Islam and the Virgin Birth of Jesus

[Angelos]

yes, but the quote was there and you quoted it as if to say what you are proving is correct according to the Quran. I simply answered to say that the father of Maryam was indeed Imran as stated in the verse.

That is a clear historical mistake in the Koran.

 

[inJESUS]

Rational/Marysee/Counsel, is that you behind the curtain?

 

[Americanrevert]

by nickname…The virgin birth is meant to prove that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews. Speaking of Messiah, Muslims think He was a failure, He didn’t establish the everlasting peace and justice which He was prophesized to do in the Old Testament. Well, the problem with that thinking is, if Jesus didn’t do what the Messiah was meant to do, than He isn’t the Messiah - just another false messiah in the long line of false prophets and messiahs which Jews have to deal with throughout history. So the real question you should be asking Muslims is, was Jesus the Messiah or wasn’t He? Not based on the Koran, because He wasn’t prophesized there, but rather based on the Old Testament, where the prophesices of the Messiah are. Ask them that.

You misunderstand what Islam is as I have stated many times over. Muslims do not believe Jesus is a failure! He simply will finish what he is to finish when he descends for his second coming! Why lie against us? In the Quran is says that Jesus is the Messiah…so another lie against us? The story again is told in the Quran…so another lie against us? The old testament? Why ask about the old testament when the new testament cancels out everything according to the New Christian Laws??? you should ask yourself that question.

americanrevert

 

[Angelos]

and am still waiting…

Take a seat, for you will have to wait longer

 

[Angelos]

You misunderstand what Islam is as I have stated many times over. Muslims do not believe Jesus is a failure! He simply will finish what he is to finish when he descends for his second coming!
americanrevert

Why was Jesus’ mission supposedly disrupted? Why does He have to come back because He supposedly failed to accomplish His mission on earth the first time???

More, your supposition that Jesus will come a second time to finish His mission implies that Mohammad failed to accomplish what Jesus had previously failed to do.

Another question: will all those prophets prior to Jesus also come a second time to accomplish their incomplete mission?

 

[Nickkname]

You misunderstand what Islam is as I have stated many times over. Muslims do not believe Jesus is a failure! He simply will finish what he is to finish when he descends for his second coming! Why lie against us? In the Quran is says that Jesus is the Messiah…so another lie against us? The story again is told in the Quran…so another lie against us? The old testament? Why ask about the old testament when the new testament cancels out everything according to the New Christian Laws??? you should ask yourself that question.

americanrevert

You obviously don’t understand the relationship between the New and the Old Testament, so how can you understand Christ? In His own words, He came to fulfill, not to absolish. Yet you think He came to cancel out? You dare to ignore His own words? But of course Muslims believe the Koran is inerrant, just as we Christians believe the Bible is inerrant, so I guess there will always be that theological barrier between us.

 

[Americanrevert]

by angelos…Why was Jesus’ mission supposedly disrupted? Why does He have to come back because He supposedly failed to accomplish His mission on earth the first time???

More, your supposition that Jesus will come a second time to finish His mission implies that Mohammad failed to accomplish what Jesus had previously failed to do.

Another question: will all those prophets prior to Jesus also come a second time to accomplish their incomplete mission?

again, do not put words into what you think is correct to how we do not believe like you.

Your Bible can tell you that…if you can find the contradiction…I will be happy to show it to you .

Mohammad was victorious

The prophets have…Jesus is the one that is stated to be coming back in the Last Message to Mankind~~~no failure is mentioned!!!.

(am off to physiotherapy)

americanrevert

 

[dzheremi]

again, do not put words into what you think is correct to how we do not believe like you.

What does this sentence mean?

 

[Angelos]

again, do not put words into what you think is correct to how we do not believe like you.

Your Bible can tell you that…if you can find the contradiction…I will be happy to show it to you .

What kind of a contradiction are you talking about? The New Testament says that Jesus accomplished His mission on earth the first time He came. Jesus will come a second time with a totally different mission (as the Judge of our souls), not for the same mission that He supposedly failed to carry out the first time.

Mohammad was victorious

The reason why you assert only Mohammad to be victorious is associated with the Islamic notion of the former inept messengers.

The prophets have…Jesus is the one that is stated to be coming back in the Last Message to Mankind~~~no failure is mentioned!!!.
(am off to physiotherapy)
americanrevert

This means you believe only Jesus will come a second time to finish His alleged incomplete mission? Why is that?

Another related question: where is it written in the Koran that Jesus will come a second time and that the reason for His second coming will be His previous failure?

 

[Angelos]

What does this sentence mean?

it could be the direct translation of a verse in the Koran.

 

[planten]

I wish you could be intelligent enough to find out why I underscored the fact that your scripture desginated Mary as the daughter of someone rather than as the wife of someone. That post of mine aimed to address planten, who denied that the Koran never presented Mary as a virgin without a husband.

**angelos, I could not understand you. May be I will go back and see your post again. Then I will reply. Presently, please understand that the mother of Maryam was from the people of Imran who may be the father of Moses a.s. (Imra at Imran).

The husband of Maryam is not named in the Quran. But it is definitely described in the Quran that Maryam was given in the Charge (Kafaalat) twice. Once by he rmother to zakariyah sahib. The second time (Kafaalat) was when Maryam had grown up and was no more to live in the temple, she was handed over to some un-named person (Jospeh the carnter). Quran says that the marriage of Maryam was arranged by Allah Himself by the drawing of lots.

That was when she had no hope of any marriage. She was informed that not only she willbe married but she will have a grown up son (Ghulam) who will be a messenger for the people of Israel.

Most Muslims and and christians think that the good news to Maryam was for the birth of a son only without a father. Not so. It was a complete advanced news about the whole life of that son. That is more important than a son being born without the agency of a father.

Iwill get back to you again with all that. And I read the discussion that went on between you and the Analyser. You had been well advised by Analyser. But you kept on denying everything and in the end you had nothing to say that person was so and so.

What does that matter. It is important what the person is saying. And you do not agree to anything. You want that we agree to your angels when they visit Joseph the carpenter.But when we say that angel came to Muhammad, you say it is impossible. You see your prejudice. You want something for yoruself. But you want to deny the same thing to others. How can you progress spiritually ! You do not have any holy spirit with you.**

 

[inJESUS]

What does this sentence mean?

as an “American ex-Christian”, she is forgetting some of her english skills and everythimg related to the NT or 101 Christianity .

 

[inJESUS]

Why was Jesus’ mission supposedly disrupted? Why does He have to come back because He supposedly failed to accomplish His mission on earth the first time???

More, your supposition that Jesus will come a second time to finish His mission implies that Mohammad failed to accomplish what Jesus had previously failed to do.

Another question: will all those prophets prior to Jesus also come a second time to accomplish their incomplete mission?

don’t you understand Angelos? because Allah/Muhammad say so…why critical thinking?

 

[inJESUS]

And am still waiting for muslims to adress the OP instead of usual digressions/attacks on the Bible or Paul.

 

[dzheremi]

as an “American ex-Christian”, she is forgetting some of her english skills

Well, to be fair, inJESUS, I know plenty of Americans who speak very limited English or none at all. But I agree that it does call into question her representation of herself. Perhaps she thought that presenting herself as an American would endear her to the American majority of this board? I don’t know. I asked her a while ago if English was her first language or if she’d prefer to converse with me in Spanish or Russian, but she never responded. I don’t know what to make of that, but people can be sensitive about language issues, so I am not going to press the point (outside of bringing it up in this response…oops).

 

[planten]

It is not hostility to you personally, only to your insistence that Christians here are somehow not treating you fairly or answering your questions only because their answers don’t match …

Here is a bit of Christian honesty for you: I would love it if you would join the Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox. That is what I would really like for you, more than anything. But I do not just come out and say this in my posts for two reasons: 1) I respect your right to believe whatever you want, and to disbelieve whatever you want; 2) I know that whether or not you come to believe in Christianity is not up to me or anyone else here, but up to the triune God Himself. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t try to help you along, as I’ve tried to help Sam and others here, but it is an admission of my own powerlessness to “argue” you into disowning your current religion. With man it is impossible, but all things are possible with God.

Agreed. We Muslims feel same for you. What you said above is good and correct. It is nobody’s job to put faith into any one. It is all upto Allah. We only discuss things and pass the message peacefully.

Related to this, I would like to emphasize the fact that I am not actually asking you to accept the truth of Christianity’s claims. I am asking you to accept them as Christian claims, in the same way that I accept as Islamic claims the idea of Muhammad’s prophethood, or Allah’s favor towards the Arabs specifically. I would not say that Muslims who claim these things are being dishonest or vague, but instead that they are sharing with us the tenets of their faith. I don’t agree with that faith, but I accept that it believes certain things are true. You do not do this with regard to Christianity, instead you repeat the claims that “no Christian can HONESTLY say” this or that, when in fact Christians are being completely faithful to their religion and honest by providing you with the answers that they do. That is why they’re Christians and not Muslims or something else.

That is also alright. If you believe that Muslims have their points and may be true, it is o.k. We already believe in part of the bible NT. We are nearer to you than you are to us. WE never say that Devil was giving messages to Jesus. Please think over. We do not say such things and we allow for you what we ask for ourselves from you.

In short: Please exercise charity and common sense in your posts. Interfaith dialogue is wortheless otherwise. Thanks.

Sure. Good advice for every one here. But please note that we admit the truth of the christian faith. But the christians deny the truth of Islam from the very beginning, i.e. ourright denial.

 

[planten]

What kind of a contradiction are you talking about? The New Testament says that Jesus accomplished His mission on earth the first time He came. Jesus will come a second time with a totally different mission (as the Judge of our souls), not for the same mission that He supposedly failed to carry out the first time.

The reason why you assert only Mohammad to be victorious is associated with the Islamic notion of the former inept messengers.

None of the messengers of Allah were failure.Jesus was only a messenger of Allah and he did not fail.

This means you believe only Jesus will come a second time to finish His alleged incomplete mission? Why is that?

Another related question: where is it written in the Koran that Jesus will come a second time and that the reason for His second coming will be His previous failure?

** It is a wide ranging question. Cannot be answered in a few words. First we have to agree to a few basics:

1. All messengers have passed away. ( 3:144)
   3:144, Muhammad is not but a messenger. The messengers before him have passed away.

That means none of the prophets/ messengers is alive today.

1. Those who die cannot come back in this world again. (23:99-100)

Since Jesus has died a natural death, hecannot himself come back in this world again. There is no mention in the Quran about Jesus coming back again inthis world. However, there is a Hadith, a very authentic one, that says something that Ibne Maryam will definitely come. It is by that Hadith that Muslims believe that Jesus is alive and he will come again.

There is nothing about his coming again in the Quran. The Hadith also cannot be denied because it is something that teh prophet said with an oath of Allah.

I have to post that Hadith here then I can explain that.Until then please wait.**

 

[dzheremi]

Sure. Good advice for every one here. But please note that we admit the truth of the christian faith. But the christians deny the truth of Islam from the very beginning, i.e. ourright denial.

Thank you for your reasonable reply, Planten. I am glad you seem to understand what I am trying to say, even if the poster it is intended for might never reach that point.

I must take issue with the quoted portion above. Elsewhere in the post, you say that Muslims believe in parts of the NT. This may be so, but to Christians this is not acceptable. For us, we would say that you cannot accept only part of the truth without implicitly rejecting all of it. If I accept parts of the Quran, a few verses here and there that conform to what I already believe as a Christian, you would definitely not say that I am accepting the truth of Islam as a whole, right? In the great Abrahamic religions, there are no half-truths, just as there can be no half-Muslims, half-Christians, or half-Jews.

Also, we reject Islam outright for theological reasons. In Galatians 1:8 we are warned that we are not to accept any Gospel other than that which is given to us, even if it were to come from an angel of heaven. This means no Quran and no Islam.

 

[Angelos]

angelos, I could not understand you. May be I will go back and see your post again. Then I will reply. Presently, please understand that the mother of Maryam was from the people of Imran who may be the father of Moses a.s. (Imra at Imran).

Sorry dear planten, playing with words will not help you Muslims get rid of the historic mistakes in the Koran. No matter how you deny your own scripture and ignore the context of the verses, the problems will not vanish miraculously.

As for Maryam’s supposed relation to Imran, I have two objections to your argument:

a) The Koran does not say that Jesus’ mother Maryam was a descendant of Aaron/Moses.

b) The following verses of the Koran apparently remark that Maryam was Imran’s biological daughter:

Surah 3:35-36
(Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower! And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.

You have two options: either admit that the Koran mistakenly presents Maryam as Imran’s biological daughter OR keep supposing that Imran’s wife carried Maryam in her womb for more than a thousand years!

The husband of Maryam is not named in the Quran. But it is definitely described in the Quran that Maryam was given in the Charge (Kafaalat) twice. Once by he rmother to zakariyah sahib. The second time (Kafaalat) was when Maryam had grown up and was no more to live in the temple, she was handed over to some un-named person (Jospeh the carnter). Quran says that the marriage of Maryam was arranged by Allah Himself by the drawing of lots.

If you claim that Maryam was each time married when She was given in charge of a man, you must conclude that Maryam, according to the Koran, was a “virgin” with two husbands. Actually, the Koran says Maryam was given to the charge of a priest named Zaccharias because She was devoted to God by Her parents in the Temple.

Besides, you are confusing the canonical Gospels with the Koran. Your scripture does not say that Maryam’s marriage witth Joseph was arranged by God. According to the vague statement in the Koran, some Jews threw their pens to decide which one would be Mary’s guardian (not husband!):

Surah 3:44
Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).

According to another account in the Koran (this one contradicts the account in Surah 3), Mary had no male guardian or husband when She gave birth to Jesus and brought Him to Her folk. This was why people supposedly accused Her of bearing an illegitimate child:

Surah 19:27-28
Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing. O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

That was when she had no hope of any marriage. She was informed that not only she willbe married but she will have a grown up son (Ghulam) who will be a messenger for the people of Israel.

What do you mean by this? Where in the Koran does an angel tell Mary that She will be married and be the mother of a young boy? Is that the Surah Luke? LOL

Most Muslims and and christians think that the good news to Maryam was for the birth of a son only without a father. Not so. It was a complete advanced news about the whole life of that son. That is more important than a son being born without the agency of a father.

We Christians believe that the annunciation manifested Jesus’ true divine identity.

Besides, your scripture focuses on the miraculous nature of Jesus’ nativity whenever it relates the account of the annunciation.

Iwill get back to you again with all that. And I read the discussion that went on between you and the Analyser. You had been well advised by Analyser. But you kept on denying everything and in the end you had nothing to say that person was so and so.

This assertion of yours only manifests your biased and faulty view of the current debate.

What does that matter. It is important what the person is saying. And you do not agree to anything. You want that we agree to your angels when they visit Joseph the carpenter.But when we say that angel came to Muhammad, you say it is impossible. You see your prejudice. You want something for yoruself. But you want to deny the same thing to others. How can you progress spiritually ! You do not have any holy spirit with you.

An angel of the Lord appeared to me last night and said planten should convert to Christianity. Do you believe this? If yes, please convert to Christianity. If not, why don’t you believe that an angel appeared and talked to me whereas you believe an angel appeared to Mohammad?

 

[Angelos]

None of the messengers of Allah were failure.Jesus was only a messenger of Allah and he did not fail.

Since you Muslims believe that of Allah’s revelations, only the one given to Mohammad is authentic and reliable and that of all the Islamic messengers, only Mohammad could establish the so-called true religion of Allah on earth, your tenets/assertions imply that all the former messengers failed to found Islam.

**
It is a wide ranging question. Cannot be answered in a few words. First we have to agree to a few basics:

1. All messengers have passed away. ( 3:144)
   3:144, Muhammad is not but a messenger. The messengers before him have passed away.

That means none of the prophets/ messengers is alive today.

1. Those who die cannot come back in this world again. (23:99-100)**

Mainstream and traditional Islam dissents from you in that it attests to the bodily assumption of Jesus at the time of His passion.

Another problem with your argument is that it ignores the immortality of human soul. According to the Koran, even the Islamic warriors and martyrs are considered alive after their physical death.

**
Since Jesus has died a natural death, hecannot himself come back in this world again. There is no mention in the Quran about Jesus coming back again inthis world. However, there is a Hadith, a very authentic one, that says something that Ibne Maryam will definitely come. It is by that Hadith that Muslims believe that Jesus is alive and he will come again.**

Mainstream and traditional Islam denies that Jesus died a natural death.

Do you believe in that authentic Hadith? If you believe it, you will be contradicting your arguments and allegations stated so far.

**
There is nothing about his coming again in the Quran. The Hadith also cannot be denied because it is something that teh prophet said with an oath of Allah.

I have to post that Hadith here then I can explain that.Until then please wait.**

What is your conclusion? Here are your contradictory premises:

a) Jesus died a natural death. He is not alive.
b) There is an authentic Hadith that denies my premise a.
c) I cannot deny the Hadith that denies my premise a.

Conclusion: Planten needs a break.