Islam and the Virgin Birth of Jesus

[inJESUS]

Wow, this thread is now TEN pages long and we STILL have not heard an answer!!

i’ve been waiting for years…but i can keep waiting to see Muslims fill in with meaning the empty big words they believe in like “virgin birth” and “it appeared as if he was crucified”…

 

[planten]

** Both of the above, (a) and (b) are wrong. But could you please amend the first one as follows and put the word husband there? See:
a) Mary slept with another Man (i.e. her husband only). Why you did not keep such a possibility and you stopped short of sleeping with a man. That man could be a husband too. What do you say, as a possibility only.
My Question: Will that not be a virgin birth? What do you say? Please tell. It is important to know about your meaning of the word virgin.

**

Secondly I notice further back in this thread you compare Christ’s remarks about rendering what is Caesars unto Caesar as justification for Jizya. Only one small teeny teeny problem with that, tax in the Roman empire was not levied according to religous denomination. You also make the comparision of Jizya to taxes levelled in so called ‘Christian dominated states’ - again the same teeny teeny problem, the US (since most posters here are American I will use that model for convenience) does not levy tax according to whether you are Muslim, Quaker, Catholic, Jain, Hindu etc. etc. You are using situations that have nothing in common to try and establish the fairness of a brutal and oppressive tax. Shoud anyone have introduced Jizya in my own land (which thank God was highly unlikely considering our location) I would gladly support those who protested and took up arms against similar taxes imposed by England on us.Jizya is a tax whose only purpose is to humilate and insult conquered populaces -populaces which are justified in ‘rebelling’ until they regain their own independence as a result. And this was largely what did happen where Christian and other populaces were not so ground down or out-numbered that this became an impossibilty. Some quick looks at many a countries history in Eastern European will show the wonders of Jizya in operation.

**There is no teeny weeny problem. It is a tax to be paid to the other nations and Jesus told you to do it. Please do not deny it. Whether it is due to a religious matter or otherwise, tax is a tax being levied and you should not object if Kaiser demands it or a Khalifah demands it.
I am only speaking to you on principle only. Otherwise no one is going to ask you for any new tax.

But I have not explained the full wsdom of that tax yet. If you are interested then I could tell you all about it later. Yes?
**

But returning to the point of the thread - you have worked yourself into a corner - if Mary does not conceive without knowing a man the Q’uran is a lie and if she does the Q’uran obviously is plagarising the New Testament (but since the Q’uran is obviously a set of plagarised ill adapated documents with the quality of a suit made of shoddy rags that should not suprise us)

** I am sorry. If Mary does not concieve without a husband, the Quran is not a lie. The Quran does not say that Mary will definitely concieve without a husband. That is for sure. So do not have any wrong ideas. I do not want to indulge into it too much, more at this time.**

 

[ralphinal]

I am sorry. If Mary does not concieve without a husband, the Quran is not a lie. The Quran does not say that Mary will concieve without a husband. That is for sure. So do not have any wrong ideas. I do not want to indulge into it too much, more.

Yes, it is. She said that she was chaste. If a man got her pregnant, it is more proof that the Qur’an is false. You are safe on this one, as the Bible says that she was a virgin as well.

Please answer the questions: who is Jesus’s father and what traits did he inherit from him?

 

[ralphinal]

Sister Amy would give us an answer, or at least say she did not know.

Why can’t you guys be more honest like her?

 

[Angelos]

**
There is no teeny weeny problem. It is a tax to be paid to the other nations and Jesus told you to do it. Please do not deny it. Whether it is due to a religious matter or otherwise, tax is a tax being levied and you should not object if Kaiser demands it or a Khalifah demands it.

I am only speaking to you on principle only. Otherwise no one is going to ask you for any new tax.

But I have not explained the full wsdom of that tax yet. If you are interested then I could tell you all about it later. Yes?**

This is a very weak and ridiculous argument derived from Muslims’ general tendency to misunderstand and misinterpret (twist) Jesus’ certain statements.

How can you claim that Jesus endorsed every certain policy and practice of the Roman empire??? Do you really believe that Jesus sided with the same earthly kingdoms for persecuting His followers? By no means!

Jesus only asked the people questioning Him not to confuse religious matters with political affairs. Since this is what Islam has been doing since the day of its establishment as a man-made political ideology, Jesus’ statement also means that Islam cannot be from above. Islamic commandments in the Koran about the humiliation of non-Muslims go against the core of Jesus’ teachings as they try to give to Ceasar what belongs to God!

**
I am sorry. If Mary does not concieve without a husband, the Quran is not a lie. The Quran does not say that Mary will definitely concieve without a husband. That is for sure. So do not have any wrong ideas. I do not want to indulge into it too much, more at this time.**

Dear planten, you sound very confused now. People coming to this forum and reading your posts might doubt your faith in the Islamic scripture.

The Koran says Mary was a virgin and asks Muslims not to doubt it. Accordingly, the Koran always designates Mary as a chaste woman giving birth without human intervention and a husband. For instance, the following verses apparently emphasise Mary’s virginity:

Surah 66:10-12
Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them): Enter the Fire along with those who enter. And Allah citeth an example for those who believe: the wife of Pharaoh when she said: My Lord! Build for me a home with thee in the Garden, and deliver me from Pharaoh and his work, and deliver me from evil-doing folk. And Mary, **daughter **of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefore We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.

Why do you think the phrase “the wife of” is replaced with the phrase “the daughter of” when Mary is in question??

 

[ralphinal]

I guess we will never know.

 

[Analyzer]

Please answer the questions: who is Jesus’s father and what traits did he inherit from him?

**

Please remember that the Father of all spirits–including Jesus’ spirit–is ONE and SAME GOD. We all–including Jesus–are offspring of God.

God created all of us incorruptible as He made us all in the image of his own likeness. Due to God’s likeness, all children are sinless. No wonder if you become like children, the Kingdom of Heaven is yours. If you humble yourself like a child, your are greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

We all including Jesus and his mother Mary are born sinless. This is the trait we all inherit. Jesus is no exception. After birth Jesus became flesh and blood as we are because he had to be made like his brethren in every manner.

When God told you “You shall not commit murder”, it’s undeniable implication is that you are not a murderer unless you commit an act that violates that command of God. God knows that you have the ability of not committing such an act. This ability is given by God Himself to you. Otherwise God would be a liar or not aware what you can and cannot do.

Like any other prophet of God, the greatness of Jesus is his commitment to the mission assigned by God Almighty, despite his nature was just like us.

If he was immune to commit sin, then there was no greatness in him. If your body is too hot and cannot feel cold and you survive in cold weather without any proper clothing…nothing great. If Jesus was God and as God conquered death…nothing great. If Jesus was a man and dies when put to death…nothing miraculous. If he did not die then it is miraculous but not because of his own ability but due to the God’s Protection and Mercy and Blessings.

If Jews were after Jesus’ life…no surprise because Jews used to kill their own prophets.

I hope I answer the simple question asked repeatedly.

**

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello and good morning,

again, accusations and mean words…can’t anyone discuss without such rudeness goin on?

Angelos said, Why do you think the phrase “the wife of” is replaced with the phrase “the daughter of” when Mary is in question??

Do you even know that Maryam had a father named Imran? lol you misunderstood YET AGAIN.

americanrevert

 

[Psalter]

Hello and good morning,

again, accusations and mean words…can’t anyone discuss without such rudeness goin on?

Do you even know that Maryam had a father named Imran? lol you misunderstood YET AGAIN.

americanrevert

Mary’s father was Joachim, not “Imran.” And the Quran confuses Mary (or Miriam) the sister of Moses with Mary, the Mother of Our Lord.

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello,

analyzer…huh? If I read your post correctly, you are denying the case of “original sin”? Is this what Catholicism believes to hold as truth?

americanrevert

 

[Psalter]

Hello,

analyzer…huh? If I read your post correctly, you are denying the case of “original sin”? Is this what Catholicism believes to hold as truth?

americanrevert

Analyzer is not a Christian, AmericanRevert. And yes, Catholicism holds original sin as true.

 

[Americanrevert]

palster said, Mary’s father was Joachim, not “Imran.” And the Quran confuses Mary (or Miriam) the sister of Moses with Mary, the Mother of Our Lord.

The quote he quoted was from the English translation of the Quran. Not the Bible. *And Maryam’s father was named Imran. *The Quran doesn’t confuse anything. That is your opinion.

(name removed by moderator) said, Combine that with ‘you too’ type strategies and vague off-topic remarks on areas os Islamic or Christian thinking not even related to the thread and it is apparent that the apologists for Islam on this forum are doing a very, very poor job.

No matter how you look at it, many of the Questions that are being asked from the Muslims side of things, are not being answered truthfully. Very Vague indeed. I ask for proof, they give me a belief and not proof…this is what I mean…I used to do the very same thing until someone told me I was doing it. I then had the sense to go and search of really what someone was asking me. Who wrote John? Who wrote Matthew?? no one yet in this forum can HONESTLY say and admit what they quote from their belief that their answers are correct. I have been misquoted, unfairly judged, criticized, accused, and just plain been rude to many of the times and I just ignore since I know it stems from just ignorance. The Muslims on here, some are knowledgeable some aren’t~just like many Christians, but when one side accuses and makes accusations and are proud to be mean, well, that is just not nice. Makes one in turn, lower their step to their level. Is hard to digest meanness but easy to dish it. Ya can’t blame Muslims if they can’t give you an answer that you are accusing them of, especially if they are innocent and ignorant (meaning they don’t know the correct answer to give you) of what you are accusing them of. They perhaps have no answer to give you in terms of what you expect, but that isn’t any reason to cause havoc in the forum with rudeness and meanness. They should find the correct answer and come back with it. It is their duty in Islam. People are knowledgeable some aren’t. It is the truth we are hoping for and not horribleness.

I suggest some of the Christians stop their nonsense and the Muslims would have no reason to reply to them…what ever happened to turn the other cheek…it get slapped?

americanrevert

 

[dzheremi]

AmericanRevert: There is a difference between not answering a question and being dissatisfied with the answer you are presented. Your problem is not that Christians here are being vague (please! As if we could even compete in that regard with you and Planten!) or avoiding your questions, but that they don’t conform to what you think we should say. Guess what? Christianity is not Islam, so we will never ever say as you seem to imply that we should that the Gospels are not divinely guided works! “John”, “Mark”…whatever they are named, the Holy Spirit that spoke through their writers is the same! Quit complaining that we don’t just cave in to Islam. If you have an actual question, not just an accusation, then bring it forth. We will answer.

Think of it this way: If I asked you the question “Why is Muhammad’s pedophilia sanctioned by the Quran?”, which I think is a perfectly legitimate question by the way, you would probably answer (if you answered at all) by claiming that Muhammad was NOT a pedophile, so my question is based on false premises. This is completely in keeping with your religion’s view of its prophet, so I would frankly doubt your identity as a Muslim if you didn’t answer in this way. That being the case, you should recognize the defense of the Bible and the Biblical depiction of Jesus is for us like your Islamic defense of Muhammad: It is not something on which we will entertain another position, no matter how often you repeat your claim that no one has yet honestly answered your questions.

Besides, would you know an honest answer if you saw one? You have seen many, but cannot allow yourself to admit them because they violate your scripture. Boo hoo. Christianity is not Islam. Welcome to life. Get over it.

 

[Psalter]

The quote he quoted was from the English translation of the Quran. Not the Bible. *And Maryam’s father was named Imran. *The Quran doesn’t confuse anything. That is your opinion.

No matter how you look at it, many of the Questions that are being asked from the Muslims side of things, are not being answered truthfully. Very Vague indeed. I ask for proof, they give me a belief and not proof…this is what I mean…I used to do the very same thing until someone told me I was doing it. I then had the sense to go and search of really what someone was asking me. Who wrote John? Who wrote Matthew?? no one yet in this forum can HONESTLY say and admit what they quote from their belief that their answers are correct. I have been misquoted, unfairly judged, criticized, accused, and just plain been rude to many of the times and I just ignore since I know it stems from just ignorance. The Muslims on here, some are knowledgeable some aren’t~just like many Christians, but when one side accuses and makes accusations and are proud to be mean, well, that is just not nice. Makes one in turn, lower their step to their level. Is hard to digest meanness but easy to dish it. Ya can’t blame Muslims if they can’t give you an answer that you are accusing them of, especially if they are innocent and ignorant (meaning they don’t know the correct answer to give you) of what you are accusing them of. They perhaps have no answer to give you in terms of what you expect, but that isn’t any reason to cause havoc in the forum with rudeness and meanness. They should find the correct answer and come back with it. It is their duty in Islam. People are knowledgeable some aren’t. It is the truth we are hoping for and not horribleness.

I suggest some of the Christians stop their nonsense and the Muslims would have no reason to reply to them…what ever happened to turn the other cheek…it get slapped?

americanrevert

Like I said, AmericanRevert…the Quran is garbage. And blessed Mary’s father was Joachim according to Christian Tradition…and that certainly carries more weight than what some illiterate pagan Arab in the desert said 700 years after the fact. Amram (or Imran if you will) was the father of Moses, Aaron, and Mary the sister of Moses. Miriam (a.k.a. Mary) the daughter of Amram and sister of Moses lived 1500 years before the Blessed Virgin Mary, the daughter of Anna and Joachim.

…and you say the Quran doesn’t confuse things?

St. Matthew wrote Matthew; St. John the Apostle wrote John–DUH!

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello Dzheremi,

What questions have I not answered??? I asked that before and no one replied.

wow such hostility here we go again with the bashing

americanrevert

 

[Angelos]

**

Please remember that the Father of all spirits–including Jesus’ spirit–is ONE and SAME GOD. We all–including Jesus–are offspring of God.
**

This is not true per se. Jesus became our brother only through the incarnation of the uncreated and eternal Word whilst we became Jesus’ brothers after He saved us. Since Jesus is the only begotten of the Father unlike us, the children through adoption, it is unreasonable to claim that Jesus and we are the Sons of God in the same sense and manner. Although Jesus became our brother, He never included Himself into the group of God’s children through the usage of the phrase OUR Father.

**
God created all of us incorruptible as He made us all in the image of his own likeness. Due to God’s likeness, all children are sinless. No wonder if you become like children, the Kingdom of Heaven is yours. If you humble yourself like a child, your are greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.
**

This was the case for the humanity before the fall! Adam and Eve fell and were banished from the Garden of Eden. Human nature is no more sinless and perfect. If all humans are essentially children of God, why did Jesus ask His followers to be childlike to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Your conclusion makes no sense.

**
We all including Jesus and his mother Mary are born sinless. This is the trait we all inherit. Jesus is no exception. After birth Jesus became flesh and blood as we are because he had to be made like his brethren in every manner.
**

How do you think we can inherit perfection and innocence from our first parents, who committed a major sin and fell by disobeying God? You sound like one that has never read the New Testament.

What was Jesus prior to His becoming flesh?

**
When God told you “You shall not commit murder”, it’s undeniable implication is that you are not a murderer unless you commit an act that violates that command of God. God knows that you have the ability of not committing such an act. This ability is given by God Himself to you. Otherwise God would be a liar or not aware what you can and cannot do.
**

This is ridiculous. If humans had not known what murder was, God would not have given that commandment. Humans have free will to choose the good or the evil. The first parents of the mankind knew both the good and the evil and were stripped of their privileged state.

**
Like any other prophet of God, the greatness of Jesus is his commitment to the mission assigned by God Almighty, despite his nature was just like us.
**

According to the New Testament, Jesus’ prophetic mission only functioned to manifest His true identity as the Son of God. It seems that you are a Muslim poster pretending to endorse only some Christian tenets for the sake of perversion.

Rational/Marysee/Counsel, is that you behind the curtain? LOL

**
If he was immune to commit sin, then there was no greatness in him. If your body is too hot and cannot feel cold and you survive in cold weather without any proper clothing…nothing great. If Jesus was God and as God conquered death…nothing great. If Jesus was a man and dies when put to death…nothing miraculous. If he did not die then it is miraculous but not because of his own ability but due to the God’s Protection and Mercy and Blessings.
**

If every human is born sinless and in the perfect state of creation, why did Jesus come to our world? Why did God send so many prophets and leaders?

Jesus was tempted in every way like us although He conquered sin and death. Someone must have fooled you that Christians believe Jesus never sinned because of His divine personality. Jesus is true God and true Man, and He was born sinless because of His divinity. However, He did not fail any of the temptations as a perfect human.

Besides, Christians DO believe that Jesus died on the cross. Again, someone must have fooled you that Christians believe in the Koran verse denying Jesus’ passion with no theological reason. We Christians never believe that an act of illusion aiming to deceive a certain group of humans can be considered miraculous.

**
If Jews were after Jesus’ life…no surprise because Jews used to kill their own prophets.

I hope I answer the simple question asked repeatedly.

**

So what? Why did God supposedly make an exception when Jesus’ life was at stake? If God let Jews kill their own prophets, why did He supposedly prevent Jews from killing Jesus?

You have explained nothing so far. Try again.

 

[Angelos]

The quote he quoted was from the English translation of the Quran. Not the Bible. *And Maryam’s father was named Imran. *The Quran doesn’t confuse anything. That is your opinion.
americanrevert

I wish you could be intelligent enough to find out why I underscored the fact that your scripture desginated Mary as the daughter of someone rather than as the wife of someone. That post of mine aimed to address planten, who denied that the Koran never presented Mary as a virgin without a husband.

 

[dzheremi]

It is not hostility to you personally, only to your insistence that Christians here are somehow not treating you fairly or answering your questions only because their answers don’t match up with what you’d like them to be. Consider, for instance, this quote from your post:

no one yet in this forum can HONESTLY say and admit what they quote from their belief that their answers are correct.

This seems to suggest that if Christians were being HONEST, they would agree with the Islamic claims. So Christianity itself is merely a case of dishonesty, since apparently Muslims know our scriptures better than we do. Dream on! You don’t understand Christianity in the slightest, and when people who DO understand it (because they have dedicated their lives to it) honestly explain it to you, you accuse them of being vague, or dishonest, or whatever else you can throw at them to try to make it seem as though you actually care about “honesty”, not just making people who will NEVER BE MUSLIMS conform to Islam! You don’t care at all about honesty. Your posts provide ample evidence of that.

Here is a bit of Christian honesty for you: I would love it if you would join the Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox. That is what I would really like for you, more than anything. But I do not just come out and say this in my posts for two reasons: 1) I respect your right to believe whatever you want, and to disbelieve whatever you want; 2) I know that whether or not you come to believe in Christianity is not up to me or anyone else here, but up to the triune God Himself. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t try to help you along, as I’ve tried to help Sam and others here, but it is an admission of my own powerlessness to “argue” you into disowning your current religion. With man it is impossible, but all things are possible with God.

Related to this, I would like to emphasize the fact that I am not actually asking you to accept the truth of Christianity’s claims. I am asking you to accept them as Christian claims, in the same way that I accept as Islamic claims the idea of Muhammad’s prophethood, or Allah’s favor towards the Arabs specifically. I would not say that Muslims who claim these things are being dishonest or vague, but instead that they are sharing with us the tenets of their faith. I don’t agree with that faith, but I accept that it believes certain things are true. You do not do this with regard to Christianity, instead you repeat the claims that “no Christian can HONESTLY say” this or that, when in fact Christians are being completely faithful to their religion and honest by providing you with the answers that they do. That is why they’re Christians and not Muslims or something else.

In short: Please exercise charity and common sense in your posts. Interfaith dialogue is wortheless otherwise. Thanks.

 

[Americanrevert]

yes, but the quote was there and you quoted it as if to say what you are proving is correct according to the Quran. I simply answered to say that the father of Maryam was indeed Imran as stated in the verse.

americanrevert

(don’t know where Platen got the idea of maryam not being a virgin…says so clearly in the Quran.)

 

[Nickkname]

According to Islam, why was Jesus born of a Virgin? Mohammed is supposedly the greatest and last prophet, whereas Jesus was a prophet only for the Jews…yet in Islam, the fact that Jesus was born of a VIRGIN–a great miracle unprecedented in the history of mankind–seems to carry no particular significance. Doesn’t the fact that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary indicate that He is more than just another prophet?

(Now in all seriousness Mohammed probably picked up the story of the miraculous Virgin Birth of Christ from some Christians and then added it to the Quran during one of his hallucinations. And Christ was born of a Virgin, of course, because He is the Son of God eternally begotten from the Father, in fact, He is God made flesh). But what significance to Mohammedans ascribe to this event?

The virgin birth is meant to prove that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews. Speaking of Messiah, Muslims think He was a failure, He didn’t establish the everlasting peace and justice which He was prophesized to do in the Old Testament. Well, the problem with that thinking is, if Jesus didn’t do what the Messiah was meant to do, than He isn’t the Messiah - just another false messiah in the long line of false prophets and messiahs which Jews have to deal with throughout history. So the real question you should be asking Muslims is, was Jesus the Messiah or wasn’t He? Not based on the Koran, because He wasn’t prophesized there, but rather based on the Old Testament, where the prophesices of the Messiah are. Ask them that.