Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

[oldcatholicguy]

Perhaps the unknowable G-d should be taken to mean in a literal sense incorporeal and spiritual, as well as differing in cognitive, emotional, and behavioral qualities. If G-d is pure spirit, He is unknowable to mankind in the sense that He cannot be seen, He has no shape, no form, no matter. The objection that Muslims have to the Christian depiction of G-d may very well be in conceiving of Him in human (male) form, with a body, a shape, a physical appearance, a voice, a gender, an earthly incarnation. This depiction makes G-d knowable to human perception, and is thus perhaps thought to diminish His spiritual essence and nature.

With regard to the question of simplicity and complexity, one might ask which is which: does G-d Incarnate represent G-d’s complexity or does it represent His simplicity by conceiving of Him in human terms?

I think it’s a bit of both. There are aspects of God that we can comprehend and there are aspects that we can hardly imagine about let alone comprehend. A poor analogy would be a two dimensional object (us) trying to understand a three dimensional object (God). We can understand His two dimensional aspects (here because He gives us the tools to do so) and we can see hints at His three dimensional aspects, but since we are a two dimensional object we can’t actually understand the these.

If I understand the other poster’s position, they are making a claim that Islam holds that two dimensional us can fully understand three dimensional God (which I believe isn’t actually what Islam teaches about the ability to understand God) and that Christianity’s view of God having three dimensional aspects that we can see hints at but can’t fully understand (like the Trinity) is wrong and illogical (the basis for this entire discussion that seems to have been abandoned).

 

[Seraphim73]

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!
Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!
Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

Again, things which have taken place are expressed by images for the remembrance either of a wonder, or an honour, or dishonour, or good or evil, to help those who look upon it in after times that we may avoid evils and imitate goodness. It is of two kinds, the written image in books, as when God had the law inscribed on tablets, and when He enjoined that the lives of holy men should be recorded and sensible memorials be preserved in [13] remembrance; as, for instance, the earthen jar and the staff in the ark. (Ex. 34.28; Heb. 9.4) So now we preserve in writing the images and the good deeds of the past. Either, therefore, take away images altogether and be out of harmony with God, who made these regulations, or receive them with the language and in the manner which befits them. In speaking of the manner let us go into the question of worship. - Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images, St John of Damascus

The Koran is viewed with the utmost reverence in Islam. The words are studied and often memorized with great reverence and care. Is the Koran itself not an image made of matter? As St John points out above, are the letters written in the Koran not images?

 

[Contarini]

Do I really have to explain “Why God is easy to understand”?

Certainly. We are talking about the Creator of the universe, the source of all being, the one who says to things “Be” and they are. Why on earth would you expect God to be easy to understand? It’s just bizarre.

Why do you think God is difficult to understand?

Because God is God and I’m not.

To claim that God is easy to understand is to claim that your mind is equal to His. Which is blasphemy and idolatry.

We all agree that Abraham, Moses, and the other Prophets of God were great examples of Humankind who were sent to guide people to God. Why can’t Jesus be a great example of mankind without being god himself!

Isn’t God capable of sending a man to do this mission!

Because, again, God is God and we are not. You underestimate how far God is above us.

God has sent many human beings to teach people. Of course if all that is needed is teaching, then humans sent by God can do that. But the gulf between us and God can’t be bridged by teaching. God has bridged it by sharing our nature, so that we might share in His.

The nature of God is simple and also unchanged as there was always one God and all the Prophets taught that. Unfortunately, you are the ones who are trying to complicate it!

It all boils down to whether God is God or whether God is just like us but bigger and better. You seem to believe the latter.

And I ask you again: isn’t this in fact the real idolatry?

Edwin

 

[Bob_Crowley]

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!
Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!
Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

We don’t worship statues or any other idol.

Have you got a photo of your family at home? It’s a reminder of your family, isn’t it? The photograph is a 2 dimensional representation of something that is real and living.

Same thing about statues - they’re reminders of something real and supernatural. And a lot of them go back to when most people couldn’t read. Same thing with the mosaics, the stained glass windows and so on. In an earlier age when most people didn’t have the luxury of a formal education, these things told the stories about people and events in the Bible.

We worship God, and God alone.

It might be an idea if you did some reading so you at least had some understanding of what you’re talking about when it comes to the Catholic Church, instead of just repeating like a parrot what you’ve been told by other people who likewise have no real understanding of Christianity or the Catholic Church.

 

[robwar]

What seems idolatry for me is believing in a man god and a mother of god!
Having images and statues of god is more like idolatry!
Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

Is this a discussion point or an accusation which even though a number of poster gave very well reasoned and logical explanations, you are probably not going to accept. I’m not sure what explanation will work for you, your mind seems rather set.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The discussion misleads a comparison of God’s Essence which does not come down to us with God’s presence revealed in the fullness of times in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

The question of which religion is more logical has no comparison. When Islam is based on the things relating to the carnal understanding of things, revealed to a man by an angel, while Christianity is based on the divine revelations of God manifested in the presence of God who raises the carnal mind to faith in the eternal spiritual realities from which all things visible come from the invisible.

It would appear the faith of a Muslim of Islam, that It would be impossible for God who would reveal His presence in the cool of the day with Adam, or God’s presence in a burning bush with Moses, or in the Shekinah cloud by day and fire by night in the desert, or His presence revealed in the Ark of the Covenant, not to mention God’s presence in His Word, when God inspired the prophets to write the revelations of God.

It is not impossible or difficult for God to reveal His presence in the Son of Man the incarnate flesh of Jesus Christ, or God’s presence revealed in Eucharist.

The logical carnal discussion for which a Muslim of Islam could understand would better be discussed about which prophet is the true prophet sent by God, to give final revelation to humanity? Jesus the Jewish Messiah revealed in the Son of Man who was preannounced by all the prophets of God and foretold of all the things Jesus would do. Or, Muhammad the prophet of Islam who is never preannounced of his coming.

Islam makes the claim of a Isa Jesus, which Islam cannot prove Islam’s Isa Jesus existed in the first century from a seventh century prophet who was never present.

Logic, reason, faith and history records Jesus Christ, Sent by God the Father, was born of a virgin, walked on water, gave sight to a man born blind, healed leper’s, healed the sick with just His Word, raised the dead to life, forgave sin’s publicly, revealed divine revelation from heaven by His passion and crucifixion, was buried and arose from the dead after three days and revealed His bodily resurrection before eyewitnesses and ascended into heaven. Logic reveals three witnesses Body, blood and water recorded by three witnesses Christians, Pagan Rome, and Jewish historians. Jesus revealed to fulfill the divine law and the prophets one is to love God with all ones heart, mind and strength, to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemy. To live by the sword is to die by the sword.

Logic, reason, faith and history records Muhammad conceived by man and a woman. Who is given a divine revelation indirectly from an Angel for Muhammad to Quran=recite according to Islamic sources alone. Muhammad performed no divine miracles followed by heavenly signs to confirm any divine revelation from God in heaven, other than the claims from what is written in the Quran. Muhammad using the tools of war and killing removed false idols among new converts to Islam and in Mecca except a Rock that is reverenced highly by Muslims. Muhammad used war and the spilling of blood to justify Islamic laws to govern Muslims in obedience to the Islamic faith. Muhammad died and lives no longer, except in the memory of the Quran. Muhammad’s teaching reveals a social order of peace among Muslims with the authority to deliver Islamic divine justice to those disobedient to Islam and to non-Muslims living among Muslims and the power to give physical punishment to infidels of Islam.

So which teaching is more logical?

Jesus= to love God and love neighbor, forgive one another and love your enemies, confirmed by miracles and signs from heaven before eyewitnesses. Proclaim this good news to every nation, tongue, people and tribe in all times till Jesus returns.

Muhammad= to serve God, Muslims serve and love Muslims, Kill the enemies of Islam, and apply the Islamic laws to non-Muslims. Convert the world to Islam in time of peace and in time of war.

Which prophet reveals divine revelation and is more logical to follow? The prophet’s of Islam, Muhammad and Isa Jesus recorded by Islam in the Seventh century.

Or Jesus born from the Davidic King lineage in the Son of Man revealed and historically recorded by Pagan Rome, Jews and Christians from the first century when Jesus walked the earth?

Peace be with you

 

[Amoon]

I notice, Amoon, that you have an avatar next to your name…it appears to be a photo of a small child…yours, I presume?

Why would you have a photo of a loved one? Could it be that when you see that photo, you think happy thoughts about your child and that the photo helps you to keep him or her in your mind throughout your day?

Could it be that having a picture of Jesus would do the same for Christians who see Him as the second person of the God-head? Would a crucifix remind of how steep a price he paid for us?

It is just a picture I found on the internet!

But does this not contradict with your own teaching?
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

I don’t need an image or statues to remind me of God because of many reasons:

1- God has forbidden this
2- That what idol worshippers do
3- Quran 3:190 “Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding”.

Is there any real difference between reverencing the statue of St. Peter at the Vatican and walking seven times around the Ka’aba?

And why are there dozens of photos online of Muslims eager to touch the Black Stone?

Is this idolatry, Amoon? Or are you being hypocritical?

Even though you haven’t answer why would Christians do such an act in Vatican, for Muslims, the black stone is not to be worshipped and it does not do any good or harm. The black stone was sent from heaven to Abraham and his son Ismail to build the Kaaba, a house of God on that particular place on earth to be a place for worshipping God.

Quran 2:125
And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], “Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer].”

So the act of worshiping God around the Kaaba is not idolatry, but it is a place of worship that was built by Abraham and Ismail by the guidance of God.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

It is just a picture I found on the internet!

But does this not contradict with your own teaching?

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

I don’t need an image or statues to remind me of God because of many reasons:

1- God has forbidden this
2- That what idol worshippers do
3- Quran 3:190 “Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding”.

Even though you haven’t answer why would Christians do such an act in Vatican, for Muslims, the black stone is not to be worshipped and it does not do any good or harm. The black stone was sent from heaven to Abraham and his son Ismail to build the Kaaba, a house of God on that particular place on earth to be a place for worshipping God.

Quran 2:125
And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], “Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer].”

So the act of worshiping God around the Kaaba is not idolatry, but it is a place of worship that was built by Abraham and Ismail by the guidance of God.

Read the link at the bottom, and then come back to us. You’ve quoted one Biblical verse, and not noticed that in places **God commanded the Israelites to create graven images **- the serpent held by Moses to counteract the plague, cherubim on the two ends of the mercy seat, cherubim covering the ark of the covenant with their wings, and so on.

You need to understand the commandment in context. At the time, Israel was surrounded by pagan cultures, and there was a strong temptation to run after the same “gods” and their idols as the surrounding people.

But Christ has now come. And I fail to see the difference between Moslems going seven times around the black stone, which apparently was venerated even in pre-Islamic pagan times, according to Wikipedia, with some Moslems trying to kiss it, and Catholics venerating various items in the Vatican. It’s somewhat hypocritical of you to accuse us of something, when your religious adherents do the very same thing yourselves.

That’s just plain hypocrisy.

The Black Stone (Arabic: الحجر الأسود‎ al-Ḥajar al-Aswad) is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building toward which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is revered by Muslims as an Islamic relic which, according to Muslim tradition, dates back to the time of Adam and Eve.[1]

The stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. According to Islamic tradition, it was set intact into the Kaaba’s wall by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the year 605 A.D., five years before his first revelation. Since then it has been broken into a number of fragments and is now cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of millions of pilgrims. Islamic tradition holds that it fell from Heaven to show Adam and Eve where to build an altar. Although it has often been described as a meteorite, this hypothesis is now uncertain.[2]

Muslim pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the tawaf ritual of the hajj. Many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that Islamic tradition records that it received from Muhammad.[3] If they cannot reach it, they point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba.[4]

For a more detailed explanation of our attitude to statues and the like, read the following link, and then come back to us with your accusations.

catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

 

[Bob_Crowley]

As a personal testimony, I’m a Catholic convert from the Protestant tradition, where they tend to be a bit more literal about not worshipping idols (allegedly).

I’ve been Catholic for nearly 20 years, and I’ve pretty much gone to the same church most of that time, or at least the same parish.

Now in the main church in our parish (there are 3 churches), there is a wooden statue of Mary, some plaques that illustrate what we call the stations of the cross, a cross itself, the alter, a photograph or painting of St. Mary of the Cross (Mary MacKillop) who is Australia’s only saint, and that’s about it, unless you count the tabernacle in a side room.

Not once, in nearly 20 years, have I seen anybody kow-tow to the statue of Mary, or the stations of the cross, or even the cross itself, although at Easter we venerate (note - not worship) the cross, or the photograph of St. Mary of the Cross. They are reminders of elements of our Christian faith - the suffering of Christ, the role of His Mother, the holiness of Mary MacKillop, the death of Christ on the cross, suffering for our sins.

I sure don’t worship them - I can assure you of that. And if you were to speak to any other member of our Catholic Church, they’d tell you exactly the same thing.

So stop judging us.

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Catholics rubbing the feet of statues in Vatican seems even more like idolatry!

Even though you haven’t answer why would Christians do such an act in Vatican, for Muslims, the black stone is not to be worshipped and it does not do any good or harm. The black stone was sent from heaven to Abraham and his son Ismail to build the Kaaba, a house of God on that particular place on earth to be a place for worshipping God.

So the act of worshiping God around the Kaaba is not idolatry, but it is a place of worship that was built by Abraham and Ismail by the guidance of God.

I’m going to focus on this for now and get back to the “graven images” later when I have more time. First, I have no objection to Muslims worshiping God at the Kaaba; we have our holy places, you have yours. God be praised everywhere!

But why is it, Amoon, that Catholics touching the feet of a stature of Peter in the Vatican bothers you, but touching the black stone in the Kaaba does not?

The statue is an inanimate object, it is not God. The stone is an inanimate object, it is not God.

Catholic pilgrims may not make any effort to touch that statue at all since IT IS JUST A STATUE, but Muslims, apparently, make a great effort to maneuver into a position to touch or kiss the stone during one of their seven passages around the Kaaba. Further, if the reports are accurate, if you cannot touch the stone, you will at least blow a kiss at it.

Your own people are touching an object out of reverence…the same thing Catholics do.

So, I ask again:

ARE YOU BEING HYPOCRITICAL?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

It is just a picture I found on the internet!

But does this not contradict with your own teaching?

You have 3 rather outstanding problems with your position regarding images and idols. In reverse order-
3. Your interpretation of Jewish law and Scriptures doesn’t actually agree with Jewish theology and tradition.
2. Your interpretation of Christian law and Scriptures doesn’t actually agree with Christian theology and tradition.

1. Your interpretation of Islamic law doesn’t actually agree with Islamic theology and tradition.

What you have done is taken one interpretation of each that agrees with your own opinion and presented them as the actual teachings of each faith. Did you even bother to review the link I placed several pages back to the history of Muslims creating images of Muhammad and doing so without actually violating the teachings of Islam?

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is just a picture I found on the internet!

Okay. Weird, but okay.

But does this not contradict with your own teaching?

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

The only image that would even remotely qualify for discussion would be a crucifix. As I said previously, I’ll discuss this at length at a later time.

However, there are a couple of points to be made here:

1. Since the Bible is corrupted according to you, how do you know this was ever a command of God?
2. You do know that a crucifix or a picture of a dove (common symbol for the Holy Spirit) are not actually being worshiped, right? Those THINGS are not our God, right?

I don’t need an image or statues to remind me of God because of many reasons:

Nor do I NEED them.

Nor do I need photos of my grandparents (all dead now) nor my parents nor my wife nor my kids when they were much younger.

But I have them as reminders of those I love.

Now, let me ask you this:

Adhan is called out by a muezzin from the mosque five times a day.

Why?

Why do you need to be reminded to pray at specific times if you are so attentive to God?

See my point?

We have the crucifix to draw our minds to God and Jesus’ death and resurrection. You have the adhan to draw your attention back to God.

Two different means to accomplish the same thing.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But does this not contradict with your own teaching?

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

First, notice that you have omitted the full context of that verse:

Exodus 20:3-6
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Many non-Catholic Christians use the passage you refer to, Exodus 20:4-5, to “prove” to Catholics that making “any graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath” is detestable to God. But when this passage is read in context, it is not the making of images that is condemned but the worship of them.

In fact, five chapters later God commands the Israelites to make two golden statues of angels as part of the lid of the ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:17-19). That’s an image of something from heaven. Then, in 1 Kings 6, God commands that graven images of flowers and palm trees be made, as well as 15-foot tall statues of cherubim. And in Numbers 21, God commands that a bronze serpent be made and uses it to heal the Israelites. It was preserved for 800 years and then destroyed only when some began to worship it (2 Kgs 18:4).

Catholics do not worship statues, because only God is deserving of adoration. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is adamant in affirming this (CCC 2112–2114). When a Catholic bows to a statue, he is not worshiping it any more than King Solomon worshiped Bathsheba when he bowed to her in 1 Kings 2:19. In other words, the honor given to images does not detract from the honor that is due to God. After all, if one member of the body is honored, the others should share in its joy (1 Cor 12:26).

If someone enters your house, he should expect to find a picture of your mother. So, when someone walks into a Catholic Church—the household of God—he should not be surprised to find a picture of the mother of God, along with the rest of the heavenly family!

In giving the Israelites a beautiful temple strewn with images (1 Kgs 6), God acknowledged the reason why he gave us our senses: to use them to worship him in spirit and truth.

Source:
catholic.com/quickquestions/how-do-crucifixes-fit-in-with-the-old-testament-prohibition-of-graven-images

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m going to focus on this for now and get back to the “graven images” later when I have more time. First, I have no objection to Muslims worshiping God at the Kaaba; we have our holy places, you have yours. God be praised everywhere!

But why is it, Amoon, that Catholics touching the feet of a stature of Peter in the Vatican bothers you, but touching the black stone in the Kaaba does not?

The statue is an inanimate object, it is not God. The stone is an inanimate object, it is not God.

Catholic pilgrims may not make any effort to touch that statue at all since IT IS JUST A STATUE, but Muslims, apparently, make a great effort to maneuver into a position to touch or kiss the stone during one of their seven passages around the Kaaba. Further, if the reports are accurate, if you cannot touch the stone, you will at least blow a kiss at it.

Your own people are touching an object out of reverence…the same thing Catholics do.

So, I ask again:

ARE YOU BEING HYPOCRITICAL?

And in the course of prayer at home and in the synagogue, Jews kiss the tallit (prayer shawl), tzitzit (fringes of the tallit), Torah mantle, Torah scroll, siddur (prayerbook), as well as the mezuzah (Torah scroll on the doorpost and every room of the home except the bathroom) when entering and leaving the home. AFAIK, none of these objects, even the Word of G-d (Torah), is G-d Himself.

 

[MartinJordan]

And in the course of prayer at home and in the synagogue, Jews kiss the tallit (prayer shawl), tzitzit (fringes of the tallit), Torah mantle, Torah scroll, siddur (prayerbook), as well as the mezuzah (Torah scroll on the doorpost and every room of the home except the bathroom) when entering and leaving the home. AFAIK, none of these objects, even the Word of G-d (Torah), is G-d Himself.

MJ

 

[Amoon]

Many non-Catholic Christians use the passage you refer to, Exodus 20:4-5, to “prove” to Catholics that making “any graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath” is detestable to God. But when this passage is read in context, it is not the making of images that is condemned but the worship of them.

Then I have to say that I misunderstood this point. So it is ok to make images and statues of god because they remind you of god but of course you do not worship them. I believe it is a misinterpretation of the verse, and I doubt that god would allow making images and statues of him!

Ok let me ask you this, you believe that Jesus has died for our sins for three days, does this make god the father die automatically as they are one?
Now I can see that there are three possibilities here:
1- There was no god running the show for three days because god died!
2- god the son died but the father was alive, so we have two gods!
3- god did not die, so this is a lie!

 

[Techno2000]

1- There was no god running the show for three days because god died!
2- god the son died but the father was alive, so we have two gods!
3- god did not die, so this is a lie!

A spirit can never die, only the flesh part of Jesus died.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[Randy_Carson]

Then I have to say that I misunderstood this point. So it is ok to make images and statues of god because they remind you of god but of course you do not worship them. I believe it is a misinterpretation of the verse, and I doubt that god would allow making images and statues of him!

Ok let me ask you this, you believe that Jesus has died for our sins for three days, does this make god the father die automatically as they are one?
Now I can see that there are three possibilities here:
1- There was no god running the show for three days because god died!
2- god the son died but the father was alive, so we have two gods!
3- god did not die, so this is a lie!

What happens when you die, Amoon? Does Islam teach that you cease to exist completely? Or does your body cease to function while your spirit or soul continues to exist and goes to Paradise with Allah?

Only the second person of the trinity, Jesus, became man. Therefore, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. However, God the Son did not cease to exist any more than you are I cease to exist in our spirits.

Catholics (and many other Christians) believe that Jesus descended to the place where those righteous souls who had died prior to Jesus were waiting for their redemption.

Ephesians 4:7-9
7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,
“When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive;
he gave gifts to his people.”
9 (When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

“Lower parts of the earth” is the reference to hell (not Gehenna the place of fiery torment from which there is no redemption) which was thought by the Jews to be a pleasant place of waiting.

God is a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.
Therefore, Jesus is God.
Jesus died upon the cross.
Therefore, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, died upon the cross.
Therefore, God died upon the cross.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Then I have to say that I misunderstood this point. So it is ok to make images and statues of god because they remind you of god but of course you do not worship them. I believe it is a misinterpretation of the verse, and I doubt that god would allow making images and statues of him!

Ok let me ask you this, you believe that Jesus has died for our sins for three days, does this make god the father die automatically as they are one?
Now I can see that there are three possibilities here:
1- There was no god running the show for three days because god died!
2- god the son died but the father was alive, so we have two gods!
3- god did not die, so this is a lie!

For a start, we don’t make statues of God. That’s simply impossible. We’re not that stupid.

We do make statues of Jesus Christ, although these are symbolic more than than accurate representations, since we don’t have a painting, photograph or any other record of what he looked like. So these images are stylised.

But they point to the fact our faith is in the work of Jesus Christ, God the Son paying the penalty for my sins, our sins (and yours!) on the cross. Woe betide anyone who thinks this was a cheap price for God to pay!

We’ve said ad infinitum that God is one God, three persons. We’ve used the human Trinitarian example to show that it’s possible for three distinct entities - body, mind and spirit - to be clear and different entities, yet work so closely together that the human being has only a single sense of being “I”.

In a similar way that’s how the Godhead works.

God is love, and His love is expressed in the first instance as a perfect unity of three Persons, so closely bound together that for all intents and purposes they act as one, just as your own mind, body and spirit act as one ie. “you”. You yourself are a trinity, made in the image of God, so you’ve got no excuse for rebelling against this self-revelation, built right into your own existence.

So when God the Son took on human flesh for a short period for a specific purpose at a specific time chosen by God, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were still in action, hence God was still in control. When Christ ascended, then He resumed the "

glory I had with you before the world began

". (John 17:5 NIV)

 

[meltzerboy]

What happens when you die, Amoon? Does Islam teach that you cease to exist completely? Or does your body cease to function while your spirit or soul continues to exist and goes to Paradise with Allah?

Only the second person of the trinity, Jesus, became man. Therefore, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. However, God the Son did not cease to exist any more than you are I cease to exist in our spirits.

Catholics (and many other Christians) believe that Jesus descended to the place where those righteous souls who had died prior to Jesus were waiting for their redemption.

Ephesians 4:7-9
7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,
“When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive;
he gave gifts to his people.”
9 (When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

“Lower parts of the earth” is the reference to hell (not Gehenna the place of fiery torment from which there is no redemption) which was thought by the Jews to be a pleasant place of waiting.

God is a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.
Therefore, Jesus is God.
Jesus died upon the cross.
Therefore, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, died upon the cross.
Therefore, God died upon the cross.

When you say that Jesus descended to hell, that place of shadows, or Sheol, do you mean the Son of G-d, the Divinity, descended there, or Jesus only in His human nature? If it is the Son of G-d (fully human and fully divine) Who descended to hell, was He the only Person Who descended? IOW, did G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit also descend to hell since the Persons of the Trinity, though distinct, are not separated from one another? Also, what does “descend” mean for G-d, Who is omnipresent and outside of time and space?