Islam as a "religion" and not an Ideology.

[Ontheway]

My take is that Islam, at its heart, is an expression of religious faith. Over the years, “divinely inspired” legalism, politics, conquest of foreign lands, plunder of resources, conversion by force, were added to the mix.

Sound familiar? It should, because the RCC invented all that, in the Name of our Lord, no less.

I’m not Muslim. If you’re serious about learning about Islam, you need to get yourself to a local mosque. If you still live in SoCal, you will be surprised at how many of your neighbors attend services regularly. I guarantee that you already know some them by name. Ask THEM to explain how Islam conforms to your modern Western categories. Or better yet, ask them to register with Catholic Answers and contribute to our discussion here.

All this from one whose heritage is in the Byzantium? Your comments are …unacceptable.
When did the RCC “invent all that”? During the years of persecution? Or was it when it conquered western Europe? My recollection is that it was the barbarians who conquered Rome and converted to Christianity.
At the same time, Byzantium treated its own Christians in the Middle East and Africa so well that when the Muslims invaded, all the local Christians supported the Muslims and not their Orthodox Christian masters from Constantinople.
So, who invented what and when?
And what about those kind-hearted Muslims and their methods of conversion? Who forced whom and when?
Before making at hominem statements such as the one above, a little reading and study might be in order.

 

[Ontheway]

Oh, I see -and because of “Ummah”, Dervishes are few and far in between probably because the Mullahs look down upon them. . It seems like such a shame to me because Dervishes could be considered similar to say, Franciscan Monks, or even Jesuits.

If they were as popular as Mullahs, I think the relationship between Islam and the West would be a much better one.

I am not familiar with the Dervish controversy and my comments were meant as a reminder that for most Muslims, Islamic religion and “ideology” or political systems, or Sharia, are one and the same. This is because of the “Ummah” concept.

This is the reason why a Muslim in North Africa gets all bent out of shape when something happens to a Muslim in India. They are all part of the land of Islam, the way we once belonged to Christendom.

 

[TEPO]

I am not familiar with the Dervish controversy and my comments were meant as a reminder that for most Muslims, Islamic religion and “ideology” or political systems, or Sharia, are one and the same. This is because of the “Ummah” concept.

This is the reason why a Muslim in North Africa gets all bent out of shape when something happens to a Muslim in India. They are all part of the land of Islam, the way we once belonged to Christendom.

Well I do thank you for teaching me about it anyways… I’d never heard of it before. Also Caliph is new to me.

 

[Kirovsakya]

You are unfortunately incorrect sir. Romanization began long before Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire. It then continued afterwards, however the Romans were known for respecting the people’s that they acquired. They didn’t go around slaughtering villages, rather they offered full benefits which were the same as those offered to natural born Roman citizens.

Many Greeks were later slaughtered by the Ottoman Empire though. Genocide was committed there.

I’m not Muslim. If you’re serious about learning about Islam, you need to get yourself to a local mosque. If you still live in SoCal, you will be surprised at how many of your neighbors attend services regularly. I guarantee that you already know some them by name. Ask THEM to explain how Islam conforms to your modern Western categories. Or better yet, ask them to register with Catholic Answers and contribute to our discussion here.

 

[Kirovsakya]

All this from one whose heritage is in the Byzantium? Your comments are unacceptable.
(and so forth…)

My heritage is Roman Catholic, so we’re discussing our common heritage. But I’m curious now. Exactly what does “Traditional Catholic” mean to you? To whose tradition do you actually adhere?

 

[TEPO]

I’m not Muslim. If you’re serious about learning about Islam, you need to get yourself to a local mosque. If you still live in SoCal, you will be surprised at how many of your neighbors attend services regularly. I guarantee that you already know some them by name. Ask THEM to explain how Islam conforms to your modern Western categories. Or better yet, ask them to register with Catholic Answers and contribute to our discussion here.

Okay, that’s much better.

Actually, at the Irvine Spectrum today, I saw dozens upon dozens of Muslims. I could make flyers directing them to this thread.

…but even then, I’m sure that they will agree that there is no separation between Islam and Shariah Law. Surely they all want it.

 

[gracepoole]

You are unfortunately incorrect sir. Romanization began long before Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire. It then continued afterwards, however the Romans were known for respecting the people’s that they acquired. They didn’t go around slaughtering villages, rather they offered full benefits which were the same as those offered to natural born Roman citizens.

Well, except the slaves.

 

[TEPO]

Well, except the slaves.

True. Once a slave always a slave back then. The Romans didn’t free the slaves.

But the term “slave” itself stems from “Slav” as in the Slavic people. The Greeks used to sell Slavs to the Arabs long before Romanization. I know, because as a half-Slav myself, I’ve researched my own history. The term “Slave” derives from my ancient ancestors.

On the other side I’m English, Irish and Scottish… Those were some of the first Protestants unfortunately, with a family history book telling the story about having rock throwing fights with Catholics back in the day.

 

[Kirovsakya]

Okay, that’s much better.

Actually, at the Irvine Spectrum today, I saw dozens upon dozens of Muslims. I could make flyers directing them to this thread.

…but even then, I’m sure that they will agree that there is no separation between Islam and Shariah Law. Surely they all want it.

Don’t make the mistake of trying to guess about what someone else believes or wants. The mass majority of Muslims in the OC are SoCal born & bred. Most have not yet been marked with a tattoo on the forearm. Let them speak for themselves, in direct response to your questions.

How often are Roman Catholics and their beliefs misrepresented by mega-church Evangelicals? That’s how protestants roll. Stay above that. Report your actual findings here.

Islamic Center
2 Truman
Irvine, CA 92620

 

[Holly3278]

I think Islam most definitely is a religion.

 

[TEPO]

Don’t make the mistake of trying to guess about what someone else believes or wants. The mass majority of Muslims in the OC are SoCal born & bred. Most have not yet been marked with a tattoo on the forearm. Let them speak for themselves, in direct response to your questions.

How often are Roman Catholics and their beliefs misrepresented by mega-church Evangelicals? That’s how protestants roll. Stay above that. Report your actual findings here.

Islamic Center
2 Truman
Irvine, CA 92620 ‎

But what about Taqiyya? How do I know what they’re telling me is the truth? Odds are, if the women are wearing head-coverings (as they all were), that they are all pretty orthodox in their beliefs.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

All this from one whose heritage is in the Byzantium? Your comments are …unacceptable.
When did the RCC “invent all that”? During the years of persecution? Or was it when it conquered western Europe? My recollection is that it was the barbarians who conquered Rome and converted to Christianity.
At the same time, Byzantium treated its own Christians in the Middle East and Africa so well that when the Muslims invaded, all the local Christians supported the Muslims and not their Orthodox Christian masters from Constantinople.
So, who invented what and when?
And what about those kind-hearted Muslims and their methods of conversion? Who forced whom and when?
Before making at hominem statements such as the one above, a little reading and study might be in order.

Nice post:thumbsup:

I thought I was the only one that caught that incorrect RCC invention comment from our Orthodox poster.

Religions that mix their religious doctrines with their political structures is not something new. The Pagans, Greeks, Romans, Jews and now Islam includes it political powers mixed with it’s religious doctrines, thus “Shira law” is excercised and enforced by both secular laws supported by the Islam faith.

The ideology of secular powers making laws to enforce the religion of Islam upon societies is the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam by itself cannot stand alone. Islam requires it’s secular powers to be Muslim in order to enforce Islam upon their society or the societies which Muslims who are in pursuit to convert to Islam. Which we are experiencing today.

Islam is a religion that believes in Allah who is one. A Muslim is one who submits to Islam when in a state of surrendering to the teachings and (slave) submission to Allah.

Islam is a religion that adheres to it’s five pillars of faith, 1.profession of faith 2.ritual prayer 3. giving alms to the poor 4. fasting 5. making a pilgrimage (haj) to Mecca at least once in their life time.

The Ideologies that influence the practice of Islam can vary from liberalism to extremist to fanatics. In all of these cases Islam mixture with it’s secular governing powers produces all of the above.

Take away the secular powers of Islam, all you have is a religion of Islam in pursuit of taking away the secular powers in power in order to enforce the religion of Islam.

Islam mains objective is to convert the world to become Muslim = to surrender (Islam) to Allah.

The Orthodox became an Imperial Church under their Eastern Emperors, and some Orthodox Church’s still remain governed by their Eastern political secular powers. The Western Church ordained a Western Emperor which began a long history of secular powers trying to influence the Church. Today the Western Catholic Church is free from secular powers and has returned to the pre-constantinople period when the Roman Bishop was free from secular powers yet under persecution.

**The Roman Catholic position in regards to the mixing of religion with secular powers is; “Give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God”.

Islam mixes it’s Ceasar’s with it’s religion. Islam does not practice mysticsim or it is never popular. There was a time when Islam was pursuing such mystics, but these were killed off, because their mystics were revealing a diety contrary to Islam. Islam denies God the Holy Spirit, therefore they have no spiritual aspects of their faith into the mysteries of God.

Islam is a surrendering to Allah excercising the five pillars of their faith. Some Muslims pursue the Koran’s heavenly reward by conquering societies and converting them to Islam via political secular powers. History proves Islam’s success by both military means of force or by peaceful means when Muslims enter a societies politics who become the majority and gain the power to change existing laws to Shira laws. The one that proves Islam’s success is by out populating Christian societies. When Christians practice abortion laws and contraception laws in their societies.**

As one Muslim religious leader spoke in public to the Pope’s delegate a Bishop; “by your liberal laws we Muslims will conquer you”.

Peace be with you

 

[TEPO]

I think Islam most definitely is a religion.

What qualifies something as a “religion”?

 

[Holly3278]

What qualifies something as a “religion”?

Well, here is a link to the definition of a religion from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

I think Islam fits that definition, don’t you?

 

[Kirovsakya]

As one Muslim religious leader spoke in public to the Pope’s delegate a Bishop; “by your liberal laws we Muslims will conquer you”.

Peace be with you

Nice post.

By your liberal laws, Episcopalians will conquer you.

 

[Kirovsakya]

But what about Taqiyya? How do I know what they’re telling me is the truth? Odds are, if the women are wearing head-coverings (as they all were), that they are all pretty orthodox in their beliefs.

What about “Just War” and “Capital Punishment”?

Odds mean nothing. Costumes mean less. Mohamed Atta wore no head covering.

Stay away from the women.

 

[TEPO]

Well, here is a link to the definition of a religion from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

I think Islam fits that definition, don’t you?

Well, sort of I guess… But it also fits the definition of an “Ideology” because of its Shariah Law requirements. Why would a religion need its own government, laws, taxes, military, etc…? IMHO, that goes way beyond just being a simple “religion”…

I think that any group that feels the need to form its own government, literally, ceases to become simply a religion and becomes an Ideology of its own. Stripped of protection of ‘religious freedom’. I think that it puts our constitution and our freedom in jeopardy. That’s how I feel after studying history… I’m just thinking about my grandchildren.

 

[TEPO]

Of course I could just move to Italy, where Islam is officially considered NOT a religion.

 

[Kirovsakya]

Well, sort of I guess… But it also fits the definition of an “Ideology” because of its Shariah Law requirements. Why would a religion need its own government, laws, taxes, military, etc…? IMHO, that goes way beyond just being a simple “religion”…

I think that any group that feels the need to form its own government, literally, ceases to become simply a religion and becomes an Ideology of its own. Stripped of protection of ‘religious freedom’. I think that it puts our constitution and our freedom in jeopardy. That’s how I feel after studying history… I’m just thinking about my grandchildren.

What does Islam call its own infallible leader, magisterium, catechism, cannon law, crusades and swiss guard?
.

 

[TEPO]

What about “Just War” and “Capital Punishment”?

Odds mean nothing. Costumes mean less. Mohamed Atta wore no head covering.

… Mohammed Atta was a male.