Even with the exposure to Islam that I have had, I still have questions about it and I have much to learn. I in no ways claim expertise - indeed, I claim only a basic understanding of my own faith. Thankfully for me, there is a sure and faithful guide to answer any and all of the questions I have about the Catholic faith to a nearly inexhaustable depth - the Church.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah
**
Manx**: Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.What do you mean by “believe” in those verses? Is it enough that I believe in God without submitting to certain rituals or following a prophet like Muhammed (may Allah give him peace)? I am quite happy being a Christian although I am very fond of comparing my beliefs to yours.
**
Jermin Savory**: NO offense to anyone but you have got to be the most humble Christian i’ve met so far on this forum. But if you are truly willing to compare our beliefs in a friendly manner I would love to. And if you are willing to do it in the form of a smooth discussion without debate, I’d love to. For debating doesn’t lead to much understanding, discussing is more fruitful in a subject as this.

My email address is

islamforever@comcast.net

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Do the sinners (who God loves) go to hell if they dont repent?

What i am saying is it is only a hypocrite that says “i love you” and than turns around and harms you. God is not a hypocrite]

While we cannot with certainty say who is in hell or not, if a person does not repent of his “serious” sins, he will not go to heaven. It’s not God’s will that anyone be condemned, we by our actions can condemn ourselves!

When we commit a serious “mortal” sin like adultery, murder, fornication and so on, we no longer have God’s grace in our souls. It’s like taking an electric appliance and unplugging it, without electricity it will not work. When we commit a mortal sin, we lose God’s friendship but we can always go to Him for forgiveness if we’re truly repentant. That’s why we Catholics have the sacrament of reconciliation, where we go and onfess our sins and they are forgiven and we have God’s grace again! It’s a wonderful feeling when the priest tells us our sins are forgiven!

I’m not the best at explaining things but hope this helps!

Vickie

 

[RyanL]

Faith101:

Do the sinners (who God loves) go to hell if they dont repent?

What i am saying is it is only a hypocrite that says “i love you” and than turns around and harms you. God is not a hypocrite

Faith101,

This is a good question, and quite a lot of ink has been spilled answering it. If I may, I will present you with a pared-down version of the theology. You lose a lot when you abbreviate topics like this, but I think it would help you to see.
Your Syllogism
Major postulate:
God loves everyone
Minor postulate:
God condemns some to hell
Conclusion:
God is a hypocrite for hurting people He loves.

This is incorrect logic. In order to show how this is incorrect we first need to know more about us and why we were created. We were created to know, love, and serve God. We were also created with Free Will, which He gave to us. It is His desire to see us all chose Him, which we are all free to either do or not do. He could **make **us serve and love Him, but that would violate Free Will (which He established). God does not win us by force, but by love - freely offered and freely given. Forced love is akin to spiritual rape, as you are forced to love God against your wishes. We do not believe God does that. We believe that God respects our wishes, and will respect the choices we make. If we choose to reject God, when the Judgement comes we will receive our wish. If we disown God, He will disown us. How do we choose to reject God? Through sin. Some sins are more serious than others, but any sin at all would be worthy of an outright rejection of us by God. That is why repentance is so important, and why the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is so essential.

Does the person who does not receive God through the Church still have the possibility of salvation? Well…mostly yes, but some no. If, through no fault of their own, they never learn of the Christ and His sacrifice for us, we believe God will not judge them severely. If they “love” God, but sin against Him constantly and do not repent, they do not truly love God - indeed, they spit in His face with sin and are not sorry for it. How could that be love? If they repent, God is ever loving and will forgive them.

Syllogism Revisited:
**Major Premise:
**God loves everyone
**Minor Premise:
**God condemns some to hell
Conclusion:
God respects the choices we make, and loves us enough to let us go if that is our wish. He will not keep us against our will.

Make more sense?
Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[The_Eurasian]

fatuma:

** how could 3 be in 1 **

I would like an answer that comes from your heart( use simple terms, I’m not that complex ).

wa salam

As human beings, we cannot even understand INFINITY. Yet some people think their little minds can understand this Mystery called GOD.
But look at our own selves.

You ask “how could 3 be in 1”? Well, Fatuma has 2 brains, namely the (1) LEFT brain and (2) RIGHT brain. But how can that be??? There is only 1 Fatuma!!!

Also, like all human beings, Fatuma has 46 chromosomes which are actually 23 PAIRS of chromosomes. Yes, 23 chromosomes came from the father of Fatuma and 23 chromosomes came from the mother of Fatuma. And inside Fatuma are zillions and zillions of cells each with 23 pairs of chromosomes.

Huh??? 23 chromosomes from Fatuma’s father married, combined with 23 pairs of chromosomes from Fatuma’s mother? How can that be??? Are there 23 Fatumas??? Well if you are a human being, they say that you will have 23 pairs of chromosomes. You are a human being. Then you must have these 23 pairs of chromosomes inside you.