Islam and the Trinity

[IgnatianPhilo]

The Quran doesn’t need any knowledge about the trinity except what is obvious to the layman. That there is a doctrine called the trinity. And that the Trinity is an essence of God for some people in this world . You dont need to understand more than this to actually negate it. What the Quran is saying is basically simple… this trinity doesn’t exist. This is what the Quran says. It is simply scripture against scripture. People here are trying to say that the Quran defines the trinity . I say the Quran does no such thing. Cause it doesn’t matter … The Quran battled all forms of associating other beings with God … the trinity doctrine is associating Jesus with God as part of God or an image of God or however christians understand it.

In order to effectively dismiss and argue against a doctrine, one should have an indepth knowledge of such a doctrine. General terms and mistakes will not convince anyone and it is reasonable to suggest an error on the author of the quran, given the implied belief Mary is a part of the trinity. As I said collyridians were not prominent and probably didnt exist, very small chance and we don’t know if they even had her as apart of their trinity.

Now the Quran can deny the number three all it likes, but thats not an effective argument, and in fact within history is quite novel. Who should the Christian trust? Well according to the quran the Christian should judge by their own gospel which certaintly contradicts the islamic claim.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Consensus… the more consensus from scholarly councils the more reliable the opinion . There is no scholar of Islam that doesn’t have mistakes. There are tons of mistakes and off shoot opinions… . If you read the versus above… simply the translation… you will see no where God defining who are the godhead of the trinity.

When it comes to the hadiths or quran, the only criteria the muslim uses is that anything that embarresses islam is false.

 

[Trebor135]

When it comes to the hadiths or quran, the only criteria the muslim uses is that anything that embarresses islam is false.

This is an interesting idea that merits being further explored.

If you or other posters have any other examples where Muslims conveniently discard whatever casts their religion in a bad light–historically, logically, morally–I’d be obliged to see them.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This is an interesting idea that merits being further explored.

If you or other posters have any other examples where Muslims conveniently discard whatever casts their religion in a bad light–historically, logically, morally–I’d be obliged to see them.

If X Hadith says a Negative thing about Muhammad or says something that embarreses islam. It is automatically without hesitation labeled false and corrupt and not authentic. This has been my experience with Muslims and that is the only criteria they employ in the science of hadith.

 

[Publisher]

There’s a key difference.

The argument isn’t being made that the Qur’an is disproven by its denial of the trinity. Rather, the OP is pointing out that Islam’s holy book does not accurately describe a fundamental Christian doctrine, which demonstrates that its authorship was not omniscient–and, therefore, not divine.

If I remember correctly, Muhammad was stating what he had been taught about the Trinity thru his interaction with various Christian sects at that time in Arabia…whatever these CHRISTIAN sects had taught was either misunderstood by the Prophet or was accurately denied by the Prophet IF one of these Christian sects actually taught who comprised the Trinity.

 

[meedo]

meedo, how do you surmise that they understand it? Assume good faith, of course, and tell me, if you will, what it is that is your impression of what Christians actually believe about Jesus? I know that you believe He was born of a virgin, but who is his father?

Hello Love4all,

As i understand, Christians themselves have differences in how they understand the trinity. Like the orthodox and Catholics. It has also been called a Mystery . So me trying to explain it , as a muslim, is not wise . I will just say what i hear , i hear it says that God is three entities, the father, the son , and the holy spirit. They are 3 entities but one God.

This is what i hear . Did i get it correct ?

my dear friend, Jesus has no father.

All the best

 

[meedo]

In order to effectively dismiss and argue against a doctrine, one should have an indepth knowledge of such a doctrine. General terms and mistakes will not convince anyone and it is reasonable to suggest an error on the author of the quran, given the implied belief Mary is a part of the trinity. As I said collyridians were not prominent and probably didnt exist, very small chance and we don’t know if they even had her as apart of their trinity.

Now the Quran can deny the number three all it likes, but thats not an effective argument, and in fact within history is quite novel. Who should the Christian trust? Well according to the quran the Christian should judge by their own gospel which certaintly contradicts the islamic claim.

Hello My friend,

In order to understand something… you must refer it to something in your mind that can relate . Something previous to this that you are trying to understand. You must se an evidence or an explanation. If i am stating that God is 7 people… or 8 or 3 or 2 or 1 this is not understanding… this is stating … now if you want to digest this matter of faith you relate it to something you know. The Quran states that God is not 3 . Now…we can argue about how the Christians understands 3 but it is not relevant here. The Quran also states that Mary or Jesus should not be a direction for acts of worship or intercession… does this mean the Quran defines these two are parts of the trinity ? No it doesn’t. Does it mean that some scholar can coem and says it is the trinity … sure … could it be that this scholar is mistaken yes he could. But the mistake is not there in the Quran.

When it comes to the hadiths or quran, the only criteria the muslim uses is that anything that embarresses islam is false.

I would think that people of all faiths could end up in such attitudes sometimes.

If X Hadith says a Negative thing about Muhammad or says something that embarreses islam. It is automatically without hesitation labeled false and corrupt and not authentic. This has been my experience with Muslims and that is the only criteria they employ in the science of hadith.

I would say that is not quite accurate , but ofcourse… you have your opinions

 

[Trebor135]

If X Hadith says a Negative thing about Muhammad or says something that embarreses islam. It is automatically without hesitation labeled false and corrupt and not authentic. This has been my experience with Muslims and that is the only criteria they employ in the science of hadith.

OK. But do you have any example Hadith from, say, Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim that don’t reflect well on Islam and, you believe, are denied by Muslims simply for that reason?

 

[Love4All]

Hello Love4all,

As i understand, Christians themselves have differences in how they understand the trinity. Like the orthodox and Catholics. It has also been called a Mystery . So me trying to explain it , as a muslim, is not wise . I will just say what i hear , i hear it says that God is three entities, the father, the son , and the holy spirit. They are 3 entities but one God.

This is what i hear . Did i get it correct ?

my dear friend, Jesus has no father.

All the best

I don’t think that’s completely correct, no. From what I understand, God is one entity only. I have heard it said that a Muslim can admit that Allah, and Allah’s Word, and Allah’s Spirit, are not three entities but only One. Does this sound like something you believe?

If Jesus had no father, then to whom did He refer continually as “my Father?”

Do you think He was lying, mistaken, or misquoted?

 

[meedo]

I don’t think that’s completely correct, no. From what I understand, God is one entity only. I have heard it said that a Muslim can admit that Allah, and Allah’s Word, and Allah’s Spirit, are not three entities but only One. Does this sound like something you believe?

If Jesus had no father, then to whom did He refer continually as “my Father?”

Do you think He was lying, mistaken, or misquoted?

Well ofcourse you know the trinity more than i do .

We can admit that Allah has a spirit and a word. There are no entities here or any trinity doctrine. its like me saying that i have a leg and a mouth… its at the end of the day … me.

I really don’t know about your last question because i don’t necessarily believe in the Christian bible so i don’t know if he called him the father… but this is not the topic of this thread as far as i remember You are welcome to open a new thread on this my friend

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Believe I read in CA Magazine that in Islam, the Quran tells people to not believe in the Trinity, and that the Trinity was made up of God, Jesus, and Mary.

If so, wouldn’t this prove the falsity of Islam? As Islam is based upon Mohammed receiving the revelation from God, but there could not be a factual error in a revelation from God. Not focused on the doctrine of the Trinity, but on the makeup of the Trinity. What I mean is that this fundamental misunderstanding shows ignorance about the actual beliefs of Christians. As God is not ignorant, this message to Mohammed is not from God.

Well in the first place the real educated to the Catholic Faith would never engage such an article to “criticize” the religion of others. Directly that which the Catholic leadership as deemed as Unappropriate to scorn, as your pointing out CA to be do exactly what it should not be doing…

what is far more important to recognize is the “ignorance” of those that deem themselves to be of a Catholic mind, and attack other religions in defiance to what the Catholic faith calls them to…and NOT to do…

**It increasingly comes to be recognized that the “Catholics” of the America are extremely ignorant and uneducated to their Catechism of the Catholic faith… ** the have self liberalized themselves to judge others.

And are you not also judging too? More so than the OP. The OP only said something which is true about the fundelmental difference between Catholicism and islam. There was nothing degrading islam in the opening post. I absolutely don’t see the point of stereotyping and critizing American Catholics as ignorant and uneducated.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’d like to know from Muslims if they really know what is Christianity in the first place.

Or rather if they don’t or not allowed to read the Bible?

In the Qur’an the spiritual leader Mohammed I believe tells his followers to read the scriptures that came before. So why not have an open mind and actually read the Bible?

Also I think saying Trinity alone gives the impression that there is Three of something when in truth we are talking about one God the Creator.

Let me be frank. I think it is frustrating for Muslims especially those who are ignorant of the sufferings endured by the early Christians or studied how the pagans (Romans) tried to hunt down and kill Christians for their beliefs- to make sense of the Trinity to start with or even to consider why it’s “needed” to understand God’s revelation to man.

MJ

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Also I think saying Trinity alone gives the impression that there is Three of something when in truth we are talking about one God the Creator.

MJ

It’s more than “something” the Trinity is Three Persons in One God. It is still necessary to understand why Christions profess Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
God the Father is the Creator.

 

[MartinJordan]

It’s more than “something” the Trinity is Three Persons in One God. It is still necessary to understand why Christions profess Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
God the Father is the Creator.

That’s what I meant. It is not Three of just “something”.

There is seriousness in it and not just to irritate other Faiths who came later

A very heavy Theology involved that mortal man cannot fathom totally but still this is One God who revealed himself through the incarnation of his Son. Thus The Trinity (complete with The Holy Spirit) Is …The Divinity.

I’d like to point out however, is that the Son is also Creator “through him ALL things were Made” and the Holy Spirit “is the Lord the giver of Life”

Thus this Divinity has always been there. God…One and True.

Non of the “persons” of God are created. Thus Muslims MUST believe that Christians believe in the One God, who created EVERYTHING. Not partners, not separate, not divided. Equal in Majesty, Power, Authority.

It’s all about God revealing Himself as he Loved the World revealing himself to Man, His Creation. With the Son, man can now call God Father and reconcile himself to Him. With the Holy Spirit, He guides us to all Truth.

MJ

 

[meedo]

I’d like to know from Muslims if they really know what is Christianity in the first place.

Or rather if they don’t or not allowed to read the Bible?

In the Qur’an the spiritual leader Mohammed I believe tells his followers to read the scriptures that came before. So why not have an open mind and actually read the Bible?

Also I think saying Trinity alone gives the impression that there is Three of something when in truth we are talking about one God the Creator.

Let me be frank. I think it is frustrating for Muslims especially those who are ignorant of the sufferings endured by the early Christians or studied how the pagans (Romans) tried to hunt down and kill Christians for their beliefs- to make sense of the Trinity to start with or even to consider why it’s “needed” to understand God’s revelation to man.

MJ

I would like to know… seriously… in good faith… why for example is Christianity different from Judaism . What is Christianity?

In regards to reading the bible… yes i did… not all of it … but i read as much as interested me. There is no such thing in this modern age as allowed or not allowed… everything is on the net.

Your last paragraph nails it on the head. We have no clue how to make sense of the trinity or understand why it is needed. You actually have some good points in your post.

 

[meedo]

That’s what I meant. It is not Three of just “something”.

There is seriousness in it and not just to irritate other Faiths who came later

A very heavy Theology involved that mortal man cannot fathom totally but still this is One God who revealed himself through the incarnation of his Son. Thus The Trinity (complete with The Holy Spirit) Is …The Divinity.

I’d like to point out however, is that the Son is also Creator “through him ALL things were Made” and the Holy Spirit “is the Lord the giver of Life”

Thus this Divinity has always been there. God…One and True.

Non of the “persons” of God are created. Thus Muslims MUST believe that Christians believe in the One God, who created EVERYTHING. Not partners, not separate, not divided. Equal in Majesty, Power, Authority.

It’s all about God revealing Himself as he Loved the World revealing himself to Man, His Creation. With the Son, man can now call God Father and reconcile himself to Him. With the Holy Spirit, He guides us to all Truth.

MJ

Ok … i just want to confirm my understanding, Christians believe that God is one… but he consists of 3 persons …these 3 persons are distinct ( they don’t morph from one to the other, they are separate entities and have always been separate entities) and has always been there ( not created… but they have all been there together with each other before creation)

Have i understood it correct?

 

[Augustine3]

Ok … i just want to confirm my understanding, Christians believe that God is one… but he consists of 3 persons …these 3 persons are distinct ( they don’t morph from one to the other, they are separate entities and have always been separate entities) and has always been there ( not created… but they have all been there together with each other before creation)

Have i understood it correct?

God is one entity. Three persons of one substance. Hard to grasp I know my friend. Nevertheless the truth is what it is whether we understand it or not does not change it.

From what I understand in Islamic theology God is unknowable. We know his attributes, but ultimately speaking God is unknowable.

 

[MartinJordan]

Ok … i just want to confirm my understanding, Christians believe that God is one… but he consists of 3 persons …these 3 persons are distinct ( they don’t morph from one to the other, they are separate entities and have always been separate entities) and has always been there ( not created… but they have all been there together with each other before creation)

Have i understood it correct?

You are very close Meedo. But The “Persons” are NOT separate entities but they are distinct. If “separated” that would be contradiction. The Persons are of the same nature. That is why I point out Divinity .

Thus not separate Divinities which would be then “Gods”

Peace.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

God is one entity. Three persons of one substance. Hard to grasp I know my friend. Nevertheless the truth is what it is whether we understand it or not does not change it.

From what I understand in Islamic theology God is unknowable. We know his attributes, but ultimately speaking God is unknowable.

I think it would be right to say “Hard to grasp” is explained as The Divine Mystery

MJ

 

[Augustine3]

I think it would be right to say “Hard to grasp” is explained as The Divine Mystery

MJ

Just like the virginal birth of Jesus