Islam as a system of life

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If you read about this Saint, you will see he didn’t have time to change his name before they (the justice loving muslims) beheaded him. Whether he would have is, therefore, a mute (or dead) point.
Actually according to some sources he did have enough time to choose a Christian name and he did so however because he was executed so quickly not very many people knew his Christian name so therefore it was lost to history.
 
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In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Christians against Muslims.
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind. Christian eye-witness accounts describe wholesale slaughter of entire Muslim cities - men, women and children. The “Christian” knights were particularly adept at roasting Muslim children over a spit. All in the name of Jesus apparently.
I think that you need to stop putting our 20th/21st Century Geneva Convention rules on peoples of the past. That same Geneva Convention that the muslims don’t follow and so torture - burn/behead/disembowel/etc their victims and aim their bombs at women and children, and hide behind them too, etc. We have no idea what they went through when fighting a group of people who were doing the same to others who were not muslims.

The Crusades in Context

The Crusades and the Spin Doctors

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Originally Posted by Black_Dog
In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Christians against Muslims.
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind. Christian eye-witness accounts describe wholesale slaughter of entire Muslim cities - men, women and children. The “Christian” knights were particularly adept at roasting Muslim children over a spit. All in the name of Jesus apparently.
:signofcross:

I think that you need to stop putting our 20th/21st Century Geneva Convention rules on peoples of the past. That same Geneva Convention that the muslims don’t follow and so torture - burn/behead/disembowel/etc their victims and aim their bombs at women and children, and hide behind them too, etc. We have no idea what they went through when fighting a group of people who were doing the same to others who were not muslims.

The Crusades in Context

The Crusades and the Spin Doctors

:signofcross:
Black dog will not look at your links for the simple fact that he/she stated, and I quote:
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind
These members don’t remember the muslim wars and conquest on Christian lands they had to endure for 400 years under islam.
 
Black dog will not look at your links for the simple fact that he/she stated, and I quote:

These members don’t remember the muslim wars and conquest on Christian lands they had to endure for 400 years under islam.
The argument using the Crusades is a weak one.

The conquest of lands still going on and that does indeed include a lot of bloodshed brought on by muslims. A more recent country that muslims came in and tortured many, bombed/shot at Christians, etc is Lebanon. The Philippines is also rife with violence that the muslims perpetrate on the Christians in the North, India - Pakistan, Kashmir and India violence is still going on. They had three major jihads and have a 4th going on now. There are actually too many lands to mention - AFrican, European, etc.

The UK is really going to be sorry in the end if they keep cowering to sharia law, muslim violence and other self-loathing type of behavior. They should look to see what happened in Lebanon. Appeasement does not work.
 
The argument using the Crusades is a weak one.

The conquest of lands still going on and that does indeed include a lot of bloodshed brought on by muslims. A more recent country that muslims came in and tortured many, bombed/shot at Christians, etc is Lebanon. The Philippines is also rife with violence that the muslims perpetrate on the Christians in the North, India - Pakistan, Kashmir and India violence is still going on. They had three major jihads and have a 4th going on now. There are actually too many lands to mention - AFrican, European, etc.

The UK is really going to be sorry in the end if they keep cowering to sharia law, muslim violence and other self-loathing type of behavior. They should look to see what happened in Lebanon. Appeasement does not work.
Indeed and agee!
 
Black dog will not look at your link
that’s true but that doesn’t mean I won’t read them I love all these resources because I learn a lot from them. There’s no doubt that these boards has made me a more educated person.
 
I
But I do have one question for you, Aydan. What do you think about Article 301 of the Turkish penal code, the famous one that makes it a crime to “insult Turkishness”? I have heard that this is used as a legal excuse to persecute and intimidate Muslim converts to Christianity in Turkey, as well as against authors and other intellectuals who talk about the Armenian genocide. This seems to be against Turkey’s well-known secularist foundations, and it is very disturbing to me to see actions against Turkish Christians treated as something acceptable by those who think they are defending Turkish nationalism (since some people in the country apparently think you can’t be Turkish AND Christian…they must close their eyes and hum really loudly when they see the Hagia Sophia!)
Well sorry it took me so long to answer this question for you butI just found the answer tonight and it was the first I’ve heard of this you’re right what you heard is absolutely true. I was stunned I had no idea until tonight but this video proves it without the shadow of a doubt.
youtube.com/watch?v=yLGt2skCVhk

Sadly people are still being martyred for Christ in Turkey as well. This video shows a stunning example of that. Warning it is pretty disturbing. But I also think it serves as a reminder to us about what it means to be Christian so I think it’s important to share it.

youtube.com/watch?v=qkowFl5oLkE

but you see this only strengthens my resolve to be a Turkish Catholic in my heart because being here safely in America by doing so I can bring attention to these issues and stand for the Turkish Christians but most of all I am in a unique position to educate people about the Turkish martyrs for Christ and I want to make sure that I do everything in my power to make sure they are not forgotten.
 
In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Christians against Muslims.
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind. Christian eye-witness accounts describe wholesale slaughter of entire Muslim cities - men, women and children. The “Christian” knights were particularly adept at roasting Muslim children over a spit. All in the name of Jesus apparently.
** B_D, I may add that the christian Crusaders even killed hundreds of christians in Jerusalem, not knowing that they were christians. That is the funniest part of the Crusades.

Please add that from me to the good work of the Christian Crusaders**.
 
“Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.”

Why don’t Christians stop aborting their babies, at all stages. Also, stop allowing the abhorent “gay rights” movement. Maybe then Muslims would not have such an advange in birth rate. Unless these things happen, we can expect the Moral Darwinism to continue.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace
“…
Why don’t Christians stop aborting their babies…gay rights” movement. .
Christians must not kill their babies because it’s a sin . Same about gayism . God did not allow it .
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Christians must not kill their babies because it’s a sin . Same about gayism . God did not allow it .
I am inclined to agree with you on this point. As you know, I was previously a Muslim. I have fallen away from Islam and am investigating Catholicism. My reading of Catholicism (Bible and Magisterium) is that these sort of sins (homosexual activity, abortion, birth control, etc.) are all objectively sinful. The problem is that most Catholics pick and choose which points of Dogma that they want to de-emphasize. For example, I spoke with a Catholic woman, who attended daily mass. She said that she was “not so sure that homosexuality is disordered”. She suggested that “all the evidence is not in yet”. Her implicit point is that it may change. According to my view, it NEVER will. Many “devout” Catholics take this approach to Catholic teaching without attepting to understand the Natural Law that underpins its Moral Theology.
A second problem, in my opinion, is that most Catholics seem to think the “separation of Church and State” is Church Dogma. It is NOT and NEVER has been. So, these Catholics, not understanding Natural Law in its Thomist incarnation, seem to think that they should not allow their Christian beliefs bleed over into their civil responsibilities. They will say things like, “I believe abortion is wrong, but don’t want to force my opinion on others”. I always ask them whether their stance is TRUE or merely personally efficacious. If they believed it was TRUE, then abortion is Murder and using all lawful means to stop hinder this evil practice should be carried out. They take similar stances on other objective evils that concupiscience leads to. All these factors lead to western (formerly Christian) societies have shrinking populations and are racked with social ills.
Islamic societies have their own social ills. This would be a whole other thread. Whether or not these are due to Islam or in spite of Islam would depend on perspective. Islam and its stance on music is an example of my problems with Islam. I totally agree that some music and things associated with music are morally questionable, but I cannot see how music generally is morally wrong. That fact that Islam has a wooden literalistic understanding of Natural Law is a huge hinderance to me.
 
In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Christians against Muslims.
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind.
In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Muslims against Christians during their despotic conquests:

c. 620-32 AD Mohammed starts Islam, raids Meccan caravans
632 – Mohammed dies
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims in October, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853-71 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps explain why Muslims were in the Alps at all]
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.
Ref: answering-islam.org.uk/Green/crusades-stenhouse.htm

This is what Muslim conquerors did. They had no right to invade lands that had been Christian for hundreds [in some cases 1,000] of years. Take Spain and France for example. Christians “lived on it and had a common identity” < – [The Muslim test]. So what makes Muslims right and Christians wrong? Christians had the land before the Muslims invaded. If we apply the Muslim test, Islam can claim no land outside Medina because it is the only place Mohammad was accepted without force.

And I am so glad you brought up the Crusades. The 463 years that elapsed between Muhammad’s death and the calling of a Crusade to free the Holy Places was not, as Islam apologists would have us believe, a time of “peaceful co-existence” between Muslims and European or Byzantine Christians. Nor was it, for Christians living in Muslim-occupied territories. They enjoyed “peace” only by keeping the lowest possible profile, paying the jizya, and accepting non-person status in lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived. Conquered peoples converted, lived as dhimmis, or were slain. If the Christian [or Jew] under Islamic rule could no longer pay the jizya, Muslims could resume jihad against him.

These events show that Islam did not spread by Muslim missionaries knocking on doors, handing out pamphlets, nor preaching from street corners. It spread by brutal conquest. Yet, Muslims continue to deny these events even occurred.
All in the name of Jesus apparently.
To the extent that Crusaders committed “attrocities”, they did so contrary to the teachings of Jesus; Muslim conquerors always act in imitation of their “perfect” example of Islam’s founder Mohammed so they can gain “paradise” in the next life.
 
In the interests of a fair and balanced debate perhaps mention should be made of the atrocities carried out by Christians against Muslims.
The “Holy” Crusades spring to mind.
To the extent that Muslims were the “victims” of Christian atrocities, they reaped what they sowed. If they had remained in Medina where they belonged, they would have been left alone.
 
To the extent that Muslims were the “victims” of Christian atrocities, they reaped what they sowed. If they had remained in Medina where they belonged, they would have been left alone.
Machiavelli, is that u?
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Christians must not kill their babies because it’s a sin . Same about gayism . God did not allow it .
The question that I have is whether alcohol, for instance, prohibitted because it is essentially bad (everywhere, always, for everyone) or is it prohibited because God said so?
 
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