Islam and the Virgin Birth of Jesus

[ralphinal]

**If you can explain the doubtful birth of Jesus and get away with it, we can also explain everything in the similar manner. That one question about the birth of Jesus is hard on you and there is no legal explanation for that.

Then you have to explain why your god was praying? Do Gods also pray? Then why did a god die? Initially your god was not willing to preach to any non-Jew. Then in the end, when the Jews did not listen to him, he suddenly changed his policy (That was a strict policy) and felt like preaching to other nations.

Why was the God preaching? Do gods preach too. What for? That people believe in them as a god? There could be a long list for you too to answer and I am sure you will have no answer.**

Thank you for proving my point. You will not answer one simple question with two parts: who is his father and what traits came from him. It is very easy.

You answer this and I will answer your questions. I will never need to, though, because the answer to yours is too frightening to you

 

[Angelos]

If you can explain the doubtful birth of Jesus and get away with it, we can also explain everything in the similar manner. That one question about the birth of Jesus is hard on you and there is no legal explanation for that.

We do not need to explain Jesus’ nativity since we see nothing doubtful about it. Our faith in the New Testament is firm unlike your faith in your own scripture (the Koran). In order to debate with us certain tenets, you must determine what your religion is. Most of the time you sound like an atheist or a Jew when Jesus is in question.

**
Then you have to explain why your god was praying? Do Gods also pray? Then why did a god die? Initially your god was not willing to preach to any non-Jew. Then in the end, when the Jews did not listen to him, he suddenly changed his policy (That was a strict policy) and felt like preaching to other nations.**

Why do Jesus’ incarnation and His dialogues with His Father scandalise you? According to your scripture, God is said to talk to Himself although the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation are denied. In the following verse God supposedly thanks Himself:

Surah 1:1-2
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds.

More, in some verses of the Koran God is said to address Himself as another person. For instance:

Surah 40:2-3
The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah, the Mighty, the Knower, The Forgiver of sin, the Accepter of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Bountiful. There is no God save Him. Unto Him is the journeying

As for the universality of Jesus’ message, you are in error as usual. Since Jesus’ death was for all, His message and grace are universal although His prophetic mission had been confined to Israel.

**
Why was the God preaching? Do gods preach too. What for? That people believe in them as a god? There could be a long list for you too to answer and I am sure you will have no answer.**

There is no limit to Islamic absurdities indeed. Jesus’ preaching as God is not different than the Islamic tenet that God reveals His Word to mankind.

 

[morning_star777]

If you can explain the doubtful birth of Jesus and get away with it, we can also explain everything in the similar manner. That one question about the birth of Jesus is hard on you and there is no legal explanation for that.

Ya you can.so explain us,who was the father of Lord Jesus?No one can born without father so your so called Koranic miracles do not work here.And we believe that Jesus has father and he is God the holy father,and jesus was born with the power of holy spirit(christian friends please correct me if I am wrong).But planten I think,our explanations are meaningless to you,because no explanation and no proof is enough for you.

Then you have to explain why your god was praying? Do Gods also pray? Then why did a god die? Initially your god was not willing to preach to any non-Jew. Then in the end, when the Jews did not listen to him, he suddenly changed his policy (That was a strict policy) and felt like preaching to other nations.

God was praying but it was the prayer of a son to his father and I think that Jesus was teaching us how to pray to God,and for your information,we are christians,not aryan(the ancestors of hindus),so we have Only one God and not Gods.It was also explained to you,but I said that explanations are not enough for you..Well very well.If you can not understand the trinity then how can you expect from us that we will believe your own calculation about inheritance law?your Koran says that 1.125=1=1.25 and without any references you had changed that calculation and tried to compel me to accept it!But our trinity is not a complex and weird thing like your koranic calculation,what is full of fatal error.and at last I want to say,God died but then ressurected and he died for our sin,he wanted to save us from sin.Our God loves us and also loves you.he is not the selfish and cruel deity like your allah,who(allah)want to burn non muslims without any reason.Remember,your allah’s greed for being worshiped is not good manner.But I can not blame allah for this because allah is a weak God(GOD?) who need worship from people,but Our Lord Jesus,the only true lord is free from all needs.

Why was the God preaching? Do gods preach too. What for? That people believe in them as a god? There could be a long list for you too to answer and I am sure you will have no answer.

Is it very difficult to understand?ok then answer me 1st,why your God forgot his own words?(Torah,Pslams and Gospels).why he did not re send those the books?Have you any answer?

 

[ralphinal]

Well, other people answered it.

Now, tell us, who is Jesus’s father and what traits did he inherit from him?

 

[dzheremi]

morning_star777, thank you for all of the good observations in your post. Of course, we all realize that what the Muslim posters here want is not proof from the Bible or from Church traditions, but agreement with Islam. I have stated this in very explicit terms in reply to a post by “American Revert”, but of course she did not address it. The Muslims here know that they cannot simply come out and say “You must agree with Islam”, because this is a Christian website and the faith and arguments of its members are strong, and also it would prove that they are not at all interested in actual discussion, but real submission to the will of Muslims, because that’s all Islam ever really wants from Christians.

 

[morning_star777]

morning_star777, thank you for all of the good observations in your post. Of course, we all realize that what the Muslim posters here want is not proof from the Bible or from Church traditions, but agreement with Islam. I have stated this in very explicit terms in reply to a post by “American Revert”, but of course she did not address it. The Muslims here know that they cannot simply come out and say “You must agree with Islam”, because this is a Christian website and the faith and arguments of its members are strong, and also it would prove that they are not at all interested in actual discussion, but real submission to the will of Muslims, because that’s all Islam ever really wants from Christians.

you are welcome and thank you too!And here some of our muslim fellows ignore some posts what they can not reply with logic,hope you saw that.and i think that some people will never accept the truth.And my friend I read your many posts and those are nice.carry on your work.May God’s love and peace always be with you.

 

[mattkubes]

morning_star777, thank you for all of the good observations in your post. Of course, we all realize that what the Muslim posters here want is not proof from the Bible or from Church traditions, but agreement with Islam. I have stated this in very explicit terms in reply to a post by “American Revert”, but of course she did not address it. The Muslims here know that they cannot simply come out and say “You must agree with Islam”, because this is a Christian website and the faith and arguments of its members are strong, and also it would prove that they are not at all interested in actual discussion, but real submission to the will of Muslims, because that’s all Islam ever really wants from Christians.

Well I, for one, will never pay my jizyah

 

[dzheremi]

Morning_star777: Thank you for your kind words about my posts. May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always, as well.

Mattkubes: I have read in the Quran where it says Jizyah is to be extracted from the Christians in a way that “they feel themselves subdued”. All I have to say to that is that it’s a wonderful to have already subdued myself to the will of the true Creator long before I had ever even heard of Islam! This is much better than a “god” like the Islamic Allah, who sets up an extortion racket for his followers so that they can have all the riches of the earth.

The Muslims will never understand our refusal to submit, but to me it is most simply explained in John 18:36, where Jesus tells His followers “My kingdom is not of this world.” If only it were that our Muslim posters here would answer so simply and directly!

Go ahead and have your pieces of silver, Islam. You will lose in the end.

 

[planten]

Planten, if we answer these questions…will you even listen.

To sum it up, He is not “a god.” He is God. He is the God of you and I. Listen to Him calling you out from your false ideology!

** I am sorry. When you say that Father is a God, when you say Jesus is a God, when you say holy spirit is a god too, then what can I say? With all those gods, I have to say that you believe Jesus as a god.**

 

[planten]

To explain why Jesus prays TO HIS OWN FATHER in the Bible, we would need to make Planten understand the nature of the Trinity. Is this really possible? I don’t think we can do it, but you know what is said in the Bible about all things being possible with God.

I will pray that Planten has a change of heart.

**You will have to explain Trinity which you can never do. I have seen written in the forum, some christian admitted that Trinity cannot be explained. So my question will stand. Why a god is praying? That means there was another God to whom he was praying. **

 

[planten]

Planten - Please read and answer this. Keep in mind that Mohammed’s book claims that Jesus was born of a Virgin

** I personally do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin (unless virgin is understood differently). It is not written as such explicitly in the Quran and Hadith. The Quran and Hadith do not say that Jesus had no father.

So Quran does not say Jesus was born of a virgin. So my business ends there and I need not answer anything further. You may define a virgin please.

As I understand, a lady is a virgin if she has not seen any man before meeting her husband. If that is the case then she is a virgin for all her life even after mating with husband and bearing children. But what do you say about the virgin?
**

 

[planten]

morning_star777, thank you for all of the good observations in your post. Of course, we all realize that what the Muslim posters here want is not proof from the Bible or from Church traditions, but agreement with Islam. I have stated this in very explicit terms in reply to a post by “American Revert”, but of course she did not address it. The Muslims here know that they cannot simply come out and say “You must agree with Islam”, because this is a Christian website and the faith and arguments of its members are strong, and also it would prove that they are not at all interested in actual discussion, but real submission to the will of Muslims, because that’s all Islam ever really wants from Christians.

**You have been asking questions and you think those are some real great questions. Nothing of the sort. We also worked out some problems that we noted in the bible 1. About God praying and 2. About God dying. those were justified. There was no dirty play in that as you normally try to do with Islam.

As far as I know, you have good info about Quran with you. There is no need to ask anything from me. It is all there and you can find it yourself please. I do not now understand your questions at all. The matter has become so confused now. It is better to leave it at that. Thanks.

And if still something remains to be answered from us then please ask angelos who claims to have good knowledge about Islam.**

 

[Sharp101]

for your information,we are christians,not aryan(the ancestors of hindus),

so we have Only one God and not Gods.

at last I want to say,God died but then ressurected and he died for our sin,he wanted to save us from sin.

Our God loves us and also loves you.he is not the selfish and cruel deity like your allah,who(allah)want to burn non muslims without any reason.

This post is not just a TYPICAL but very FUNNY. I don’t know whether this poster, who wrote/bleleive that his **“God died”, **have any real clue to what he/she is really talking about.

Anyway, let me take his first point now. Later (if I don’t get banned) I will try to answer all.

( Note: Please note, how Catholics/non-Catholic Christians on this forum are posting very bad, offensive and harsh words about Islam and it’s Prophet, but they don’t get banned. It seems it is KOSHER for them.
But Muslim posters cannot even quote specific verses of the Holy Bible. If they do, they get banned right away.)

for your information,we are christians,not aryan(the ancestors of hindus),

If you are not an Aryan, then what is the big deal. Still you are a gentile, if you are not a Jew. If your ancesters were once Jews and you are not, but a Christian, and not circumcised, then your soul got cut off from God’s people, as per your Bible.

You seem a gentile. You follow that Jew who in your mind was God who once born and died too.

And that your Jewish God was once a baby Jew…who got circumcised when he was 8 days old, by an another Jewish man.

Do you know in those days ( 2000 years ago), how mohellim (circumcisers) used to carry out circumcision on Jewish male babies/men? There are cases, in which the circumcisers ( mohelim ) take penis in their mouth right after cutting foreskin to stop bleeding.

For Jews, circumcision is mandatory, as it is prescribed in the Torah:

In the book of Genesis as a mark of the Covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham: "Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old…This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. **The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people **; he has broken my Covenant" (Genesis 17:1-14), and
In Leviticus: “God spoke to Moses, telling him to speak to the Israelites: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy…And on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.” (Leviticus 12:1-3).

nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mohel

If your God was born not to destroy the Law and also to fulfill it with an additional hardship to it, and he too went through circumscion when he was just 8 days old, (perhaps in order not his soul to get cut off from his jewish people) then he most certainly was in favor of circumcision atleast for all those people who first harken to his message and ofcourse they all were Jews. Unless he had double standard.

But we see Paul ( who not only a Jew but a Phsarisee) how he circumcised a grown Greek man’s penis, yet he was preaching almost against it.

What circumcison has to do with man, anyway? Is it something beneficial or it is just to appease God? Why God of Israel wanted Jews’ foreskins to be cut off? He did not even spare His own so-called “Only Son’s” foreskin. Was that foreskin too Divine, that is not my question here, nor I am aware of what happened to it and whee it is gone, because we are talking about your God’s foreskin and not any Tom, **** and Harrys’s.

There must be something good in this circumcison, which Paul surprisingly did not want you to have it.

 

[planten]

Well I, for one, will never pay my jizyah

**You will never have to pay any Jizyah. There will never be such a state that you or any one else have to pay any Jizyah. You will pay your Jizyah to your own christian dominated states as tax. That will be your Jizyah.

There is a Hadith that a time has come when there will be no religious holy wars and then, of course, no Jizyah. So do not worry please.**

 

[Psalter]

This post is not just a TYPICAL but very FUNNY. I don’t know whether this poster, who wrote/bleleive that his **“God died”, **have any real clue to what he/she is really talking about.

Anyway, let me take his first point now. Later (if I don’t get banned) I will try to answer all.

( Note: Please note, how Catholics/non-Catholic Christians on this forum are posting very bad, offensive and harsh words about Islam and it’s Prophet, but they don’t get banned. It seems it is KOSHER for them.
But Muslim posters cannot even quote specific verses of the Holy Bible. If they do, they get banned right away.)

If you are not an Aryan, then what is the big deal. Still you are a gentile, if you are not a Jew. If your ancesters were once Jews and you are not but but a Christian and not circumcised, your soul got cut off from God’s people.

You seem a gentile. You follow that Jew whoin your mind was God. And that your Jewish God was once a baby Jew…who got circumcised when he was 8 days old, by an another Jewish man.

Do you know in those days ( 2000 years ago), how mohellim (circumcisers) used to carry out circumcision on Jewish male babies/men? There are cases, in which the circumcisers ( mohelim ) take penis in their mouth right after cutting foreskin to stop bleeding.

If your God was born not to destroy the Law and also to fulfill it with an additional hardship to it, and he too went through circumscion when he was just 8 days old, (perhaps in order not his soul to get cut off from his jewish people) then he most certainly was in favor of circumcision atleast for all those people who first harken to his message and ofcourse they all were Jews. Unless he had double standard.

But we see Paul ( who not only a Jew but a Phsarisee) how he circumcised a grown Greek man’s penis, yet he was preaching almost against it.

What circumcison has to do with man, anyway? Is it something beneficial or it is just to appease God? Why God of Israel wanted Jews’ foreskins to be cut off? He did not even spare His own so-called “Only Son’s” foreskin. Was that foreskin too Divine, that is not my question here, nor I am aware of what happened to it and whee it is gone, because we are talking about your God’s foreskin and not any Tom, **** and Harrys’s.

There must be something good in this circumcison, which Paul surprisingly did not want you to have it.

MarySee, you seem to have some sort of Freudian fixation with circumcision, foreskins, and penises. Is there anything you want to share with us?

 

[dzheremi]

You will have to explain Trinity which you can never do.

The Church Fathers who expanded upon the nature of the Trinity seemed to do a good job. I can’t outdo them, but luckily many of their writings are still with us, so we can still learn from them.

I have seen written in the forum, some christian admitted that Trinity cannot be explained.

You misunderstand, sir. Christians of all denominations hold that the complete nature of God cannot be known to us as humans. So the Trinity said to be a “mystery”, not because we cannot explain it at all, but because God by His very nature is unknowable to us here on earth. Doesn’t the Quran say about God that "“No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things” (Qur’an 6:103)? So why are you asking about explaining God, or getting upset when Christians admit that we cannot truly grasp Him in His complete nature?

So my question will stand. Why a god is praying? That means there was another God to whom he was praying.

To my understanding, God is praying because Jesus is fully God AND fully man in the hypostatic union. Unless you are talking to non-Chalcedonian Christians (for example, Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Christians), this is probably the answer you will get. What does it mean for Jesus to be fully God and fully man? Well, for the purposes of our discussion, it means He is tempted. This is why He prays to His Father, who is God the Father (the first of the Trinity), for strength to resist His temptations, since “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[planten]

Morning_star777: Thank you for your kind words about my posts. May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always, as well.

Mattkubes: I have read in the Quran where it says Jizyah is to be extracted from the Christians in a way that “they feel themselves subdued”. All I have to say to that is that it’s a wonderful to have already subdued myself to the will of the true Creator long before I had ever even heard of Islam! This is much better than a “god” like the Islamic Allah, who sets up an extortion racket for his followers so that they can have all the riches of the earth.

The Muslims will never understand our refusal to submit, but to me it is most simply explained in John 18:36, where Jesus tells His followers “My kingdom is not of this world.” If only it were that our Muslim posters here would answer so simply and directly!

Go ahead and have your pieces of silver, Islam. You will lose in the end.

**We Muslims believe what Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”. I wish that all christians (heads of state too) agree to that.

There is so much talk about Jizyah. Jesus told all of you to pay the Jizyah. But you do not like that saying of Jesus now.

Jesus said "Give unto Kaisar what is kaisar’s…’ That was Jizyah alright. Please think over and do not go against the wishes of the one whom you worship. Thanks**.

 

[Psalter]

**We Muslims believe what Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”. I wish that all christians (heads of state too) agree to that.

There is so much talk about Jizyah. Jesus told all of you to pay the Jizyah. But you do not like that saying of Jesus now.

Jesus said "Give unto Kaisar what is kaisar’s…’ That was Jizyah alright. Please think over and do not go against the wishes of the one whom you worship. Thanks**.

But I thought Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim…so why don’t you guys obey him and pay the jizyah?

 

[Psalter]

This is why He prays to His Father, who is God the Father (the first of the Trinity), for strength to resist His temptations, since “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Not that Jesus was ever tempted to commit sin for, as God, He couldn’t…but the temptation of Jesus was an outward one, not from within. It is about Satan “testing” Jesus to see if He is really the Son of God.

 

[ralphinal]

** I personally do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin (unless virgin is understood differently). It is not written as such explicitly in the Quran and Hadith. The Quran and Hadith do not say that Jesus had no father.

So Quran does not say Jesus was born of a virgin. So my business ends there and I need not answer anything further. You may define a virgin please.

As I understand, a lady is a virgin if she has not seen any man before meeting her husband. If that is the case then she is a virgin for all her life even after mating with husband and bearing children. But what do you say about the virgin?
**

Is this wrong from about.com?

Muslims believe that Jesus (called 'Isa in Arabic) was the son of Mary, and was conceived without the intervention of a human father. The Qur’an describes that an angel appeared to Mary, to announce to her the “gift of a holy son” (19:19). She was astonished at the news, and asked: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” (19:20). When the angel explained to her that she had been chosen for the service of God, and that God had ordained the matter, she devoutly submitted herself to His will.

In the Qur’an and other Islamic sources, there is no mention of Joseph the carpenter, nor any recollection of the inn and manger legend. On the contrary, the Qur’an describes that Mary retreated from her people (outside the city), and gave birth to Jesus underneath a remote date palm tree. The tree miraculously provided nourishment for her during labor and birth. (See Chapter 19 of the Qur’an for the entire story. The chapter has aptly been named “The Chapter of Mary.”)

or how about this from islamonline.net?

[Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

She said: “I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.”

He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.”

She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”

He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’: It is a matter (so) decreed.”

So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.] (Maryam 19:16–22)

So is the Qur’an wrong or are you?