Islam as a "religion" and not an Ideology.

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What does Islam call its own infallible leader, magisterium, catechism, cannon law, crusades and swiss guard?
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We’re talking about something completely different now. I don’t go to jail for not following the catechism. According to shariah Law, a Muslim would be tried and convicted by other Muslims for breaking their laws. I talked to a Muslim the other day who wanted Shariah law to be put into place in the UK -for Muslims only…! :eek: that’s how it starts, they get the Shariah law for themselves and then more immigrate there. Next thing you know they’ve got their own sub-government.

I disagree with that. In the US, there are only State and Federal governments… That’s all. Anything else, and our constitution becomes completely worthless.

…but as it is, the laws of Vatican City only apply to those who live there. That’s a huge difference from what were talking about here.
 
Nice post.👍

By your liberal laws, Episcopalians will conquer you.
Thx, but the Muslim religious leader was speaking of all Western free society Governmental laws not the Catholic Church specifically. Besides I don’t think the Catholic Church’s position on abortion is liberal it is by divine law not secular law. So the Episcopalians and those Orthodox who approve contraception, and divorce will not conquer God’s divine laws.

Peace be with you
 
What qualifies something as a “religion”?
The CCC recognizes Islam as a non-catholic religion. When Islam first entered history 700 years after the resurrection of Jesus, the Catholic Church dubbed Islam at first a christian heresy under Muhammadism, because it reveals an Arian heretical view of Jesus.

The Pope is the bishop of Rome. Italy has it’s own secular government apart from the Catholic Church . If Italy does not recognize Islam as a religion, then it maybe from it’s constitution laws that labels it so, inorder to keep Islam from entering the populace. If Italy’s constitution recognizes a religion, then it may have to accept Islam to take root in it’s society?

Just a thought.🙂
 
…source please. I’ve never seen the word “Islam” used in the Catechism before.
Sure:) Islam is recorded in the subject index of the CCC that deals with The Church and non-Christian religions see CCC 842

CCC 841 “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims…”
 
…source please. I’ve never seen the word “Islam” used in the Catechism before.
It doesn’t use the word “Islam” in it but as Gabriel of 12 says, it does use the word “Muslims”.
Sure:) Islam is recorded in the subject index of the CCC that deals with The Church and non-Christian religions see CCC 842

CCC 841 “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims…”
 
Gabriel of 12;10849853:
Sure:) Islam is recorded in the subject index of the CCC that deals with The Church and non-Christian religions see CCC 842

CCC 841 “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims…”
It doesn’t use the word “Islam” in it but as Gabriel of 12 says, it does use the word “Muslims”.
Exactly. There is no mention of Islam at all in the Catechism, while the Muslims, who are our brothers and sisters in the plan of salvation are. Muslims are people, and as fellow worshippers of the one true God, they are our friends and our brothers and sisters in faith.

There is a clear distinction between Islam and Muslims.

…but it is Islam that I’m talking about -which is an Ideology and not a religion. The Catechism does not state whether Islam is either an Ideology or a religion. Therefore, Catholics are free to decide for themselves.

…there is nothing ‘wrong’ with believing in an Ideology per se. Even if one also worships God.
 
Exactly. There is no mention of Islam at all in the Catechism, while the Muslims, who are our brothers and sisters in the plan of salvation are. Muslims are people, and as fellow worshippers of the one true God, they are our friends and our brothers and sisters in faith.

There is a clear distinction between Islam and Muslims.

…but it is Islam that I’m talking about -which is an Ideology and not a religion. The Catechism does not state whether Islam is either an Ideology or a religion. Therefore, Catholics are free to decide for themselves.
Surrendering to the supreme power. Reveals that state of surrender is called Islam, and a person who acts in such a way as to cause that state is called a Muslim.

Not meaning to split hairs here; but there are different types of Muslims who interpret Islam from different traditions for example Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims, both adhere to Islam from different traditions and interpretations. Muslim identifies one who lives in a state of Islam = surrending to the supreme power. In fact one Muslim revealed to me that there are 7 different interpretations of the Koran, but they are all Muslims.

Iam not debating your freedom of expression here. I just hope to offer you a perspective from what the title of Muslim identifies itself to Islam.

The subject index records the word Islam. The CCC addresses all different Muslims who hold to Islam without mentioning the word Islam. Again Muslim is the person living in the state of Islam = surrender to the supreme power.

The distinction cannot be made from Islam, but a distinction can be made from different Muslims practicing Islam.
peace be with you
 
Surrendering to the supreme power. Reveals that state of surrender is called Islam, and a person who acts in such a way as to cause that state is called a Muslim.

Not meaning to split hairs here; but there are different types of Muslims who interpret Islam from different traditions for example Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims, both adhere to Islam from different traditions and interpretations. Muslim identifies one who lives in a state of Islam = surrending to the supreme power. In fact one Muslim revealed to me that there are 7 different interpretations of Islam, but they are all Muslims.

Iam not debating your freedom of expression here. I just hope to offer you a perspective from what the title of Muslim identifies itself to Islam.

The subject index records the word Islam. The CCC addresses all different Muslims who hold to Islam without mentioning the word Islam. Again Muslim is the person living in the state of Islam = surrender to the supreme power.

The distinction cannot be made from Islam, but a distinction can be made from different Muslims practicing Islam.
peace be with you
I do believe that there is a religious aspect to Islam, after all if there wasn’t, then Muslims wouldn’t be part of the plan of salvation… They wouldn’t believe in the one true God like we Catholics do.

My only point is that the law parts overtake the spiritual parts, making it less of a religion and more of an ideology -and this has been a development. I’d say that Catholicism is more of a religion with some ideologies, while Islam is more of an Ideology with some religiosity.

…again, this is all my opinion and I’m just looking for feedback. Anyways, its getting late. I’ll check back tommorrow for anymore insight on the subject.

Peace,
TEPO. 🙂
 
I do believe that there is a religious aspect to Islam
It comes back to what I was getting around to earlier, its religious indoctrination. However, this progressed over the centuries. The fact that some would suggest “I want to do this, or I like and believe in what I am doing”. should be no surprise, nor is it historically. Nor should this be understood that because one whole heartedly believes in what they are doing, it is in fact moral, ethical and socially acceptable. Western society by large has extended its hand to Islam to live free under its laws. Islam has intended to indoctrinate by various methods to consume the Freedoms of the West and East for that matter.

This is the flaw in Islam which is intent on imposing its will on others who have no use for it mind-set. As the Islamic percentage increase’s in population its imposed will begins with the Religion of Peace demands. This really isn’t rocket science.

When wild ideals such as this are allowed to incubate and breed unchecked it really shouldn’t be a surprise of the outcomes. Look at Russia, Germany, China, now look at the middle east and for example Egypt and its present situation.

This comes back to your point of who’s leading and teaching.

The fact that some become fanatical and others do not doesn’t change the religious indoctrination, it changes how each individual is rooted within it. Which come’s back to the tax situation which resulted in a attempted suppression of Islam as a religion in Italy. Islam wasn’t rejected as a religion because their faith isn’t rooted in a belief of god. It is socially unacceptable to Italy in that it does not conform to the established laws. It never does, it does not believe in them but to follow till they overcome them [Sharia Law] and they are viewed as temporary obstacles.

When man replaces God, then men follow the strongest leader, and what becomes acceptable is exactly what he desires, nothing more, nothing less, and its always made into law for the leader is the leader right wrong or indifferent, he leads through power, strength, thus control. And if he wins public favor all the better, its exactly what happened with Napoleon. Isn’t this what happened with Mohammed?

And to the victor go the spoils. A dilemma man has with himself and in correctly understanding Grace, without it we are “animals”. And when you take man by large out of his comfort zone, through the security of shelter/home, food, medicine and basic needs. he will look out for his own best interest, never think “we”: are that civil, indoctrination at this point is just as quick as in the military. There’s a fine line between barbarism and civil and the thinking confirms itself, barbarism does not define itself as barbaric and becomes insulted that you should suggest such as thing, which is why they know not how to stop being barbaric, and suggest “I like what I do” Its called “denial”.

The world vision of a united world under the rule of Allah is a very real ideal, make no mistake about it. As we see that’s what Islam and its strongest leaders chose by large to impose. And again the fact that individuals become radicalized is “no mystery” it can occur very quickly, weeks. In weeks everything you thought you believed and knew, could go out the window. We as individuals will think so much of ourselves which leads one to believe “that would never happen to me”. And how wrong they have been historically.

You don’t receive titles such as Religion of Peace because you demand it, but because its a reality and you live and earn it. But isn’t that the whole issue with this indoctrination, it has no plan to compromise but to “rule” and dictate its beliefs which already deemed other corrupt and have little desire to acknowledge they actually may be “wrong”. Well, how did the Germans think of themselves under Nazi rule? Do you believe they thought what they were doing was wrong?

The assumption is America can be defeated from within. I say that’s contingent on a passive attitude. That’s changing and by a few different factors, one is awareness, two is the economic situation, which then basic needs can no longer be taken for granted, thus the value of the very freedoms established here become front and center. And of course by the continued attacks on American soil by Islams radical agenda.

These visions, they are not uncommon with Christianity either. Should the apostolic church’s unite you may hear that chant “no salvation outside the church” become very real once again. We are all responsible to safeguard from such insanity, and I do mean all. Unfortunately Islam by large has engaged already in a agenda. They want to bring Peace to the world through violence and restriction of Freedom. Ban the Bible, forced conversion, rape, honor killing, no tolerance etc.

Islams plan of mankinds salvation is world rule and complete conversion to Islam ultimately. If you have evidence of contrary, I’d love to see it. That said there are Islamic scholars who are aware of all this and publishing and finding a large following in the Islamic community. Everyone is not subjected to the indoctrination, by large such as in Egypt these good muslims are silenced like we witnessed at the University their by the MB.

Understanding what is going on in your own community helps for sure. It would have helped in Boston. It will help in the future.

Its all a “radical” agenda. The difference is in degree not kind, as in how to impose Sharia Law. Now if you consider Sharia Law not radical then we would have to define Sharia Law and dissect it to see how indeed it plays out with “all” mankind. for example those who could care less about Mohammed or have other beliefs.
 
TEPO;10849957]I do believe that there is a religious aspect to Islam, after all if there wasn’t, then Muslims wouldn’t be part of the plan of salvation…
Christian salvation is in contradiction to Islam’s salvation; Islam’s Mahdi is greater than their prophet Jesus, their Mahdi brings war in order to establish peace.

The Christian book of revelation reveals a religion who harlots herself with secular powers who obeys the false prophet who is anti-christ (The Islamic AntiChrist by Joel Richardson a former Muslim)
They wouldn’t believe in the one true God like we Catholics do.
Even demons believe in one God and tremble.
My only point is that the law parts overtake the spiritual parts, making it less of a religion and more of an ideology -and this has been a development.
Islam has no spiritual parts. The worship of Allah takes on an Old Testament practice from the outer acts of Muslim who reveal a slave like attitude (Islam) in prayer that expresses worship to Allah from the outer practices of Islam not the inner spiritual side of man. To enter into the mystical aspects of their diety, would change Islam to claim a Christian faith in the Holy Spirit which is never Islam.
I’d say that Catholicism is more of a religion with some ideologies, while Islam is more of an Ideology with some religiosity.
I would be interested in how Italy’s written law, reads that does not recognize Islam as a religion. They may be on to something here?

In the U.S Newt Gingrich pushed legislation through Congress that our Constitution will never allow Shirah law forced upon Americans. But if Muslims are voted in our high offices by a majority, Muslims can and will change our constitutional laws in a whim.

The Koran reveals Allah allowing lie-ing and deception a good virtue to practice by Muslims form their doctrine of Kithman.

Kithman is a doctrine of Islam that allows the practices of deceit and dishonesty as being a good virtue for Muslims.

Shi’ite Muslims practice the doctrine of Kithman = hiding the truth (commanded to conceal ones belief’s)
“One who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us”

“You belong to a religion that who so ever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him”

TAQIYA = Is another foundation for deception in Islam

Taqiya (deception) is allowed until the day of resurrection, Both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims practice Taqiya

The Judeo/Christian God calls lie-ing a mortal sin.

Apart from God being one and the creater of all, Christians and Muslims view of God differ rapidly.
 
In the U.S Newt Gingrich pushed legislation through Congress that our Constitution will never allow Shirah law forced upon Americans. But if Muslims are voted in our high offices by a majority, Muslims can and will change our constitutional laws in a whim.
To an extent this is occurring. Derogatory statements, cartoons against Mohammed etc.

gopusa.com/commentary/2013/06/10/kincaid-people-power-against-the-department-of-justice/

Submission

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (Muhammad, peace be upon him) as a judge in all disputes between them, and find no resistance against your decisions, and accept (the decisions) with full submission.” [Holy Quran 4:65]

“It is not fitting for the believing man nor for the believing woman, that whenever Allah and His Messenger have decided any matter, that they should have any other opinion.”
[Holy Quran 33:36]

If fact your opinion is persecution of Mohammed. “Submission”
 
To an extent this is occurring. Derogatory statements, cartoons against Mohammed etc.

gopusa.com/commentary/2013/06/10/kincaid-people-power-against-the-department-of-justice/

Interesting commentary, 👍

One does not have to bash Islam for it’s belief’s. One only needs to expose what Islam teaches from it’s own Koran, the fanatics give witness to the teachings of the Koran from their publicized actions.

A religion that teaches and preaches to destroy and conquer all others including governments that are not Muslim from their doctrines, should be taken seriously before entering a free society.

I am sure the White house or the Pentagon would not run to protect Chinese or Russian spy agents having their free will in our society to develope, exploit and excercise their “religion” of communism and calling it “protection of their civil rights”?

Where is our Teddy Rosevelt’s and General Patton’s when you need one?
 
*Please keep in mind the rules for inter-faith dialogue.
Guidelines
For both Catholic and non-Catholic posters:
It is acceptable to question the doctrine or dogma of another’s faith
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
Bringing up historical controversies peculiar to a particular religion should be done cautiously

It is acceptable to discuss the effect the incident had on current policy or practice.
It is acceptable to seek the truth vs. commonly-held beliefs or conventional wisdom about actual events.
It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they “prove” a particular religion is false.
Expecting members of any Church to defend or answer for the excesses or extremism of bodies that have broken with it is a technique that has no merit and can’t be defended.

**
Just to clear, I did not post this for my own entertainment. I EXPECT it to be followed.
 
I heard that Islam is not allowed to be practiced in Vatican City… Is this true?
 
I heard that Islam is not allowed to be practiced in Vatican City… Is this true?
Muslims are allowed to visit Vatican City, but there are no mosques in there.

Unlike us Christians, we cannot visit Mecca in Saudi Arabia
 
Muslims are allowed to visit Vatican City, but there are no mosques in there.

Unlike us Christians, **we cannot visit Mecca in Saudi Arabia
I didn’t know that. When was this stipulated? Just asking.

MJ
 
I didn’t know that either. Pam we are hungry for info, feed us. 😛
 
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MartinJordan:
I didn’t know that. When was this stipulated? Just asking.

MJ

When was what stipulated…??? :confused:
 
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