Islam, Atheists and christianity

[manualman]

…
First, in order to truly understand the Islamic way of interpreting the Qur’an, you need to understand the concept of “abrogation.” …

Hope that’s helpful or at least informative. I just tend to find that Christians posting one-liners from the Qur’an and saying “See! Islam is evil!” is no less constructive than atheists pointing to some nasty lines from the Old Testament and saying “See! Judeo-Christian thought is based on murder!”

But see, this issue is rather like an onion. You’ve peeled back one more layer than most have, but you make the same mistake as those before you in concluding that you’ve figured it out and are done.

Abrogation as muslims typically explain it works according to the historical chronology, not textual (as you noted). Where the problem comes in is that Muhammed himself said many of his nicest, most peaceful and tolerant teachings when his followers were a minority living amongst a potentially hostile majority (IIRC this was his Mecca period?). Later in his life, when he became powerful enough not to need to fear for his own safety (Medinah period) is when the “kill them, smite them” stuff started popping up.

I readily admit that I’m no scholar myself, but I refer interested beginners to a recent article series by the “Reverend Know It All” website (find it via search).

 

[IbnFiktur]

But see, this issue is rather like an onion. You’ve peeled back one more layer than most have, but you make the same mistake as those before you in concluding that you’ve figured it out and are done.

Abrogation as muslims typically explain it works according to the historical chronology, not textual (as you noted). Where the problem comes in is that Muhammed himself said many of his nicest, most peaceful and tolerant teachings when his followers were a minority living amongst a potentially hostile majority (IIRC this was his Mecca period?). Later in his life, when he became powerful enough not to need to fear for his own safety (Medinah period) is when the “kill them, smite them” stuff started popping up.

I readily admit that I’m no scholar myself, but I refer interested beginners to a recent article series by the “Reverend Know It All” website (find it via search).

My field of study is Middle Eastern Studies with a particular focus on the transition from Byzantine authority to Islamic. I’m relatively well-informed on the subject here, though I’m learning more every day of course

And as I’ve said countless times before, I am not trying to act as an apologist for the Muslim faith. I’m trying to encourage others to learn something about it. And peeling back the onion one layer at a time is honestly the only way to do that. Thistle posted some verses from the Qur’an. I took it one step further by suggesting how Muslims interpret their scripture. There are hundreds of thousands of pages written on the topic. If there is interest in delving deeper into Islamic theology, I’m more than happy to join you, as it’s something that I have an interest in knowing about.

Anywho, hope that sheds some light better on where I’m coming from. Learning is a step-by-step process, and when I see one-liners from the Qur’an posted to prove a point, I generally assume that the poster is simply at step one

 

[severus68]

There are several ways that Muslim scholars treat these ayas. Only the most extreme treat them as commands that should be carried out in the present-day.

First, in order to truly understand the Islamic way of interpreting the Qur’an, you need to understand the concept of “abrogation.” This wikipedia article will be helpful, but to sum it up the idea is that revelations took place over several years of Muhammad’s life, and different things were going on at different times. In one circumstance, God may have told Muhammad not to trust the Christians or the Jews, perhaps because they were plotting rebellion against him (or something). In another circumstance, God urges moderation toward the Christians and Jews, calling them “People of the Book,” and only requiring that they submit to Muslim rule. Seemingly contradictory, but in fact according to Islamic theology God was telling Muhammad different things to adapt to different circumstances.

Strange as this may sound to Christians, it is the lens through which Muslims have interpreted the Qur’an throughout history, and if you are trying to understand Islamic thought it is imperative that you read the Qur’an in this light. It requires a deeper degree of scholarship than most Christians are willing to give; that is to say, it requires that you look up when a certain sura was revealed (made more complicated by the fact that the Qur’an is not chronologically organized) and what was going on in the life of Muhammad and the Muslim community at that time.

Hope that’s helpful or at least informative. I just tend to find that Christians posting one-liners from the Qur’an and saying “See! Islam is evil!” is no less constructive than atheists pointing to some nasty lines from the Old Testament and saying “See! Judeo-Christian thought is based on murder!”

I am confused. You describe yourself as Catholic but you are going far beyond just saying that we should just respect other beliefs and you appear to be arguing as if you were Muslim.

There are contradictory verses in the Quran as to how to treat non Muslims. Your explanation re how the Quran is not chronoligically organised, does not take away fear and is contradictory to what you say about different circumstances.

It is true that Islamic is an Abrahamic religion and the actions of fanatics does not make it an evil religion. However, for example, what about the fact that women are considered less than men. There have been many wrongs committed by Christians/Catholics in the past but today,we openly acknowledge that they were wrong and not about Christ/God and Christianity. How many Muslims acknowledge wrongs committed in the name of God? How many Muslims today want to go backwards ? While I know and have spoken to Muslims who are anti violence and have similar values, there re so many who loudly say how they are waiting to go to war and get rid of all infidels. Muslims need to prove that Islam is not a religion of violence and intolerance in the face of what we see every day around the world.

 

[IbnFiktur]

I am confused. You describe yourself as Catholic but you are going far beyond just saying that we should just respect other beliefs and you appear to be arguing as if you were Muslim.

Read my above post. I am a faithful churchgoing Catholic. Regarding some of your specific points:

There are contradictory verses in the Quran as to how to treat non Muslims. Your explanation re how the Quran is not chronoligically organised, does not take away fear and is contradictory to what you say about different circumstances.

Your wording here is rather unclear. Either way, I’m not arguing that the Qur’an is authentic scripture; I don’t think it is, otherwise I wouldn’t be Catholic. I am attempting to explain how the Qur’an is understood and interpreted in Islamic thought. It’s a very different matter than in Christian theology. If you want to understand a religion and a people (and therefore be able to effectively coexist and, yes, evangelize among that people) you need to understand these subtleties. Again, I’m not defending Islam; I am attempting to pass on some of my knowledge to a largely uninformed and often misinformed American/Christian public.

However, for example, what about the fact that women are considered less than men.

Just like in the Christian world, this depends largely on where you go and who you talk to. There are Muslim countries that treat women better than others. There are Muslims who hold more-or-less modern/Western views on women’s rights. And yes, the Qur’an places men above women. So too, however, do Paul’s writings. The same arguments could be made against Christianity, and like Christianity it is best to understand Islam as a diverse religion with modernists, progressives, fundamentalists, and crazies.

How many Muslims acknowledge wrongs committed in the name of God?

Tell me, how many Muslims do you know?

Every Muslim I know condemns the evils committed in the name of God on 9/11.

The reason I’m trying to post my knowledge on this forum is to show that Islam is just as diverse, divided, complex, and fascinating as Christianity. How many Catholics do you know who acknowledge wrongs committed in the name of God? Well, just look around this forum and you’ll have the answer: some Catholics do, some Catholics don’t. Expand that out to the whole of Christianity: some Christians do, some Christians don’t. Some Christians say, “that was THOSE Christians, not me,” or “that was the CATHOLICS, I’m Baptist, so it’s not my fault.”

It’s the same thing in Islam! If nothing else, I’m asking readers to simply broaden their perspective and avoid seeing “Islam” as this huge monolithic entity of people who believe one fixed set of beliefs that often lead them to do evil things. That is no more true of “Islam” than it is of “Christianity.”

 

[severus68]

My field of study is Middle Eastern Studies with a particular focus on the transition from Byzantine authority to Islamic. I’m relatively well-informed on the subject here, though I’m learning more every day of course

And as I’ve said countless times before, I am not trying to act as an apologist for the Muslim faith. I’m trying to encourage others to learn something about it. And peeling back the onion one layer at a time is honestly the only way to do that. Thistle posted some verses from the Qur’an. I took it one step further by suggesting how Muslims interpret their scripture. There are hundreds of thousands of pages written on the topic. If there is interest in delving deeper into Islamic theology, I’m more than happy to join you, as it’s something that I have an interest in knowing about.

Anywho, hope that sheds some light better on where I’m coming from. Learning is a step-by-step process, and when I see one-liners from the Qur’an posted to prove a point, I generally assume that the poster is simply at step one

My apologies for thinking you were being an apologist for Islam.

 

[severus68]

Read my above post. I am a faithful churchgoing Catholic. Regarding some of your specific points:

:c

onfused: Your wording here is rather unclear. Either way, I’m not arguing that the Qur’an is authentic scripture; I don’t think it is, otherwise I wouldn’t be Catholic. I am

I do agree if we are looking at individuals but don’t we have a firm set of beliefs as Catholics ?

 

[IbnFiktur]

I do agree if we are looking at individuals but don’t we have a firm set of beliefs as Catholics ?

Well the answer is yes and no there too, isn’t it? Catholicism itself is very rich in diversity of thought, theology, and viewpoints. True, more than most forms of Christianity, we have a written-down code called the Catechism (which is and always has been subject to change and development, by the way). We also have Canon Law (also subject to change), and other such things.

But we also have many theologians writing at a variety of periods throughout our 2000-year history who have many different opinions on things. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine don’t agree on everything, and yet these two occasionally contradictory theologians form the basis of Catholic theology and religious thought. So do we have a firm set of beliefs in Catholicism? We have some. But there are also a lot of open theological issues, and if you study the history of the Church you will see that many things have changed, evolved, and developed.

And the comparison is imperfect anyways, since there is nothing comparable to the Catholic Church in Islam, or at least there hasn’t been since the fall of the last Caliph in the late-Middle Ages. There are the main “sects” of Islam (Sunni and Shi’i), which each are divided into a variety of sub-sects, some formally divided, some informally divided. Within Sunni Islam (the larger of the two) there is no real “authority,” there are simply scholars who debate theology and whose writings scholars read, ponder, and write about. It’s similar to how Christianity and Catholicism developed, really. There are many schools of thought within Sunnism, generally named after a predominant scholar, and that is not considered to be a “bad” thing per se (except by certain small sects such as the Wahabbis, who are far more dogmatic about things). It’s simply viewed as a variety of theological views in the quest for truth. There are some overarching theological principles that I have tried to identify in the course of this thread, and the other one I’m currently active in in the non-Catholic Religions forum.

 

[manualman]

My field of study is Middle Eastern Studies with a particular focus on the transition from Byzantine authority to Islamic. I’m relatively well-informed on the subject here, though I’m learning more every day of course
…
Anywho, hope that sheds some light better on where I’m coming from. Learning is a step-by-step process, and when I see one-liners from the Qur’an posted to prove a point, I generally assume that the poster is simply at step one

Zing! Manualman gets ACED!

Based on your understanding, would you care to comment on my understanding that abrogation really doesn’t work since the more peaceful teachings of Muhammed came earlier and the more warlike and dominating ones later in his life?

I readily admit to knowing just a handful of muslims and those that I do are fine examples of human decency. But is that because they are muslims or because they a humans, created good in God’s image, but fallen to an imperfect state? You have to judge a religion by its principles and always remember that judging the principles of a religion is VERY different than judging the persons who say they follow that religion.

 

[IbnFiktur]

Based on your understanding, would you care to comment on my understanding that abrogation really doesn’t work since the more peaceful teachings of Muhammed came earlier and the more warlike and dominating ones later in his life?

Honestly, I’d have to dust off some of my old books, which I may just do when I get home Based on what I can recall off of memory though, I think your thoughts on the matter were on the right track, with a few qualifications:

If I remember right, the sura in which God declares that the People of the Book must be charged a poll tax (and, by connection, not slayed) came later in Muhammad’s life. This is not surprising at all; it wasn’t until later in his life that he had to worry about civil administration across a state of any size, and he was beginning to have to worry about revenue. This principle was the main principle with regard to Christians and Jews that was carried on after Muhammad’s life, probably because it was what Muhammad actually practiced (again, he needed revenue) and because even more so, the rulers of the new and rapidly expanding empire needed revenue!

So regardless of at what point the sura that declared that the unbelievers must be put to the sword was revealed, it is understood to be impermanent and circumstantial. Maybe there was a community of Christians/Jews that was refusing to submit to Muhammad’s armies? Regardless, it is clear from early Islamic history (as told by both Muslim and Christian sources) that the systematic slaughter of Jews and Christians was not a consistent principle; quite the opposite in fact, since taxes paid Jews and Christians were the main source of revenue for the early Islamic state.

Hope that is helpful

I readily admit to knowing just a handful of muslims and those that I do are fine examples of human decency. But is that because they are muslims or because they a humans, created good in God’s image, but fallen to an imperfect state? You have to judge a religion by its principles and always remember that judging the principles of a religion is VERY different than judging the persons who say they follow that religion.

I agree, but the “principles” of a religion should not be boiled down to a simple surface reading of their texts. Otherwise, we are treating that religion as unfairly as an atheist who pulls some lines from the Old Testament and condemns Christianity and Judaism as a whole. We must also learn how such texts are interpreted in order to truly understand what those principles are, and also how such interpretations differ within a religion.

 

[manualman]

Agreed that noncontextual prooftexting helps nobody.

But color me not too impressed that Muhammed toned down his jihad rhetoric in favor of dhimmi status and jizya payments for all Jews and Christians (not to mention the myriad of other humiliations imposed on the dhimmi). If Muhammed is Allah’s most perfect example of a servant, then I’ll pass on Allah, thanks. Yes, christians commited many atrocities against minorities too, but the difference is that those things aren’t enshrined and endorsed by the central figure of our faith: Christ. Christian atrocities in history happened in SPITE of the fact that they were offenses against the principles Jesus taught. Muslims can commit oppression and hold up Muhammed as justification for what they do.

One telling characteristic of Jesus’ authenticity is his perfection of character. I might not argue that Muhammed was a standout of virtue and charater judged by the standards in place of his day, but he gets a bit raggedy when judged by more advanced civilizations. Jesus’s teachings never get dated. Not suprising since he’s God…

 

[IbnFiktur]

Agreed that noncontextual prooftexting helps nobody.

But color me not too impressed that Muhammed toned down his jihad rhetoric in favor of dhimmi status and jizya payments for all Jews and Christians (not to mention the myriad of other humiliations imposed on the dhimmi). If Muhammed is Allah’s most perfect example of a servant, then I’ll pass on Allah, thanks. Yes, christians commited many atrocities against minorities too, but the difference is that those things aren’t enshrined and endorsed by the central figure of our faith: Christ. Christian atrocities in history happened in SPITE of the fact that they were offenses against the principles Jesus taught. Muslims can commit oppression and hold up Muhammed as justification for what they do.

One telling characteristic of Jesus’ authenticity is his perfection of character. I might not argue that Muhammed was a standout of virtue and charater judged by the standards in place of his day, but he gets a bit raggedy when judged by more advanced civilizations. Jesus’s teachings never get dated. Not suprising since he’s God…

I agree with you on this, that’s why I’m a Catholic Christian

 

[Seeker]

IbnFiktur, you seem to be very knowledgable about Islam especially the exegeses of Islamic scripture and so I have a few questions for you

1. We’re you born a Catholic Christian or did you come from a different religious background?
2. You have stated in earlier posts (and i am paraphasing) that the Quran is a amazing book from a poetry genre perspective and that Mohammed did alot of good, why then do you follow JESUS thru a Christian/Catholic framework, what compells you to stay with Christianity?
3. With your level of understanding of Islamic scripture , how do you defend the essential truths of our faith which islam and the Muslims deny, I.e. the Trintiy, Jesus being divine, the crucifixion, the resurrection and our scriptures which they see as corrupted and not the true “injeel” as “revealed” to Jesus??

Thanks

S

 

[IbnFiktur]

IbnFiktur, you seem to be very knowledgable about Islam especially the exegeses of Islamic scripture and so I have a few questions for you

1. We’re you born a Catholic Christian or did you come from a different religious background?

I was born Catholic.

1. You have stated in earlier posts (and i am paraphasing) that the Quran is a amazing book from a poetry genre perspective and that Mohammed did alot of good, why then do you follow JESUS thru a Christian/Catholic framework, what compells you to stay with Christianity?

I do not believe I ever passed moral judgment on Muhammad one way or the other. I certainly never said he “did a lot of good.” He may have, I wasn’t there and I didn’t know him. Or he may have not.

I am a Catholic Christian by birth, and remain a Catholic Christian through faith and because I believe strongly in the essential truths of Christianity, which Islam denies. It’s truly as simple as that. I could list plenty of reasons why I believe Christianity to be true, but that could take a whole book now couldn’t it?

1. With your level of understanding of Islamic scripture , how do you defend the essential truths of our faith which islam and the Muslims deny, I.e. the Trintiy, Jesus being divine, the crucifixion, the resurrection and our scriptures which they see as corrupted and not the true “injeel” as “revealed” to Jesus??

Again, I could take a whole book describing why I believe Catholic teachings to be true. In the meantime I’d refer you to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, they have discussed the matter with much greater skill, holiness, and accuracy than I ever could, which I why I do my best to read their works when I can

A little on how I describe my faith to Muslims: I discussed the differing views on modes of revelation between Christianity and Islam in another thread. I do my best to explain to my Muslim friends how and why Christians believe in our form of revelation. Many Muslims understand it as poorly as Christians understand their views.

Hope that was clear?

 

[Seeker]

First of all, all those christian who says islam is bad religion, you are wrong. Islam(surrender your will to god) ,is a religion of peace. The flaw in islam is they don’t believe jesus is son of god .They believe in quran ,even i do, but it wasn’t written by prophet himself like john,isiah, moses ,prophet mohammed’s disciples wrote it when he preached . But dont’ neglect the fact that the disciples can add anything to the verses according to their human wisdom. If prophet mohammed said’’ Jesus is son of god’’ ,they could have thought’‘how can god marry?’’ ‘’ God will never have sex’’ But the truth is Jesus was first born son to god through the grace of holy spirit ,and not a women.John 1:1-3 ,John 3:6 ‘‘a person is physically born from his parents but in spirit he comes from spirit(holy spirit) ,Jesus existed even before the world was made(before women) ,he was born to God through the holy spirit,All the other things in this world is created.’‘everything was created for him,through him and everything will go back to him’’ .And now to christians, Quran was revealed to prophet mohammed because people weren’t listening to heavenly wisdom of jesus .Quran speaks about many human wisdom even before scientists discovered them ,Dr.zakir nayak explained it beautifully , who knows a machine better than it’s creator? the creator himself ,Scientists or atheist tells us about how everything came from big bang but it’s written in 2 esdras 40 ‘’ he commanded a light to shine out of the room where it was stored’’ , Quran surah 21 :60, Scientist proved us how moon reflects the sunlight but it was already revealed to humans in surah 26:21 , surah 79:30 tells us about spherical shape of earth, surah 21:33 tells us how sun revolves in it’s own axis, Surah 39:21, 30:24,15:22,23:18 24:43,30:48, 7:17 ,they all speaks of water cycle even before scientist discoverd them, many verses in quran and bible tells us about ‘‘science’’ even before they discovered it ,how come quran and bible knew about things which people discovered ages after it were written? the only answer is the creator himself revealed it to prophets.But as prophet isiah prophecised of ''they have closed there ears, they take lie as their refuge ‘’ ,Romans 1:25 ‘‘they have exchanged god’s truth with a lie and brought judgement upon themselves’’ , Quran speaks of how unbelievers will dispute with signs of allah.Evoultion indeed is real but i was created,2 peter 2 :8 for god 1000 days are 1 day and 1 day are 1000 years for him even trillion years are 1 sec. Romans 8 :20 ‘‘for creation was subjugated to lose it’s purpose not of it’s own will but god willed that to be so’’ , evolution seems more reliable because it’s god’s will not human wisdom. Everyone no matter christian ,pagan, muslim ,atheist everyone needs to realize that jesus told us to have faith in him and follow him ,not to create a religion after him. Following Jesus is not a religion, it’s life,truth and way to heaven,to eternity. Even hindhu vedas speaks about Jesus (isa-putra) , He will reward everyone according to what they did when he comes down from heaven with great glory ,Have faith in him ! Luke 18 :8 ‘‘BUT WILL SON OF MAN FIND FAITH ON EARTH WHEN HE COMES?’’

Justicekraite,

Who are you trying to fool here on CAF by posting your religious affiliation as “catholic” when it is blatantly noticeable given how wrote your original post and your replies that you are a muslim and if I would to guess a Muslim from where, it would be from the sub-continent …If Islam is your religion then be brave enough and declare it, don’t be a wolf in sheep’s clothing you lose creditability by doing that!

 

[Seeker]

I was born Catholic.

OK

I do not believe I ever passed moral judgment on Muhammad one way or the other. I certainly never said he “did a lot of good.” He may have, I wasn’t there and I didn’t know him. Or he may have not.

OK, fair enough, but based on your studies of islam and mohammed what are your personal view of him? My personal views are I wouldn’t consider him a man to emulate or follow like the 1.5 billion that do, he is not the “best of role models” as muslims would like to say about him, and he was definitely not sinless, again this is my opinion…Mohammed to me can best be summed up in the tweets (especially parts of tweet # 2 and tweet #3) Hamza Kashgari the saudi blogger wrote about him on the occasion of Mawlid

tweet #1
On your birthday, I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do, and smile at you as you smile at me. I shall speak to you as a friend, no more.
tweet # 2
On your birthday, I find you wherever I turn. I will say that I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more.
tweet # 3
On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you’ve always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you.

I am a Catholic Christian by birth, and remain a Catholic Christian through faith and because I believe strongly in the essential truths of Christianity, which Islam denies. It’s truly as simple as that. I could list plenty of reasons why I believe Christianity to be true, but that could take a whole book now couldn’t it?
Again, I could take a whole book describing why I believe Catholic teachings to be true. In the meantime I’d refer you to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, they have discussed the matter with much greater skill, holiness, and accuracy than I ever could, which I why I do my best to read their works when I can
A little on how I describe my faith to Muslims: I discussed the differing views on modes of revelation between Christianity and Islam in another thread. I do my best to explain to my Muslim friends how and why Christians believe in our form of revelation. Many Muslims understand it as poorly as Christians understand their views.

I understand it could take a whole book to explain why you believe in Christianity and its teachings and doctrines, but my question were more towards how you’ve gone about defending those truths during your conversations with muslims, you started talking about it a little bit towards the end regarding modes of revelation between islam and Christianity but I’d like you elaborate more……I know I could go to St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and other Church fathers, but I rather know how lay people like you and others who are Christian with strong knowledge of islam defends these truths, maybe a brief synopsis of each, i.e. The Trinity, divinity of Jesus, crucifixion, resurrection and the inerrancy of our scriptures…btw what thread were you referring too here, could you provide me a link to that thread

I discussed the differing views on modes of revelation between Christianity and Islam in another thread

Thanks

S

 

[IbnFiktur]

Seeker,

I see, I think I misunderstood you; a poster in the other thread I was referring to indicated that he didn’t believe that I could possibly be Christian, so I felt that rather than asking my opinion you were verifying the authenticity of my Christian beliefs. (It appears that a moderator has deleted that poster’s comment).

I’ll do my best with the time I have (on a lunch break).

OK, fair enough, but based on your studies of islam and mohammed what are your personal view of him? My personal views are I wouldn’t consider him a man to emulate or follow like the 1.5 billion that do, he is not the “best of role models” as muslims would like to say about him, and he was definitely not sinless, again this is my opinion…Mohammed to me can best be summed up in the tweets (especially parts of tweet # 2 and tweet #3) Hamza Kashgari the saudi blogger wrote about him on the occasion of Mawlid

Viewing Muhammad as a historical figure, it’s truly difficult to say. The only evidence we have of his life are the Qur’an (obviously a biased source, since he revealed it) and the hadith, which is the body of “sayings of the prophet” collected by Muslim scholars. Hadith are often contradictory, and a great deal of Muslim theology concerns itself with determining which of these are true sayings of the prophet and which of them are falsehoods. This is done by evaluating the sources that have transmitted these oral traditions. There are usually many people transmitting stories, and the beginning of a hadith almost always goes something like this:

“I learned from so-and-so on the authority of so-and-so that it was related to him by so-and-so that so-and-so said that the wife of the Prophet said that he said:”

Needless to say, it is no easy matter to piece together which of these are true and which are made up by later generations. There are contradictory hadith, and hadith that some sects believe to be true, and hadith that some sects believe to be false. Secular scholars tend to believe that a great many hadith were made up by later generations to support their views of Islam vs. another person or group’s views of Islam.

With all this, it is thus extremely difficult to piece together exactly who Muhammad was. We can confidently say that he was remarkably eloquent for a man who lived in a largely pre-literate society, he was an inspiring leader who was able to mobilize and maintain support for monotheism in a largely pagan society, he was an effective governor and administrator, and a skilled general. All of these are morally neutral traits.

As far as his “moral compass” goes, I would say that many aspects of Islam, especially the more war-like aspects, hearken back to pre-Islamic bedouin culture, which was characterized by inter-tribal feuds, raids, and a sense of loyalty to the tribe. Muhammad and Islam transformed all this, and unified the previously fragmented Arab tribes. Many aspects of the culture remained; Islam did expand militarily, though NOT barbarically, in many cases the conquests were virtually bloodless, especially in terms of civilian casualties. Furthermore, the Muslim Conquests were NOT concerned with the conversion of conquered peoples; once a people converted, they didn’t pay the poll tax anymore! Early Muslim rulers made virtually no effort to convert conquered peoples because they needed those peoples’ tax revenue.

In this sense, I view Islam expansionism in the same way that I might view early Roman expansionism… lots of fighting between armies, not a terrible amount of civilian death, and a comfortable status quo born from a prosperous empire in the conquests’ immediate wake. This is a historical rather than a religious phenomenon, and that’s how I view it. The advent of Islam is simply what unified the Arab tribes, thus making expansionism possible.

I don’t find Muhammad any more morally good or bad than I do Alexander the Great… and we tend not to evaluate Alexander the Great in moral terms, because he was a historical figure. Would I want to follow a religion founded by Alexander the Great? Certainly not, and that’s why I don’t follow a religion founded by Muhammad. Which leads to my next point…

Islam does have political implications. For many Muslims, these are not terribly relevant today, or at least no more relevant than “politically Christianity” is to Catholics (ie, most of us do not seek to emulate the days of Papal political control). However, this political element is visible in the earliest days of Islam. I find Christianity to be a far more pure religion simply because Jesus was NOT a general, Jesus was NOT a governor, Jesus was NOT an administrator. Jesus was simply God. Muhammad, on the other hand, was an accomplished man in the ways of the world.

I belief this is an extremely important fact in the defense of the Christian faith; it is a more pure, less worldly, version of Truth.

my question were more towards how you’ve gone about defending those truths during your conversations with muslims, you started talking about it a little bit towards the end regarding modes of revelation between islam and Christianity but I’d like you elaborate more

I hope my above point was helpful, because I simply don’t have time to answer this part right now… maybe later tonight. I would direct you to the thread I linked to above though, for the part about modes of revelation. They are truly different ideas of what revelation is, and often it is simply a good enough start to explain what revelation means to Christians. If a Muslim attempts to look at Christian scripture through his own understanding of “revelation,” said Muslim will find our scripture to be ridiculous, and it’s no wonder that they think our scriptures are corrupt. It certainly helps to explain what we mean by “scripture” and “sacred tradition.”