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planten
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Thanks for discussing / replying. It means that Mary never had any other children? But bible informs about other children of Mary.
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ralphinal
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Check it again. It says “brothers of Jesus” not "sons of Mary.’ This is a topic that has been beaten to death, but I’l; mention something on it here.
First, the word used can also be used for cousin.
Second, if they were blood siblings, why did JEsus entrust her care to John?
Third, they do not act like younger brothers are told to act in the Jewish Law.
Forth, they are never called her children.
Fifth, those that are called his brother by name are shown to be children of Mary the wife of Clopas, not Joseph.
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cathopologist
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I’d like to add a correction there, if i may. IMO, a virgin loses his/her virginity when he/she loses his/her innocence. This would also include looking at pornographic images or coming into contact with anything of sexual nature, or even having lustful thoughts or listening to gossipy stories of sex, etc.
God chose the right vessel to carry His child. He saw in her the new hope, the new Eve.
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Angelos
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Important notice for my Christian friends posting here: Planten is not a member of mainstream and traditional Islam. He belongs to a special group/sect named Ahmadiyya. Most of the Muslims consider Ahmadiyya a heretical group and never endorse their teachings. Thus, Ahmadiyya to Muslims is what JW or Unitarian Universalists to Christians.
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cathopologist
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Thank you brother Angelos for that information. It always weirded me out whenever he would give answers not found in mainstream Islamic teachings. Now i know.
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ralphinal
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Ok. Is there a good place where we can see the differences?
Wasn’t paarsurry a Ahmadiayya, too?
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Angelos
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You are welcome, brother.
Ahmadiyya has its peculiar version of the Koran (translation and interpretation) No wonder why Planten keeps repeating the “swoon theory” with regard to Jesus’ crucifixion and death. Islam rejects the idea that Jesus was arrested and crucified whereas Ahmadiyya asserts that Jesus was crucified indeed, but did not die. They presume that Jesus fell into a swoon on the cross and seemed dead when He was taken down from the cross.
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Angelos
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Paarsurrey was Ahmadiyya, too. This is why some posters here thought that planten and paarsurrey were the one and same person using two different nicks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya Most of the things stated in this article can be found in Planten’s various posts.
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Isa_Almisry
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Isa_Almisry
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Yes, whatever happened to him?
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ralphinal
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I am not sure. I’ll pm him. He could be as stubborn as an, but he was polite. He is on my prayer list.
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trustme80
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ahmadiyas in indonesia are having a very difficult time. in one province they are forced to live in refugee camps after their homes and mosques were burnt down. nationwide, their mosques are attacked, closed and the members are forced to pray in their own homes, and after a government ruling, they are banned from spreading their teachings.
when human-rights and various religious groups ( called the national alliance for freedom of religion and faith ) staged a protest in the capital, they were attacked by radical muslims resulting in dozens of injuries to both men & women.
just some info
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ralphinal
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They have my prayers. This no compulsion in Islam makes me sickahmadiyas in indonesia are having a very difficult time. in one province they are forced to live in refugee camps after their homes and mosques were burnt down. nationwide, their mosques are attacked, closed and the members are forced to pray in their own homes, and after a government ruling, they are banned from spreading their teachings.
when human-rights and various religious groups ( called the national alliance for freedom of religion and faith ) staged a protest in the capital, they were attacked by radical muslims resulting in dozens of injuries to both men & women.
just some info
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Isa_Almisry
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That can’t be correct.ahmadiyas in indonesia are having a very difficult time. in one province they are forced to live in refugee camps after their homes and mosques were burnt down. nationwide, their mosques are attacked, closed and the members are forced to pray in their own homes, and after a government ruling, they are banned from spreading their teachings.
when human-rights and various religious groups ( called the national alliance for freedom of religion and faith ) staged a protest in the capital, they were attacked by radical muslims resulting in dozens of injuries to both men & women.
just some info
Islam is the religion of peace.
And the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion.
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DLC
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Here is something for our Muslim fellows.
Adam was not born but created: Christ was born without a father. The creation of Adam was in this respect similar to the creation of the world, and the lower animals; whereas the Qur’an itself says that Christ’s supernatural birth took place through God’s purpose to give men a sign, and this is not to be said of any other prophet’s birth. To Abraham and Zecharias there was promised, according to the Qur’an a “wise son,” “a righteous prophet.” But regarding Christ’s birth the language used is very different, for Mary it is said, “Her who kept her maidenhood, and into whom We breathed Our spirit, and made her and her son a sign as without parallel. The same language is used neither of Mohammed nor of anyone else. Why is this, except because Christ is superior to all other prophets?
Why did God chose to interrupt the natural course of event in this way?
Adam was not born but created: Christ was born without a father. The creation of Adam was in this respect similar to the creation of the world, and the lower animals; whereas the Qur’an itself says that Christ’s supernatural birth took place through God’s purpose to give men a sign, and this is not to be said of any other prophet’s birth. To Abraham and Zecharias there was promised, according to the Qur’an a “wise son,” “a righteous prophet.” But regarding Christ’s birth the language used is very different, for Mary it is said, “Her who kept her maidenhood, and into whom We breathed Our spirit, and made her and her son a sign as without parallel. The same language is used neither of Mohammed nor of anyone else. Why is this, except because Christ is superior to all other prophets?
Why did God chose to interrupt the natural course of event in this way?
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dolphinlove
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Yes, thank you for pointing this out. Im wondering if it is Paarsurrey’s aggressive side coming out…
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inJESUS
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22 pages…
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planten
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**You are somehow trying to avoid the issue. Why did bible address them as his brothers? Why did not say " Jesus, Your relatives are here?"
Then mixing up with another Mary is meaningless, the wife of Clopas. Why they were called as brothers? It may be a necessary belief of the church that Mary never delivered another God. But she could have more ordinary children.
It means that her marriage with Joseph was a just a show piece for the whole lifetime? Not possible. Joseph lived with Mary for more than 12 years. It is reported in some verse that Mary and Joseph lived like husband and wife and they used to close their doors on the world like a husband and wife. That meant full husband and wife relationship.**
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dzheremi
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Planten, when I call Angelos, or Sam, or Morningstar or any other Christian on this forum my “brother”, it is not because we are biologically related as brothers of the same human family! This is common terminology within Christianity because we are brothers of the Kingdom of God. Doesn’t Islam observe a similar convention? Why is “Sister Amy” addressed that way? Is she your relative, or a sister in Islam? I have also heard Muslim men address one another as brother, and then of course there are also organizations like the “Muslim BROTHERHOOD”. Is this just a fun club invented for Muslim geneologists?
Not when you’re the one trying to prove that Mary, the Eternal Virgin, had sex and bore other children!
So says you. I will stick with the teachings of the Holy, Apostolic Church. They have 2000 years of divinely guided teachings, on this subject and all others. You have your “maybes” and “could haves”, in other words, nothing.
You probably would not like it if I said slanderous things about Muhammad, and then tried to cover them by putting in “could haves” everywhere. You would call it slander against the character of a person who you hold very dear in your religion and in your heart. Please recognize that we Christians, Catholics and Orthodox alike (and I think even most Protestants to some degree, though I don’t remember hearing much about her specifically in the Presbyterian church), feel as deeply for Mary as you do for Muhammad.
It is very strange and disturbing to me that you see a marriage as a “show piece” if there is no sex involved. While it is true that sexual intimacy is important within marriage, obviously Joseph’s marriage to Mary was not like marriage as it is often viewed today. It had a higher, divinely-ordained purpose. Joseph is rightly and greatly honored by all. He is the protector of mothers, fathers, and families, travellers, and working people. I myself prayed for his intercession as well as that of St. Anthony of Padua yesterday after a particularly trying time at the San Francisco Airport.
I got home safe and sound, thanks to God.
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planten
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That is not fair, using idle words in sacred books and disowning the real meanings of things like “brothers”. If you can do that then gate is open to transport anything every where.Planten, when I call Angelos, or Sam, or Morningstar or any other Christian on this forum my “brother”, it is not because we are biologically related as brothers of the same human family! This is common terminology within Christianity because we are brothers of the Kingdom of God. Doesn’t Islam observe a similar convention? Why is “Sister Amy” addressed that way? Is she your relative, or a sister in Islam? I have also heard Muslim men address one another as brother, and then of course there are also organizations like the “Muslim BROTHERHOOD”. Is this just a fun club invented for Muslim geneologists?
Then the son also does not mean anything. We often call others children as our sons. You people have a peculiar theology of :
- Calling every one a sinner, even a new born baby.
- But you want to keep Jesus out of that trouble.
- Perhaps Mary too. Otherwise Jesus will be the son of a sinner.
- Why are babies called sinners. You will give different reasons but one reason seems to be that you consider the meeting of husband and wife also as a sin.
- That is why you are not permitting Mary to have any sex even after the birth of Jesus, because that would be a sin.
We Muslims have all good ideas about Jesus and his mother and it is written in the Quran. You cannot show just more than an ordinary few words about Mary from the bible. You have nothing about her.
If youhave anything then please present it and do not formulate from yourself. Let your book talk about it. Let us have all about Mary from your book please.
I do not have to say. She is Married and it is not a sin to meet the husband. That is the difference as I pointed out in above para. Even if she has sex with her husband, we do not consider it a sin. But you do think like that for some reason.
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Joseph was married to Mary. I hope you will not deny that. What is the purpose of marriage? Or what was the purpose of that marriage? Why was it necessary? We Muslims do not blame Joseph or Mary or Jesus for anything. They were human beings and lived like a human. But you deny something and it is definitely wrong to feel the way you do.
I will not believe those things. You are free to believe what has been taught to you.
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Sure I would not like anything bad about Mary or Jesus or Muhammad. That should be enough for you. But the problemis that you think something bad (husband and wife relation) while I do not think that is bad. That is the problem. I have the universal approach. You have special feelings and special approach which could be un-natural. Do not blame me for anything which I do not consider as sin.
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You want me and the world to believe that? Just for you? And if ever I said something about Muhammad that the angel brought to him the messages from God, you will deny it.
Therefore it is better for me to deny what you have written. How could that marriage have special meanings? And why?. That would be a show piece marriage and something to cheat the whole world.
Please show me from your book that Joseph the carpenter is the protector of mothers, fathers, and families, travellers, and working people.I got home safe and sound, thanks to God.
You were too quick in calling for his intercession. He is dead and cannot hear you. It is better that you pray to One God only and hope for the best. And I wish you well. If there is anything written contrary to your wishes, please excuse because I may not have time to edit anything.
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