Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

[CommonWeal]

Please also study the following, written by St. Thomas Aquinas, perhaps the greatest theologian and philosopher the world has ever known.

Thomas Aquinas, Reasons for the Faith Against Muslim Objections.

 

[MartinJordan]

Someone correct me. Didn’t the OP suddenly move the goal post to a Bible verse?

MJ

 

[Elena321]

Any number of possibilities.
Eg:
1.she could be acutely aware that some people have negative feelings or misconceptions towards Muslims.
2.shes not real religious so therefor doesn’t know or think deeply about what she believes in regarding God/spirituality.

The “I have to be” comment might be her saying that she feels for family sake she needs to identify as Muslim but internally she might be feeling that she accepts/sees people of all religions the same etc…

 

[MartinJordan]

Bible
I: A revelation sent to Prophet Jesus as the Torah was revealed to Prophet Moses.
Muslims believe in all the revelations of God but follow the Quran only as God preserves it from change and corruption.
C: Was the Bible not changed?

Are you talking Old Testament alone or Old and New together?

MJ

 

[ClearWater]

At a professional conference this week, I had a conversation this week with a woman who is a graduate student from Iran studying at a U.S. university. After a few minutes of talking about technical parts of our industry, we started talking about our personal lives. After a little while, she started talking about her personal philosophy, and started talking about God being all about love and how she doesn’t care what religion a person is as long as they live a good life.

I listened, then asked her if she is Muslim. To this question, she frowned and replied, “I have to be.” I said that I’m Catholic, and that God being love is a very central part of my beliefs, but that I’d never heard a Muslim say that. She seemed very unhappy at that, and we went on to talk about something else.

I was really shocked to hear someone answer that they “have to be” a particular religion. Retrospectively, I’m thinking that in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo massacre in France, she must have been feeling self-conscious about coming from a Muslim country, and that’s why she started talking to me about how she doesn’t care what religion someone is.

Does anyone have any thoughts about what would make this woman say what she did? Muslims I know quote a hadith in which Muhammad is purported to say, “there is no compulsion in religion.” However, this woman seemed really uncomfortable about my asking if she was a Muslim, even though she had been talking with me about God.

Any thoughts anyone?

If she frowned like that and said, “I have to be”, she seems to feel she has no choice.

I haven´t yet had the opportunity to read it, but I hear there´s a very good book out, “I Dared Call Him Father” that might shed some light on this.

The few movies I’ve seen, such as “Not Without My Daughter” also seem to show how much pressure is brought to bear insofar as religion is concerned.

 

[robwar]

At a professional conference this week, I had a conversation this week with a woman who is a graduate student from Iran studying at a U.S. university. After a few minutes of talking about technical parts of our industry, we started talking about our personal lives. After a little while, she started talking about her personal philosophy, and started talking about God being all about love and how she doesn’t care what religion a person is as long as they live a good life.

I listened, then asked her if she is Muslim. To this question, she frowned and replied, “I have to be.” I said that I’m Catholic, and that God being love is a very central part of my beliefs, but that I’d never heard a Muslim say that. She seemed very unhappy at that, and we went on to talk about something else.

I was really shocked to hear someone answer that they “have to be” a particular religion. Retrospectively, I’m thinking that in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo massacre in France, she must have been feeling self-conscious about coming from a Muslim country, and that’s why she started talking to me about how she doesn’t care what religion someone is.

Does anyone have any thoughts about what would make this woman say what she did? Muslims I know quote a hadith in which Muhammad is purported to say, “there is no compulsion in religion.” However, this woman seemed really uncomfortable about my asking if she was a Muslim, even though she had been talking with me about God.

Any thoughts anyone?

There are several reasons her statement. Does she “have to be” because of family, because of her husband if she is married, because she thinks Islam is the true faith? I think it could be any of the above. I also am not surprised that she is uncomfortable in talking. She probably realizes how Islam treats women and maybe she doesn’t want to explain of those sorts of problems. She is Muslim yet realizes that there are natural questions any free thinking person would ask. I work with a very nice Muslim man. One time I wanted to ask him about Ramadan and what that meant to him. Just asking, wanted his point of view and had no other agenda than curiosity. He was very polite and answered questions but did seem uncomfortable. I tried show sensitivity to him and just listen. Maybe with all the news and problems, the normal Muslim that we meet and work with in the US might be more gun shy in discussions.

 

[hiramross]

O Randy!! Hahahaha that was awesome!



Im in both of you’lls cheering section!

 

[powerofk]

That was my interpretation. If she really thinks it doesn’t matter what religion you are, so long as you live a good life, then on those terms, there’s no reason she has to be a Muslim.

But the penalty for Islamic apostasy, everywhere, is death. So, on those terms, she absolutely does have to be a Muslim.

Exactly. Remember that young woman from the Sudan who was sentenced to death a few months back? She was raised Christian - and identified as such. However, because her father was nominally Muslim, Sharia law considered her to be Muslim, as well. Under Sharia law, children are considered to be the religion of their fathers, and a Muslim woman must marry a Muslim man for her to be validly married (though a Muslim man can marry - in fact, is often encouraged to marry - a non-Muslim woman in order to attempt to convert her). Islam, like Catholicism, considers itself to be the “One true faith”. As such, they accept conversions from any other religion to Islam, but once one has become Muslim, whether by birth or by conversion, he/she is not allowed to convert to another religion. The penalty for such is death. Of course, such a punishment is only enforceable in a majority-Muslim nation under Sharia law. In other parts of the world, the main punishment is shunning by the person’s family.

As such, that young Iranian woman is forced to remain Muslim if she ever wishes to go back to Iran or any majority-Muslim country which uses Sharia law as the basis for their laws. It sounds like she would like to be Christian, but understands the repercusions for that in her home country.

 

[thankulord]

This young woman is outside of her country away from the male members of her family and her society. It sounds like she was eager to tell you her true feeling about religious belief without any worry, but then your question brought up a sorrow in her life. Since she felt free to talk to you without any bad result or reservation I think it would have been OK for you to ask her to explain why she had to be Muslim since you sincerely didn’t know.

A little different, but related to the subject. . .

I have friend from Pakistan who lived outside his country. He became Christian. He feared for his life due to threats from other Pakistani. At this time both he and the people making threats were in prison, so he was safe. When I asked information from other Muslims, a well traveled Muslim man from Egypt said that he had never met a Muslim that had converted, that he would REALLY like to meet such a person and see what they would say to HIM!!! THAT THEY HAD BECOME CHRISTIAN?

I also asked another friend from Pakistan if my first friend(who had become Christian) had to fear for his life due to the law in Pakistan? This well educated graduate student laughed and said that others would take that into their own hands, he had nothing to fear from the “State”. (He meant that the guy who became Christian would be killed by others upon his return to his country.

Some years have passed now, the friend who became Christian lives a difficult life in a poor country and is in the process of becoming a refugee there. I asked him why he isn’t in contact with his sister in Pakistan? He said that he had made contact with her many years back, but she said if he loved her, he should never make contact again. He explain that she had married into a conservative Muslim family and maybe we can figure out the rest of the story. . .

 

[abucs]

Logically I have to be a Christian rather than a Muslim.

The greatest thing God ever did was to be incarnated into His own creation to teach us His love through living with us. His death and resurrection stands for all time as a Divine lesson of the importance of love, sacrifice and humility. It shows a true path to the eternal greatness of God and inspires a voluntary spirit of fidelity.

It is illogical that 500 years later he would inspire a pagan prophet to deny this great Divine lesson of love in favour of a movement that brought so much horrific violence and misery to the neighbouring peoples.

Logically, God’s message of intimacy, sacrifice and resurrection is superior to Muhammad’s message of authoritarian submission.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Thank you. So back to the original question: what does Jesus mean when He says no one knows the hour, not even the Son, but only the Father? Is He not referring to the Son of G-d, that is, Himself? If so, how would Jesus, as a human, know that the Son of G-d does not know the hour, and why would He make such a statement?

He made the statement for two reasons - the first one was that His own personal disciples were pestering Him about when He would return. He was making it loud and clear that He didn’t know.

The other reason is that He knew that down the centuries, His Christian followers would ask the same question. Since He also knew that His “word would never die away”, and that His reply to His disciples would echo down the generations via the Scriptures, He was giving future followers warning not to get hung up on the time of His return.

In other words He was speaking both to His own personal disciples and to all those whom He knew would be His down the centuries.

 

[Amoon]

I think that God is exalted and glorified beyond our possibility to understand. Why do you worship a God who is easy to understand? Is that not, in fact, a kind of idolatry? Isn’t it quite likely that your concept of God has been trimmed down to fit the limits of your human mind?

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!
Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!
Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

 

[Contarini]

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!
Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!
Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

I understand that that seems more like idolatry to you. That’s the starting point of the conversation.

I’m asking you to think about the nature of idolatry. Isn’t idolatry bringing God down to a level we can understand? Identifying God with a visible image not rooted in God’s self-revelation is the most obvious way of doing that. (The Christian argument is that God has revealed Himself in Jesus. The traditional Christian–i.e., Catholic and Orthodox as opposed to Protestant–argument is that images of Jesus and the saints who loved Jesus are appropriate because they are based in that revelation. But we aren’t debating the question of icons/images or saint veneration here. We’re talking about basic Christian beliefs about God’s revelation of Himself in Jesus.)

But here’s the point I’m making: isn’t it a form of idolatry to say “God’s nature can’t possibly be mysterious or hard for me to understand”? As others on this forum have noted, we often hear Muslims make arguments about God’s sovereignty and inscrutability when talking about God’s will. Are those other Muslims just wrong? Or do you believe, for some reason, that God’s nature is easy to understand while God’s will is inscrutable? How does that make sense? Doesn’t will follow nature? Wouldn’t one expect God’s nature to be more mysterious than his acts?

Here’s the basic point I’m making in this part of the discussion: ideas can be idols just as well as visual images. In fact they are more dangerous because they are harder to recognize as idols, and they are more necessary. We can worship God without physical images, but we can’t worship God without having some idea of God. Therefore, we are all tempted to substitute our idea of God for the reality. (Again, that’s one reason why Christians believe in the Incarnation. God became incarnate as a man to give us something other than ideas, because ideas are the most subtle and dangerous idols of all.)

Please address this point instead of just repeating standard points of Islamic polemic. We all get that you think our understanding of God is idolatrous. Now please answer the objection that your insistence on God being easy to understand is idolatrous.

Edwin

 

[dronald]

Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

More or less than kissing a stone?

 

[Amoon]

Now please answer the objection that your insistence on God being easy to understand is idolatrous.

Edwin

Do I really have to explain “Why God is easy to understand”? Why do you think God is difficult to understand?

We all agree that Abraham, Moses, and the other Prophets of God were great examples of Humankind who were sent to guide people to God. Why can’t Jesus be a great example of mankind without being god himself!

Isn’t God capable of sending a man to do this mission!

The nature of God is simple and also unchanged as there was always one God and all the Prophets taught that. Unfortunately, you are the ones who are trying to complicate it!

 

[Novocastrian]

Why do you think God is difficult to understand?

Here’s an example. Both Muslims and Christians believe that God is all-merciful and all-just. Mercy and judgement are seen as being identical when both are perfect.

This is almost impossible for humans to understand, because for non-divine, non-omniscient, non-omnipotent beings, mercy is something which tempers justice, and justice is something which is occasionally administered without mercy. What appears difficult for us to understand is really God’s simplicity; we can’t cope with the simplicity of God’s justice and mercy each being maximally perfect.

 

[Techno2000]

Do I really have to explain “Why God is easy to understand”? Why do you think God is difficult to understand?

We all agree that Abraham, Moses, and the other Prophets of God were great examples of Humankind who were sent to guide people to God. Why can’t Jesus be a great example of mankind without being god himself!

Isn’t God capable of sending a man to do this mission!

The nature of God is simple and also unchanged as there was always one God and all the Prophets taught that. Unfortunately, you are the ones who are trying to complicate it!

Is it complicated to believe that Jesus and Mary are the New Adam and The New Eve ?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Do I really have to explain “Why God is easy to understand”? Why do you think God is difficult to understand?

We all agree that Abraham, Moses, and the other Prophets of God were great examples of Humankind who were sent to guide people to God. Why can’t Jesus be a great example of mankind without being god himself!

Isn’t God capable of sending a man to do this mission!

The nature of God is simple and also unchanged as there was always one God and all the Prophets taught that. Unfortunately, you are the ones who are trying to complicate it!

I thought there were Islamic theological schools of thought that claimed God was unknowable. Is this not true?

 

[Randy_Carson]

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!

Think this through.

If God chose to enter into His creation by becoming a man like us, there is nothing idolatrous about that. There is no idol. We worship the one, true Creator God…just as you do.

Given the proper definition of the word, “idol”, please tell me where the idolatry is found in our belief?

Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!

I notice, Amoon, that you have an avatar next to your name…it appears to be a photo of a small child…yours, I presume?

Why would you have a photo of a loved one? Could it be that when you see that photo, you think happy thoughts about your child and that the photo helps you to keep him or her in your mind throughout your day?

Could it be that having a picture of Jesus would do the same for Christians who see Him as the second person of the God-head? Would a crucifix remind of how steep a price he paid for us?

Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

Is there any real difference between reverencing the statue of St. Peter at the Vatican and walking seven times around the Ka’aba?

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...nmGoDt2-xL8wXWoa_gWX57XFFEr-_6YCCrTujWFAXGL3Q

And why are there dozens of photos online of Muslims eager to touch the Black Stone?

http://cesidian.ch/kaaba-stone-small.png

The Black Stone (Arabic: الحجر الأسود‎ al-Ḥajar al-Aswad) is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building toward which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is revered by Muslims as an Islamic relic which, according to Muslim tradition, dates back to the time of Adam and Eve.[1]

The stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. According to Islamic tradition, it was set intact into the Kaaba’s wall by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the year 605 A.D., five years before his first revelation. Since then it has been broken into a number of fragments and is now cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of millions of pilgrims. Islamic tradition holds that it fell from Heaven to show Adam and Eve where to build an altar. Although it has often been described as a meteorite, this hypothesis is now uncertain.[2]

Muslim pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the tawaf ritual of the hajj. Many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that Islamic tradition records that it received from Muhammad. If they cannot reach it, they point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

Is this idolatry, Amoon? Or are you being hypocritical?

 

[meltzerboy]

I thought there were Islamic theological schools of thought that claimed God was unknowable. Is this not true?

Perhaps the unknowable G-d should be taken to mean in a literal sense incorporeal and spiritual, as well as differing in cognitive, emotional, and behavioral qualities. If G-d is pure spirit, He is unknowable to mankind in the sense that He cannot be seen, He has no shape, no form, no matter. The objection that Muslims have to the Christian depiction of G-d may very well be in conceiving of Him in human (male) form, with a body, a shape, a physical appearance, a voice, a gender, an earthly incarnation. This depiction makes G-d knowable to human perception, and is thus perhaps thought to diminish His spiritual essence, nature, and mystery.

With regard to the question of simplicity and complexity, one might ask which is which: does G-d Incarnate represent G-d’s complexity or does it represent His simplicity by conceiving of Him in human terms?