Islam as a "religion" and not an Ideology.

[TEPO]

This is a list if all the official political parties tied in with Islamism.

Green Algeria Alliance
Bangladesh
Bangladesh Nationalist Party
Bangladesh Jamaat-e-Islami
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Party of Democratic Action
Egypt
Freedom and Justice Party (Egypt)[1][2]
Al-Nour Party
Al-Wasat Party[3]
Indonesia
National Awakening Party
United Development Party
Prosperous Justice Party
Crescent Star Party
Reform Star Party
India
All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen
Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazagham
Iran
Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran
Islamic Iran Participation Front
Iraq
State of Law Coalition
National Iraqi Alliance
Kazakhstan
Alash, National Patriotic Party
Lebanon
Islamic Group (Lebanon)
Libya
Justice and Construction Party
National Forces Alliance
Homeland Party (Libya)
Malaysia
United Malays National Organisation[4]
Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party
Maldives
Islamic Democratic Party (Maldives)
Adhaalath Party
Morocco
Justice and Development Party (Morocco)[5]
Pakistan
Jamaat-e-Islami
Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf[6][7]
Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal
Philippines
Moro Islamic Liberation Front
Rwanda
Islamic Democratic Party (Rwanda)
Syria
Muslim Brotherhood of Syria
Tajikistan
Islamic Renaissance Party of Tajikistan
Tunisia
Ennahda Movement
Turkey
Felicity Party
Justice and Development Party (Turkey)[8][9]
Independent Turkey Party
Yemen
Al-Isiah

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_democratic_political_parties

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t know. The answer to your question is: I don’t know.

…Islamic Law, one of the main factors within Islamic ideology, doesn’t seem to promote the Common Good for societies from what I’ve seen. Can you show me any place in time where Sharia Law (which is inseparable from Islam), has displayed characteristics resembling something similar to a holy society? Or at least something that facilitates the Common Good? Does Sharia support the Culture of Life…?

If so, then maybe Islam as an Ideology could be something that Catholics could embrace -even though it seems completely unnatural (a typical trait amongst Ideologies).

If you can’t answer that question, do you really think you should be trying to redefine Islam as just an ideology and not religion?

As for the rest of your comment, I’m pretty sure arguments can be made by non-Catholics that our faith does not “promote the Common Good for societies.” It all depends on how you define and view the key terms. Additionally, the social impact of Islamic law has nothing to do with determining if Islam is an ideology or religion.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

إسلام سياسي – Islam should guide social, political, and personal aspects of life… If this is not an Ideology then I don’t k ow what is… This is Islam.

Um, haven’t the last several Holy Fathers made similar comments concerning our faith guiding the social, political, and personal aspects of life. For some reason I seem to remember a rather big push during our last Presidential elections concerning how our faith should shape how we vote. It was something to do with being Catholic and not voting for someone who supported something. Pro-something.

 

[gracepoole]

Um, haven’t the last several Holy Fathers made similar comments concerning our faith guiding the social, political, and personal aspects of life. For some reason I seem to remember a rather big push during our last Presidential elections concerning how our faith should shape how we vote. It was something to do with being Catholic and not voting for someone who supported something. Pro-something.

Bingo!

 

[TEPO]

If you can’t answer that question, do you really think you should be trying to redefine Islam as just an ideology and not religion?

As for the rest of your comment, I’m pretty sure arguments can be made by non-Catholics that our faith does not “promote the Common Good for societies.” It all depends on how you define and view the key terms. Additionally, the social impact of Islamic law has nothing to do with determining if Islam is an ideology or religion.

Sir, I took the time to answer your question as honestly and open-mindedly as I possibly could… The least you could do for me is to answer mine.

 

[TEPO]

the social impact of Islamic law has nothing to do with determining if Islam is an ideology or religion.

Please explain… I say it is because it’s the proof of the pudding. Just look at the list I provided only a few posts ago (post #97).

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Please explain… I say it is because it’s the proof of the pudding. Just look at the list I provided only a few posts ago (post #97).

See post 99 and apply it to post 97. If you like, I can google up a list of political organizations with ties to either the Church or the faith. In fact, given that the Church is a state in itself I could make a better argument for the faith being an ideology than Islam since there is no equivalent of the Vatican in Islam.

In your quest to label Islam as just an ideology (and here I assume you are using the term to describe a philosophical, social, or political set of ideas arranged in a coherent system) you have developed a scenario in which you either must admit that faithful Catholic can possibly also be a faithful Muslim since the Church has not spoken against the ideology of Islam or use a set of criteria by which no religion, including our own, can be considered a religion. Your last two examples being political parties (I can provide you with some if you wish) and the universal aspect in regards to our lives (see post 99 as well as some of the current Holy Father’s statements).

 

[TEPO]

oldcatholicguy;10865009:

Um, haven’t the last several Holy Fathers made similar comments concerning our faith guiding the social, political, and personal aspects of life. For some reason I seem to remember a rather big push during our last Presidential elections concerning how our faith should shape how we vote. It was something to do with being Catholic and not voting for someone who supported something. Pro-something.

Bingo!

There are no Catholic Party’s. there are no Catholic governments with their own Catholic judges, Catholic taxes, Catholic laws, Catholic police, Catholic military, etc… Why are you refusing to acknowledge these facts? Sharia is an actual governmental system with its own economic system! It is inseparable from Islam…

Catholicism is nothing like this at all.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There are no Catholic Party’s. there are no Catholic governments with their own Catholic judges, Catholic taxes, Catholic laws, Catholic police, Catholic military, etc… Why are you refusing to acknowledge these facts? Sharia is an actual governmental system with its own economic system! It is inseparable from Islam…

Catholicism is nothing like this at all.

Catholic government, judges, taxes, etc.- see Vatican City
Catholic government- review European history in regards to Bishoprics, Crusader states ran by the military orders, Church lands, Church courts, etc.
Catholic military- really? you need an example of this? coughreligious military orderscough
Catholic political parties- do I really have to list all of them?

What I’m refusing to do is to use a double standard in determining what is or is not a religion.

 

[TEPO]

Catholic government, judges, taxes, etc.- see Vatican City
Catholic government- review European history in regards to Bishoprics, Crusader states ran by the military orders, Church lands, Church courts, etc.
Catholic military- really? you need an example of this? coughreligious military orderscough
Catholic political parties- do I really have to list all of them?

What I’m refusing to do is to use a double standard in determining what is or is not a religion.

Yes, yes -and our faith tells us that we must overthrow current regimes and build Catholic ones. I think that’s from the book of Lucifer, verse 666.

Realistically, there are no Catholic political organizations in our current time period. I’m not interested into going back in time, during pre-democracy days. Times change, the Empire days are through.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Yes, yes -and our faith tells us that we must overthrow current regimes and build Catholic ones. I think that’s from the book of Lucifer, verse 666.

Realistically, there are no Catholic political organizations in our current time period. I’m not interested into going back in time, during pre-democracy days. Times change, the Empire days are through.

I was assuming your ability to use wiki to find a list of political parties affiliated or linked to Islam meant you also had the ability to do the same for political parties affiliated or linked to our faith. I apologize for assuming you had this ability.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_catholicism#Catholic_movements_in_the_20th_century

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Catholic_political_parties

Please note that those are just political parties. The list of Catholic organizations involved with or attempting to shape politics would be much larger.

Also please note that, as I stated before, the Church itself is a political organization (in the form of the Vatican); and it is also one of the largest non-governmental organizations out there that are involved with and/or attempt to shape politics.

By your line of thought and the criteria you have set forth, the above pretty much proves that our faith isn’t a religion, just an ideology. Huh, I guess we can no longer count on the 1st Amendment to protect our religious freedoms since, according to your argument and criteria, our faith is just an ideology.

Who would have thought trying to redefine one thing in order to justify one’s distaste of it would also redefine another thing one really wouldn’t want redefined. I guess that’s why we should leave such issues to the experts who actually know what they are doing and talking about.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Quick note, if Islam is more of a political, economic, and military ideology above even religion, then should our government not agree and cancel all of their non profit tax status? Should we not remove the thousands of religious visa given to Muslim leaders? Which directly relates back to Italy and its thinking. The idea that Islam is not a religion to me is incorrect. However, the religion is identified first through its ideals based on social political. …

‘Islam is Not a Religion’ are the words of Syed Abul A’la Maududi (founder of Jama’at Islami/JI). The numerous works of Maududi are studied worldwide. One of his more popular books is provided to worshippers by their Sunni Imams here in America. The book is, “Jihad in Islam”. It is a mere 32 pages, but 32 pages many Islamic scholars want Muslims to review. The book stresses to the Muslim people that Islam is about changing the world to one united Islamic Nation under Sharia Law. Maududi in no uncertain terms tells his followers the world means every country, and is not limited to a few select countries in the Middle East. This means our homeland is targeted by this ideology] varight.com

The following are statements made by Maududi:

1. “But the truth is that Islam is not the name of a Religion, nor is Muslim the title of a Nation. In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. Muslim is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And Jihad refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to achieve this objective”.
2. “Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it”.
3. “The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State.
4. “Islam requires the earth—not just a portion, but the whole planet”.
5. “Islam wishes to press into service all forces which can bring about a revolution and a composite term for the use of all these forces in Jihad. To change the outlook of the people and initiate a mental revolution among them through speech or writing in the form of Jihad. To alter the old tyrannical social system and establish a new just order of life by the power of sword is also Jihad and to expend goods and exert physically for this cause is Jihad too”.
6. “The objective of the Islamic Jihad is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system and establish in its stead an Islamic system of State rule. Islam does not intend to confine this revolution to a single state or a few countries; the aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution”.
7. “Although in the initial stages it is incumbent upon members of the party of Islam to carry out a revolution in the State System of the countries to which they belong, but their ultimate objective is no other than to effect a world revolution”.

So is he speaking for Mohammad? Who has the “authority” to speak for Mohammad? More “important” who is Islam listening to that’s speaking for Mohammed? Seems to me if not above someone with a similar agenda?

 

[deluded_primate]

religion is an ideology but ideology is not necessarily religion.
deludedprimate.com

 

[TEPO]

By your line of thought and the criteria you have set forth, the above pretty much proves that our faith isn’t a religion, just an ideology. Huh, I guess we can no longer count on the 1st Amendment to protect our religious freedoms since, according to your argument and criteria, our faith is just an ideology.

Who would have thought trying to redefine one thing in order to justify one’s distaste of it would also redefine another thing one really wouldn’t want redefined. I guess that’s why we should leave such issues to the experts who actually know what they are doing and talking about.

You’re wrong again. The reason Catholic Political parties were tried and failed was because Catholics are not obligated to support them… There is no Catholic ‘requirement’ for us to support them at all, unlike Islamism, which has political parts as its foundational doctrines which all Muslims MUST adhere to. That’s why Islamism spreads and Catholic party’s don’t.

These Catholic parties were all merely Ideological groups, completely ISOLATED from Catholic doctrines. They were all man-made outside of Church teachings.

Can we say the same thing in regards to Islamism? I doubt it.

 

[moodset]

Islam could, in my opinion, be considered an actual religion if Mullahs (teachers of law) were replaced by Dervishes (teachers of spiritual faith). Until then, i cannot help but to consider Islam an ideology and not an actual religion. Any comments?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish

Islam is a way to live a good life , died without fear , and reborn to Jannah if you believe in
a not telling you Just to believe it , try to read it
you will surprised as so many people was

 

[GaryTaylor]

Islam is a way to live a good life , died without fear , and reborn to Jannah if you believe in
a not telling you Just to believe it , try to read it
you will surprised as so many people was

Whats that mean? Try it you’ll like it?

Interesting thought we should expand on and tie that into ideal. Are you saying many find the fruit pleasing to the eye and desirable? Oh and surprised?

Further thought though is “died without fear” yup, that reached the “solid food” part of the conversation. How does that tie in with your view of submission, and what this other, don’t what your call him[apology], said here…

“Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology "

I’ll assume this next part is correct?

“Islam requires the earth—not just a portion, but the whole planet”.

Follow?

 

[TEPO]

Islam is a way to live a good life , died without fear , and reborn to Jannah if you believe in
a not telling you Just to believe it , try to read it
you will surprised as so many people was

Moodset, welcome to Catholic Answers Forums!
I agree that it is a good thing to not fear death.

 

[TEPO]

“efforts are, however, directed at the majority of non- Muslims living in the West, who are to be offered practical alternatives to the mounting problems of modern society and may be helped to understand that as an ideology and way of life Islam is superior to the failed ideologies of capitalism and communism.”
islamicparty.com/

…apparently within Islamism, there’s an economic system from God. Very interesting!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes medical also in the psychology field to help you understand their way of life and total submission to God which all the Abrahamic Faiths believe, how we interpret this is different, no? Anyway. this caught my interest in the article. “to improve their situation in a world ruled by forces prejudiced with anti-Islamic sentiment”

Does this mean Islam feels persecuted?

 

[TEPO]

Yes medical also in the psychology field to help you understand their way of life and total submission to God which all the Abrahamic Faiths believe, how we interpret this is different, no? Anyway. this caught my interest in the article. “to improve their situation in a world ruled by forces prejudiced with anti-Islamic sentiment”

Does this mean Islam feels persecuted?

According to the Islamic Party of Britain, it would be a crime to persecute or “insult” Islamism. “religions have to be protected from being exposed to vicious attacks and insults.”
islamicparty.com/policies/religious.htm