Islam and the Trinity

[zz912]

Hello,

I would say that this is a common error that Many Christians fall into and propagate between each other as a fact. While they have not read the Quran themselves.

Let me make it more clear… the Quran doesn’t define the trinity… at all… the Quran mentions what should not be worshiped . The verse that confuses people is below

quran.com/5/116

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

Now that verse doesn’t include any trinity… but it says that Jesus and Mary could have been regarded as deities as well as God . In Islam … the definition of a deity or a god is broader. If you lift your hands in the air and say ‘’ o Mary bless me with food and shelter’’ then you are taking her as a deity or as a God . This has nothing to do with being a part of a trinity or not . In Islam there is one God who is worthy of supplication, prayer or worship… the rest are humans … including Mary and Jesus.

The Quran is not concerned with defining trinity… it is concerned with showing muslims what is wrong .

quran.com/4/171

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Now you see from the previous verse… There is no definition of the trinity either… basically God is saying…’’ Don’t say Three’’ He is saying there is nothing called the trinity… There is one God and the rest are creatures … including the holy spirit and Jesus, Mary etc…

I have brought you the concerned verses from the Quran itself… you can se there is no definition of the trinity there . In fact… the word trinity is not mentioned…

I hope that would just stop this popular myth.

Best regards,

So who is makes up the “Three”? The only ones mentioned in the Quran are God, Jesus and Mary. In another post you mentioned that any action such as asking for intercessory prayer is deifying someone. So then that would mean that every Christian saint is being “deified” in this definition. So why define it as “Three”? From the verses you presented, which were the ones the article detailed, it seems like the most obvious understanding is that the “Three” is composed of God, Jesus and Mary.

 

[zz912]

to copy out of the Catholic Catechism that superceded all that is said here… and to that point out this to be an example of the Great War of today on Religion, that Catholics find themselve not only in, but fighting the war on Religion themseves, a Mortal sin…

the second vatican council spoke on the Moslems.

they follow Abraham, adore the one and Mercyful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
though they do not knowlege Jesus as God, it does rever Him as Prophet, and honors His virgin mohter.

Your obligation as a Catholic is, “forget the past (forgive others of their tresspasses that we might be forgiven for ours) and strive sincerely for mutual understanding , and, on behalf of all mankind, make common cause of safeguarding social justce, moral values, peace, and freedom”…
From the Second Vatican councils.
So from this point forward, in being educated to what the Catholic Church calls us to, WE can never again hold a bigotry against the Islamic faith, for that would be a mortal sin…

ignorance of religion does not excuss us from sin, but to teach others to be defiant to the Catholic faith, is a mortal sin, and we are not excussed from that in any way shape or form. its an unforgiveable sin to war on religion, that we cannot do, nor teach others to do…

Jesus never called on his followers to war on religion, that is a given.

So which are you accusing me of? Mortal sin, bigotry, warring on religion, or all three? I guess asking a polite and respectful question (which I did) is grounds for damnation today…

 

[meedo]

So who is makes up the “Three”? The only ones mentioned in the Quran are God, Jesus and Mary. In another post you mentioned that any action such as asking for intercessory prayer is deifying someone. So then that would mean that every Christian saint is being “deified” in this definition. So why define it as “Three”? From the verses you presented, which were the ones the article detailed, it seems like the most obvious understanding is that the “Three” is composed of God, Jesus and Mary.

My friend,

The Quran says three because this is what Christians believe. The Quran doesn’t go and define those three and frankly it doesn’t care to define it. Nor you will find it defined any where in the Quran. The Quran is not even concerned with which sect believed what at the time and it is not intended as to map these sects out nor their beliefs.

The Quran is not obsessed about Trinity… nor does it think that this is the form it wants to admonish… it equally admonishes paganism , angel worship etc etc … so trinity, worshipping jesus , or even in the case of worshipping Mary would all be equally admonished . So saying that the Quran defined the trinity as such and then stating that the trinity definition is not correct… is like putting words that doesn’t exist in the first place.

The Quran is trying to refute anything that has to do with a trinity. You see in the verses below , it gives further examples of what some people believed at the time. However, it never says ‘’ and this is what christian believe ‘’ or anything of the sort . It is just part of what the Quran says is wrong

quran.com/5/72

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, “O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord.” Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

quran.com/5/73

Sahih International
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

 

[Augustine3]

Now that verse doesn’t include any trinity… but it says that Jesus and Mary could have been regarded as deities as well as God

They are surely disbelievers who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no God but the One God. And if they do not desist from what they say, a grievous punishment shall surely befall those of them that disbelieve. – Quran 5:73

Here’s an authentic Tafsir by Ibn Kathir:

*Surely, they have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the third of three.”
Mujahid and several others said that;
this Ayah was revealed about the Christians in particular.
As-Suddi and others said that;
this Ayah was revealed about taking `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. *

Source: quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/005%20Ma’idah.htm#الْيَوْمَ

 

[meedo]

They are surely disbelievers who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no God but the One God. And if they do not desist from what they say, a grievous punishment shall surely befall those of them that disbelieve. – Quran 5:73

Here’s an authentic Tafsir by Ibn Kathir:

Surely, they have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the third of three.”
Mujahid and several others said that;
this Ayah was revealed about the Christians in particular.
As-Suddi and others said that;
this Ayah was revealed about taking `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity.

Source: quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/005%20Ma’idah.htm#الْيَوْمَ

My friend, Ibn Kathir is a Tafsir… meaning an opinion on an interpretation … There are hundreds of opinions for Muslim scholars on how a verse is interpreted. The Quran itself doesn’t have This. And as i said before… the Quran is not concerned with mapping out the beliefs of the Christians.

 

[Augustine3]

My friend, Ibn Kathir is a Tafsir… meaning an opinion on an interpretation … There are hundreds of opinions for Muslim scholars on how a verse is interpreted. The Quran itself doesn’t have This. And as i said before… the Quran is not concerned with mapping out the beliefs of the Christians.

This is why I’m a Catholic; we have an authoritative body that infallibly defines and teaches, thus avoiding differences of opinions and potential confusion.

God bless,

 

[Augustine3]

My friend, Ibn Kathir is a Tafsir… meaning an opinion on an interpretation … There are hundreds of opinions for Muslim scholars on how a verse is interpreted. The Quran itself doesn’t have This. And as i said before… the Quran is not concerned with mapping out the beliefs of the Christians.

I don’t know about you but most Muslims take Ibn Kathir’s tafsir seriously rather than brush it aside as a mere opinion…

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The Quran does define what it says is an error about God–but it uses a straw man example, which is hardly the mark of an infallible being or inspired messenger.

Many Muslims through history and today say we Christians are in error because of these verses–they read it literaly, at face value, and through "cognitive dissonance’ absolutley refuse to take into account what the Trinity doctrine actualy states.

To rationalize around the clear intent of defintion of error is admirable in one sense, but it at heart conflicts with the far more concistent historical record of Islamic interpretation.

 

[MartinJordan]

• People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

This looks very much like a mish mash (little bit of this and a little bit of that) of what was perceived of what Christians of the day may have misinterpreted or explained to Muslims of this era.

Worst still is calling Christians people of scripture " alone". It is clear the writer fails or sadly fails what was defined by the Church and taught by the Church.

I’d also like point out where is the teaching by the Church to thank Mary for food etc? This is but a heavy misrepresentation of what some people think the Church teaches like what many of our separated brethren believe when they say we worship Mary.

I can understand though it may be hard to understand the One God Catholics believe. Certainly there is no “partnership of three” t would do well to know the Church fathers writing for better understanding. By studying the early Church by people who lived closer to time of Jesus and also from those who came before them.

With all due respect I think if one doesn’t research history especially the persecution of Christians in particular after Jesus ascended into Heaven , “scripture alone” will not suffice. The teachings of the nascent Church would be a required supplement for more clarity.

 

[meedo]

I don’t know about you but most Muslims take Ibn Kathir’s tafsir seriously rather than brush it aside as a mere opinion…

Ofcourse Ibn Kathir is a good Tafsir and is authoritative… but it is not taken as an infallible document. And Many opinions in it are actually regarded as weak … that doesn’t discount it as an important document of Islamic literature.

 

[Augustine3]

Ofcourse Ibn Kathir is a good Tafsir and is authoritative… but it is not taken as an infallible document. And Many opinions in it are actually regarded as weak … that doesn’t discount it as an important document of Islamic literature.

Then what’s to hold back his tafsir is correct and yours is wrong?

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I have come across these same verses when reading the Quran, and Meedo is correct the Quran does not make any attempt to disprove the trinity they way that uniterian sects do. However from my reading and understanding the Quran does not present or represent Jesus nor understand Jesus in the same way that orthodox christians do.
The Quran understands Jesus to be a Prophet and a completly distinct entity to God in the same way that moses was a completly seperate and distinct entity to God and from this understanding the Quran rightly says it is wrong to worship and give Jesus the praise that belongs to God alone.
However this is not the orthodox christian understanding of who Jesus is, and it is not a clear understanding of what the New Testament scriptures say jesus is. When one understands correctly the New Testament and the identifacation of Jesus within it. Then one would realise that praise and worship of Jesus and praise and worship of the one true God are one and the same.

 

[Azygos]

• Surah 5:73-75, “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three…”

Jesus Christ:

To the Muslim, Jesus Christ is merely one of the many prophets of Allah (Sura: 4:171; 5:74). According to Islam, the prophet Muhammad supersedes Jesus Christ. Islam says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God or part of any Trinity (Surah 5:17; 5:116; 19:35). We are told by Islam that Jesus was the Messiah (Surah 3:45; 4:157; 171), but nothing but a slave on whom God showed favor (Surah 43:59); yet elsewhere in the Qur’an we are told the Messiah is not a slave (Surah 4:172). The Qur’an tells us that Jesus Christ did not atone for anyone’s sins, although he was himself sinless (Surah 3:46) and is one of those who are near to God (Surah 3:45). Positively, the Qur’an says that Jesus Christ performed miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110) and was the Messiah. The Qur’an says Jesus did not die on a cross. Various Muslim traditions say that Jesus either miraculously substituted Judas Iscariot for himself on the cross, or that God miraculously delivered Him from the hands of the Romans and Jews before He could be crucified. Most Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was taken bodily into heaven without having died (Surah 4:157). However, Surah 19:33 says Jesus died and would be resurrected. Muhammad on the other hand died in his wife Aisha’s home, not long after he was poisoned by a slave girl. Muhammad’s body was lowered into a hole in Medina, and his dead body was covered by dirt and brickwork.

It is interesting to compare Jesus and Muhammad according to the Qur’an. Jesus did miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110), but Muhammad did not (Surah 13:8: “thou art a warner [of coming divine judgment] only”; also 6:37; 6:109; 17:59 and 17:90-93).

Jesus was sinless (Surah 3:46), but Muhammad sinned and needed forgiveness (Surah 40:55: “Ask forgiveness of thy sin”; 42:5: “Ask forgiveness for those on the Earth”; 47:19: “Ask forgiveness for thy sin” ; 48:2: “that Allah may forgive thee of thy sin”).

Jesus was called “the Messiah” by Allah in the Qur’an. And Jesus was even born of a virgin (Surah 3:45-57)! Yet Muhammad who had 12 wives, 2 concubines, and participated in many attacks on innocent caravans and villages, and insisted on 20% of all the booty from these raids – is supposed to be the greatest of the prophets.

Both Muslim holy books (Qur’an/Koran and Hadith) contain commands for Muslims to subjugate the world, militarily. Muhammad commanded Muslims to spread Islam through Offensive Jihad; or conquest of non-Muslim lands. Muslims are also commanded to take back any land that was formerly Muslim, such as Israel.

Radical Muslims believe that they are Mujahideen, or “holy warriors of Allah”. Their goal, like Islam’s goal is to establish the entire world as a pure Islamic state (a Khalifah), which conforms to Islamic laws.

An example of what Muslim children are taught in Muslim schools is this statement, found in a Jordanian/Palestinian school book in 1998:

“This religion (Islam) will destroy all other religions through the Islamic Jihad fighters”

bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm

 

[meedo]

Then what’s to hold back his tafsir is correct and yours is wrong?

Nothing holds it back , except that it is just an opinion of a Muslim scholar on Christianity. What i am trying to say is that the Quran in itself does not define the trinity. Nor does it state who are the three parts of the trinity. What it does… it just keeps negating every possible way of Christian doctrine…

There seem to be an interpretation that one of the forms of the trinity could include Mary. very possible that this interpretation could be wrong. Ibn Katheer and others has been wrong in Many places and strayed from what other Muslim scholars consider the consensus views .

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Nothing holds it back , except that it is just an opinion of a Muslim scholar on Christianity. What i am trying to say is that the Quran in itself does not define the trinity. Nor does it state who are the three parts of the trinity. What it does… it just keeps negating every possible way of Christian doctrine…

There seem to be an interpretation that one of the forms of the trinity could include Mary. very possible that this interpretation could be wrong. Ibn Katheer and others has been wrong in Many places and strayed from what other Muslim scholars consider the consensus views .

You can’t negate a doctrine you do not understand, and theres no reason to suppose (by your own admission) the quran had any knowledge of trinity. Only vague notions crossed the author. And there was no common form of the trinity ever involving Mary, whatever can be said about the COllyridians is that they probably didnt exist at that time and we don’t know enough about their theology to say they had mary as having the same substance as God the father, existing eternally along with the father and the son and the spirit, in which case it would no longer be a trinity.

There was an Orthodoxy that existed back then that composed most of the empire, east and west, that was NIcene/Constantinople Christianity

 

[Trebor135]

Ibn Katheer and others has been wrong in Many places and strayed from what other Muslim scholars consider the consensus views .

It seems here that all we have is a bunch of conflicting opinions. How can anyone figure out what the Qur’an is really saying and what true Islam is in the twenty-first century except by flailing about blindly in the dark?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Of interest to this thread might be one I started back in 2010, almost three years ago to the day, entitled “For Muslims: Mohammad and the Trinity,” in which I began this discussion, and where myself and others engaged with Muslims on the topic. It can be found here. It’s closed now, but I think a reading of the interaction between the two sides will be edifying for people on this forum.

 

[meedo]

You can’t negate a doctrine you do not understand, and theres no reason to suppose (by your own admission) the quran had any knowledge of trinity. Only vague notions crossed the author. And there was no common form of the trinity ever involving Mary, whatever can be said about the COllyridians is that they probably didnt exist at that time and we don’t know enough about their theology to say they had mary as having the same substance as God the father, existing eternally along with the father and the son and the spirit, in which case it would no longer be a trinity.

There was an Orthodoxy that existed back then that composed most of the empire, east and west, that was NIcene/Constantinople Christianity

The Quran doesn’t need any knowledge about the trinity except what is obvious to the layman. That there is a doctrine called the trinity. And that the Trinity is an essence of God for some people in this world . You dont need to understand more than this to actually negate it. What the Quran is saying is basically simple… this trinity doesn’t exist. This is what the Quran says. It is simply scripture against scripture. People here are trying to say that the Quran defines the trinity . I say the Quran does no such thing. Cause it doesn’t matter … The Quran battled all forms of associating other beings with God … the trinity doctrine is associating Jesus with God as part of God or an image of God or however christians understand it.

 

[meedo]

It seems here that all we have is a bunch of conflicting opinions. How can anyone figure out what the Qur’an is really saying and what true Islam is in the twenty-first century except by flailing about blindly in the dark?

Consensus… the more consensus from scholarly councils the more reliable the opinion . There is no scholar of Islam that doesn’t have mistakes. There are tons of mistakes and off shoot opinions… . If you read the versus above… simply the translation… you will see no where God defining who are the godhead of the trinity.

 

[Love4All]

The Quran doesn’t need any knowledge about the trinity except what is obvious to the layman. That there is a doctrine called the trinity. And that the Trinity is an essence of God for some people in this world . You dont need to understand more than this to actually negate it. What the Quran is saying is basically simple… this trinity doesn’t exist. This is what the Quran says. It is simply scripture against scripture. People here are trying to say that the Quran defines the trinity . I say the Quran does no such thing. Cause it doesn’t matter … The Quran battled all forms of associating other beings with God … the trinity doctrine is associating Jesus with God as part of God or an image of God or however christians understand it.

meedo, how do you surmise that they understand it? Assume good faith, of course, and tell me, if you will, what it is that is your impression of what Christians actually believe about Jesus? I know that you believe He was born of a virgin, but who is his father?