Islam as a "religion" and not an Ideology.

[drac16]

We could start by asking where all the Dervishes went, and when they left.

I see Mullahs as political rallymen and Dervishes as religious spiritual men.

Dervishes still exist today; they’re part of the Mevlevi Order, which was founded by Rumi [may Allah have mercy on him]. I think they’re primarily from Turkey, but I could be wrong.

 

[jakasaki]

I’m wondering with this whole issue with Italy not recognizing Islam as a religion has anything to do with the Islamic end of times.

It is written that one of the major signs of end of times is the conquering of Rome by Islam.

 

[TEPO]

Sure, a dervish can be a sheikh or a khatib, but by no means is every dervish in a teaching position.

So in other words, Dervishes are generally looked down upon? Possibly as unintelligent or perhaps just a little too far ‘out there’ for mainstream Islam? I’m just trying to understand.

Perhaps Dervishes don’t fit the mold for what it takes to ‘spread’ Islam?

 

[drac16]

So in other words, Dervishes are generally looked down upon? Possibly as unintelligent or perhaps just a little too far ‘out there’ for mainstream Islam? I’m just trying to understand.

Yeah, I guess you could say that. The super-orthodox muslims oppose the use of musical instruments, whirling/dancing and, in some cases, dhikr beads. The thing with the whirling dervishes is that they consider it a form of worship-- not a dance. To them, the spinning is done as a result of spiritual ecstasy. The ritual was started by Rumi [may Allah have mercy on him] and he never thought of it as a dance. According to Leslie Wines’ book on Rumi’s life, he would often lean against a pillar in a mosque, would begin to improvise poetry and would spin as a result of the ecstasy flowing through him.

I’m not altogether orthodox sunni in my understanding of the shariah. No doubt, some sufi orders have gone too far in their innovations, but I do think traditional sunnis are, at times, too rigid.

 

[doormouse73]

Have you ever known a Dervish?

Yeah, I guess you could say that. The super-orthodox muslims oppose the use of musical instruments, whirling/dancing and, in some cases, dhikr beads. The thing with the whirling dervishes is that they consider it a form of worship-- not a dance. To them, the spinning is done as a result of spiritual ecstasy. The ritual was started by Rumi [may Allah have mercy on him] and he never thought of it as a dance. According to Leslie Wines’ book on Rumi’s life, he would often lean against a pillar in a mosque, would begin to improvise poetry and would spin as a result of the ecstasy flowing through him.

I’m not altogether orthodox sunni in my understanding of the shariah. No doubt, some sufi orders have gone too far in their innovations, but I do think traditional sunnis are, at times, too rigid.

I’m not altogether orthodox sunni in my understanding of the shariah.

shariah was not given by God it is man made…

No doubt, some sufi orders have gone too far in their innovations,

could you give us a couple of examples please…

but I do think traditional sunnis are, at times, too rigid.

same as above,a couple of examples please…

 

[TEPO]

Yeah, I guess you could say that. The super-orthodox muslims oppose the use of musical instruments, whirling/dancing and, in some cases, dhikr beads. The thing with the whirling dervishes is that they consider it a form of worship-- not a dance. To them, the spinning is done as a result of spiritual ecstasy. The ritual was started by Rumi [may Allah have mercy on him] and he never thought of it as a dance. According to Leslie Wines’ book on Rumi’s life, he would often lean against a pillar in a mosque, would begin to improvise poetry and would spin as a result of the ecstasy flowing through him.

I’m not altogether orthodox sunni in my understanding of the shariah. No doubt, some sufi orders have gone too far in their innovations, but I do think traditional sunnis are, at times, too rigid.

It seems to me, and this is just my honest opinion, that spirituality in Islam is suppressed by an overpowering idealism. Through this, it ceases to be a “religion” and takes on the true role of an Ideology.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Please keep in mind the rules for inter-faith dialogue.

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**

 

[TylerJordan]

I don’t know. I have a lot to study and learn about my religion. Much less theirs.

 

[TEPO]

I don’t know. I have a lot to study and learn about my religion. Much less theirs.

Personally, I think Dervishes are cool.

…if I was a Muslim, I would become one.

 

[Ontheway]

It seems to me that in discussing differences (real or not) between Islamic religion and ideology, it would be useful to keep in mind their idea of “ummah”, the entire community of the muslim faithful, as well as that of the caliphate. Caliph, if I understand it correctly, means “successor” to Mohammed. He is the religious as well as political leader of the Islamic world. One way or anther, most Muslims long for the caliphate and a single Caliph who is the spiritual leader who also uphold the Sharia law.

Discussing separation of Islam from Sharia or the Caliphate may seem puzzling to many Muslims. Although they live in nation-states, this development is very recent for most of them. Muslims are Muslims, before they are Algerians, Egyptians, or Somalis. It is Ummah, the world of Islam, that seems to be first and foremost in their minds.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Is there a dichotomy between ideology and religion now?

 

[TEPO]

Is there a dichotomy between ideology and religion now?

There has to be. They aren’t the same thing at all.

A religion is a set of beliefs involving a creator/s, spirituality, and morals. An ideology is a system or movement that dictates laws, government, taxes, military, etc., in order to suit that particular movements philosophy…

An Ideology may or may not be linked to a God-figure as one part of their philosophy, but its main function is applying Laws, regulation and enforcement.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Is there a dichotomy between ideology and religion now?

Sounds like a tactic of the Republican pro-war crowd. If we can classify Islam as an “ideology” instead of a “religion” it makes it easier to attack them, literally and figuratively, invade thier countries, Obama’s “kill list” that drones thier women and children…
We’re probably going to hear more of this…

 

[TEPO]

Sounds like a tactic of the Republican pro-war crowd. If we can classify Islam as an “ideology” instead of a “religion” it makes it easier to attack them, literally and figuratively, invade thier countries, Obama’s “kill list” that drones thier women and children…
We’re probably going to hear more of this…

Obama has a “kill list” that includes women and children? Why doesn’t this surprise me.

 

[Kirovsakya]

There has to be. They aren’t the same thing at all.

A religion is a set of beliefs involving a creator/s, spirituality, and morals.

An ideology is a system or movement that dictates laws, government, taxes, military, etc., in order to suit that particular movements philosophy…

An Ideology may or may not be linked to a God-figure as one part of their philosophy, but its main function is applying Laws, regulation and enforcement.

During its long history, the RCC has been and done all of those things.

Do you call the Latin Church “religion” or “ideology”?

Think before you answer.
.

 

[TEPO]

During its long history, the RCC has been and done all of those things.

Do you call the Latin Church “religion” or “ideology”?

Think before you answer.
.

 

[TEPO]

During its long history, the RCC has been and done all of those things.

Do you call the Latin Church “religion” or “ideology”?

Think before you answer.
.

I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with Ideologies. Democracy, after all, is also an ideology. There have been times and places throughout history where ideological change and progression were very much needed. There have been times where ideological stillness was also needed.

…what I’m saying is that here in the West, Islamic Idealism does not fit into our modern culture. It’s too ‘all-encompassing’, and the religion parts seem to be inseparable from the political and governmental aspects of it. Even Catholicism has been able to divide its social doctrines from its religious teachings by creating CST. usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/seven-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching.cfm

But the Catholic Church does not have its own laws, taxes, government, police or military as parts of doctrine. Therefore it is not truly an ideology. It is a religion. Islam, with its Shariah Law, is an ideology. Very simple.

…and just like Communist ideologies, Islamic Law, as an ideology in and of itself, threatens our current democratic order as well as our constitutions. Throughout the entire Western world.

So do you believe Islam with its inseperable laws to be more of an ideology or a religion? What’s your take, and why?

 

[Kirovsakya]

I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with Ideologies. Democracy, after all, is also an ideology. There have been times and places throughout history where ideological change and progression were very much needed. There have been times where ideological stillness was also needed.

…what I’m saying is that here in the West, Islamic Idealism does not fit into our modern culture. It’s too ‘all-encompassing’, and the religion parts seem to be inseparable from the political and governmental aspects of it. Even Catholicism has been able to divide its social doctrines from its religious teachings by creating CST. usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/seven-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching.cfm

But the Catholic Church does not have its own laws, taxes, government, police or military as parts of doctrine. Therefore it is not truly an ideology. It is a religion. Islam, with its Shariah Law, is an ideology. Very simple.

…and just like Communist ideologies, Islamic Law, as an ideology in and of itself, threatens our current democratic order as well as our constitutions. Throughout the entire Western world.

So do you believe Islam with its inseparable laws to be more of an ideology or a religion? What’s your take, and why?

My take is that Islam, at its heart, is an expression of religious faith. Over the years, “divinely inspired” legalism, politics, conquest of foreign lands, plunder of resources, conversion by force, were added to the mix.

Sound familiar? It should, because the RCC invented all that, in the Name of our Lord, no less.

I’m not Muslim. If you’re serious about learning about Islam, you need to get yourself to a local mosque. If you still live in SoCal, you will be surprised at how many of your neighbors attend services regularly. I guarantee that you already know some them by name. Ask THEM to explain how Islam conforms to your modern Western categories. Or better yet, ask them to register with Catholic Answers and contribute to our discussion here.

 

[TEPO]

It seems to me that in discussing differences (real or not) between Islamic religion and ideology, it would be useful to keep in mind their idea of “ummah”, the entire community of the muslim faithful, as well as that of the caliphate. Caliph, if I understand it correctly, means “successor” to Mohammed. He is the religious as well as political leader of the Islamic world. One way or anther, most Muslims long for the caliphate and a single Caliph who is the spiritual leader who also uphold the Sharia law.

Discussing separation of Islam from Sharia or the Caliphate may seem puzzling to many Muslims. Although they live in nation-states, this development is very recent for most of them. Muslims are Muslims, before they are Algerians, Egyptians, or Somalis. It is Ummah, the world of Islam, that seems to be first and foremost in their minds.

Oh, I see -and because of “Ummah”, Dervishes are few and far in between probably because the Mullahs look down upon them. . It seems like such a shame to me because Dervishes could be considered similar to say, Franciscan Monks, or even Jesuits.

If they were as popular as Mullahs, I think the relationship between Islam and the West would be a much better one.

 

[TEPO]

My take is that Islam, at its heart, is an expression of religious faith. Over the years, “divinely inspired” legalism, politics, conquest of foreign lands, plunder of resources, conversion by force, were added to the mix.

Sound familiar? It should, because the RCC invented all that, in the Name of our Lord, no less.

You are unfortunately incorrect sir. Romanization began long before Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire. It then continued afterwards, however the Romans were known for respecting the people’s that they acquired. They didn’t go around slaughtering villages, rather they offered full benefits which were the same as those offered to natural born Roman citizens.

Many Greeks were later slaughtered by the Ottoman Empire though. Genocide was committed there.