Islam Converts

[dzheremi]

**
dzhereme, please know that it would not be fair to name your book (injeel) as Bushra because it it means good news in Arabic. The name of the book in the Quran would have to be whatever that book was being called. That as you said had Greek connotation and not original Araimic name. No problem.

Your religion had shifted to Greece. See the word Christ and Christianity etc. So Quran is right in calling the bible as Injeel. **

This is an interesting reply, Planten. Thank you. But I wonder if you have a different perspective than Sister Amy, since you are calling the Injil a book but Sister Amy insists it is not.

But still, your reply is very interesting, since at least it recognizes that the “Injil” is so called in deference (or via some tenuous connection) to the Hellenized Christian world, and not some “mystery” as Sister Amy thinks it is.

Also, you had raised a point why the christians are called nasaara. You felt that it was due to the place name Nazarath or because of Jesus being Nazarene. That is not the case. The christians are called nasaara because they were the the helpers of the man of God i.e. Jesus.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Less than 5 minutes a week on average, which is probably 5 minutes more than necessary.

Whereas the Qur’an I will read far more often, because the Qur’an (unlike the Bible) is the revealed Word of God, eternally and perfectly preserved. I want to know it, cover to cover, every surah, every ayah, every last letter by memory. How much time do you spend reading the Qur’an?

No, the Bible is the revealed Word of God, the Quran is the opinion of mad man who thought it was okay to sleep with a 9 year old while he was 53. Think about what youre saying. The Koran might be perfectly preserved but that dosent mean it came from God. You cant even think outisde the koran to think logicaly. Whereas the Bible has been written by so many authors through so many years and its STILL preserved. We don`t rely on one man, but we rely on true Prophets that loved and prechead the oness of God. While Mohammed had an alter-ego who justified everything that goes against Holiness.

May Jesus Christ have mercy on you…

 

[planten]

No, the Bible is the revealed Word of God, the Quran is the opinion of mad man who thought it was okay to sleep with a 9 year old while he was 53. Think about what youre saying. The Koran might be perfectly preserved but that dosent mean it came from God. You cant even think outisde the koran to think logicaly. Whereas the Bible has been written by so many authors through so many years and its STILL preserved. We don`t rely on one man, but we rely on true Prophets that loved and prechead the oness of God. While Mohammed had an alter-ego who justified everything that goes against Holiness.

May Jesus Christ have mercy on you…

Ben, you have gone on errand. It was useless to start an abuse. If that is your catholicism then may Allah help the mankind to keep far away from such malicious, abusive, irrational, full of hatred Catholicism. We do not need any mercy of Jesus. Jesus himself needs the Mercy of God.

 

[planten]

** Hypatia, you have described it very well. We see that the christians have lost all interest in social matters. They have given an open licence for its followers to do what they like. That is also because of liberal laws of the secular world.

There does not sem to be any future for the christianity in the world. Most of The christians do not follow their religion. They are name sake christians enjoying themselves in pubs and casinos, in film theatres etc. The real practicing christians are very few.

The Muslims have also lost the way in many matters of faith and good behaviour. But that is not the fault of Islam or Quran.**

 

[Benjamin8o8]

** Hypatia, you have described it very well. We see that the christians have lost all interest in social matters. They have given an open licence for its followers to do what they like. That is also because of liberal laws of the secular world.

There does not sem to be any future for the christianity in the world. Most of The christians do not follow their religion. They are name sake christians enjoying themselves in pubs and casinos, in film theatres etc. The real practicing christians are very few.

The Muslims have also lost the way in many matters of faith and good behaviour. But that is not the fault of Islam or Quran.**

But that is also not the fault of Christianity or the Holy Bible why we have bad Christians.

 

[bbarrick8383]

** Hypatia, you have described it very well. We see that the christians have lost all interest in social matters. They have given an open licence for its followers to do what they like. That is also because of liberal laws of the secular world.

There does not sem to be any future for the christianity in the world. Most of The christians do not follow their religion. They are name sake christians enjoying themselves in pubs and casinos, in film theatres etc. The real practicing christians are very few.

The Muslims have also lost the way in many matters of faith and good behaviour. But that is not the fault of Islam or Quran.**

So once you become Muslim you lose all free will to do what you like?

The future of Christianity is strong, will always be strong. I knew muslims in the military that acted just like a lot of Christians do. Sometimes being human we make mistakes, fall away from the religion we choose for awhile, there may be no ryme or reason why but some people do it on occasion. It’s good to know that you are Holier than thou, I’m sure mohamed is proud.

BTW, whats wrong with a pub or movie theatre? Muslims dont know how to control themselves?

That last quote makes no sense, Christians fall away because of Christianity, but Muslims dont fall away because of their faith?

 

[Bill_Pick]

**dzhereme, we muslims do not believe that jesus was given a book in written form. However, jesus was sent. Then the knowledge of the book (injeel) followed. He was a teacher. He taught to the people. That was the book, whether dictated to be written or not. That was the book given to jesus. That was the truth. We muslims believe in whatever was revealed to moses and jesus and muhammad.

That knowledge may be available with the jews and the christians and the muslims. The name of our religion (islam) is written in the quran. The name given to us is written in the quran. That name is muslims. (not muhammadans).

The language of the quran is written in the quran. That language is said to be arabic (clear arabic= arabi un mubeen).

There is no mention of trinity, christianity, christians in the bible. There is no mention of the original language in which the message was revealed to jesus. A copy of the bible in the original language is not available.

For some reasons, the christians deny that jesus had any book or gave any book. We do not believe that. In as much as he was a prophet of god, he was given the messages. Of course there was nothing about any new law. The message was to strengthen the message and teachings of moses. Yet a message was there and we believe in that what was given (revealed) to jesus from god.**

remember Jesus is god

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

whats wrong with a pub or movie theatre? Muslims dont know how to control themselves?

We must not give devil any chance to mislead us , right ?

 

[bbarrick8383]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

We must not give devil any chance to mislead us , right ?

Right, but only you know your ability to control yourself. If you cant walk out of a pub after one drink then you should not go. Religion does not need to tell us what we can or cant do but what we should or shouldnt do. It is up to us to make that sacrifice, it is up to us to moderate what we do in life, it is up to us to use common sense to make the right choices. It is the individuals relationship with God that matters.

 

[planten]

Right, but only you know your ability to control yourself. If you cant walk out of a pub after one drink then you should not go. Religion does not need to tell us what we can or cant do but what we should or shouldnt do. It is up to us to make that sacrifice, it is up to us to moderate what we do in life, it is up to us to use common sense to make the right choices. It is the individuals relationship with God that matters.

** bbarrick, please leave some room for the shepherd too, to guard and guide the wayward sheep**.

 

[bbarrick8383]

** bbarrick, please leave some room for the shepherd too, to guard and guide the wayward sheep**.

Jesus is my Shepherd, I know that when I wander and do not find my way back alone that he will be there to lead me back to his flock.

He does not tell me that I can not wander, he lets me wander to learn that the safest place to be is by his side.

Just like I let my children wander, to learn what they can on their own. They will ultimately know that I am there to keep them safe, not to control them but to teach them.

 

[planten]

Jesus is my Shepherd, I know that when I wander and do not find my way back alone that he will be there to lead me back to his flock.

He does not tell me that I can not wander, he lets me wander to learn that the safest place to be is by his side.

Just like I let my children wander, to learn what they can on their own. They will ultimately know that I am there to keep them safe, not to control them but to teach them.

**Please know what I believe:

Mankind could survive by eating the leaves of the trees and would not have perished. But it needed guidance from the creator God Al-Mighty. Mankind could not survive without guidance.

That is why, God, out of His Infinite Mercy arranged a system of prophets whom he sent to guide the mankind. Different prophets came in different countries at different times. There was no nation (people) to whom a prophet was not sent. Prophets were sent to every country (People, Tribes). They told the right path to their people. they acted as a shepherd for their people.

If they just stood around and let the sheep wander off into different fields they could not be the right shepherds. I repeat "mankind could survive on plants and leaves and fruit of trees. But mankind could not survive and progress without divine guidance.

Please consider my points. I agree with you that jesus is your shepherd. Not only your but a shepherd for many of the mankind.**

 

[bbarrick8383]

Mankind could survive by eating the leaves of the trees and would not have perished. But it needed guidance from the creator God Al-Mighty. Mankind could not survive without guidance.

God guided man but never controlled man. Which is what the Islamic faith really seems to be about. Man, having dominance and control over another man.

That is why, God, out of His Infinite Mercy arranged a system of prophets whom he sent to guide the mankind. Different prophets came in different countries at different times. There was no nation (people) to whom a prophet was not sent. Prophets were sent to every country (People, Tribes). They told the right path to their people. they acted as a shepherd for their people.

This does not make sense to me.

If they just stood around and let the sheep wander off into different fields they could not be the right shepherds. I repeat "mankind could survive on plants and leaves and fruit of trees. But mankind could not survive and progress without divine guidance.

They do not just stand around and let them, they do their best to hold the flock togethor. But figuratively speaking we will wander regardless of how good the shepherd is. Lets make sure we keep the analogy in a figurative sense. Again guidance is not control, I can give you directions, but its up to you to follow them.

 

[Pater_Familias]

**Pater Familias, please know that God did not have any son (really). But it could be symbolically, spiritually. So please talk in real terms only that we use in daily life.

Oh and how do you know this for an objective truth ? Let me guess the Koran tells you this. The reality is that from earliest times , long before the birth of the Islamic heresy , early christians believed Jesus to be the Son of God. The apostles , early church fathers all bear testimony to this belief . People died for this belief (In certain Islamic countries today they still do)**

There is no proof that God sent his innocent son to get punished for the sins of others. You say that. There is no reason and no need and no proof of what you say.

There is no proof that God came to an illiterate feudal leader and made him his last prophet either it;s a question of faith my friend

I reproduce a part of the post of Iwesshome below:

Plus I do not consider Jesus as a God. I have always considered (even having received a Christian religious education) that Jesus was only a man and never divine. A prophet is what I consider of Jesus. A very spiritually influential man touched by God that preached a new form and mindset of religion that was different from the Jews.

That is the truth, 100%. Jesus was a man and a son of man and man of God only. Man is enough for all of us. And the prophets are all men. That is the highest that man can be. But Catholics are not satisfied with prophethood. They do not believe it is very high degree of status for any man. But we Muslims believe that to be the highest that any man can be granted by God.

No, the beauty is that my GOD is a GOD of love who so loved the world that he sent us his only beloved son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

To make a God of any one beside the Only One God is considered a sin of the highest order. I feel that would be the teaching of the Torah too. So we Muslims are not alone in our belief. I know some one (Catholic) will come up to tell me that they also believe in One God only. But that is a very complicated theory, theology. You have a Father God and a son God and a holy spirit God and still all three are One God. You may try to convince us that you believe in One God only but it will be upto us to agree to you or not.

While you do not believe in the very natural normal beliefs of the Muslims and you downplay our prophet Muhammad at all levels, yet you would like that we believe your complicated formulas of three=one. I have written all of the above for Pater Familias.

There is nothing normal nor natural about your beliefs since the GOD you serve and the one I serve is not the same GOD and despite what a more liberal minded ecumenical person may say that is a fact. Of course you must deny the divinity of christ for if he is truly divine then the revelation ended with him and there is no need for Muhammed and his inane ramblings

I fully agree with the Catholic Iwesshome. May Allah bless him and guide him/her all the more in the way to truth and may Allah (God) bring him/her close to Himself. Amen.

Iwesshome is not catholic even by the most charitable definition and I will pray for his and your conversion to the truth

Ad Jesu Per Mariam

 

[Iwesshome]

Iwesshome is not catholic even by the most charitable definition and I will pray for his and your conversion to the truth

I never said I was and not sure why everyone keeps thinking this. Plus why would I convert to a religion that doesn’t want me? If I was to base the Catholic religion on solely just on these forums I would never be welcomed. I feel that Catholics have set the bar of acceptance so high that all I can do is look up and see a neon sign read…

"Your not welcomed"

Why? Because I have what you call “liberal” views. I am a conservative liberal and not planning on changing anytime soon and yes a liberal can be conservative. It doesn’t matter that I read the Bible, pray the Rosary, believe in Saints, but because I question some church practices and question the Trinity I feel that I am looked down upon and prayed for because I don’t fit the criteria of acceptance.

 

[dzheremi]

Where does the Church have anything to do with your personal political views? Liberal, conservative, whatever…none of this is any news to God. If you do not think there can be liberal-minded Catholics, maybe you should spend some time in Latin America if possible. I was introduced to Catholicism while there, by a priest of certainly left of center views (it’s hard to not advocate for the poor, I suppose, when you come from them and serve among the worst of them).

How is being prayed for being “looked down upon”? It is a blessing, my friend.

Rejecting the Trinity does put you outside of the fold, though, there’s no doubt about that. I wouldn’t think having questions about it would, but what do I know. It makes a lot of sense to me to wonder about all of the mysteries of the faith, and that is what a lot of people seem to not be able to handle…maybe it is easier to the say “the Church would never accept me because of all of my questions” than to actually ask those questions to those that you are sure will reject you. I have, and I am still here and in many ways growing only deeper in my appreciation of all of these mysteries. It is, I admit, a very scary proposition from the outset if your roots are in a rationalist’s model of life, but it is right to follow wherever the Spirit leads you. To hell with all that would separate us from God!

I said when I first joined RCIA, I would not join the Church out of a lack of Papal love or external (superfluous) rules in my life. They did not throw me out, and still haven’t 3 years on…

Sorry for the rant, but I have yet to observe the Church that so many are convinced they must stay away from. Maybe I have been unusually lucky…

 

[Iwesshome]

Where does the Church have anything to do with your personal political views? Liberal, conservative, whatever…none of this is any news to God.

That’s my point. I feel it shouldn’t but if you go and read through other sections of these forums, read internet articles, etc it feels like it is drilled to that of a marching band. “To be Catholic you must believe this… you must vote this way… etc.” I see so much dislike for liberal mindset.

How is being prayed for being “looked down upon”? It is a blessing, my friend.

I have always felt it was more out of pity than being blessed. This usually came from debating issues with people I knew who were more religious than me. If we didn’t agree I was always told “fear not I will pray for you to see the light.” Since then I have never felt comfortable with the term.

Rejecting the Trinity does put you outside of the fold, though, there’s no doubt about that.

I don’t reject it I just question it. I always have, not that Jesus wasn’t the son of God but that Jesus is God. But that’s me and I am not downplaying what you would perceive as truth but what might take me longer to accept.

It is, I admit, a very scary proposition from the outset if your roots are in a rationalist’s model of life, but it is right to follow wherever the Spirit leads you. To hell with all that would separate us from God!

Yep, it’s not easy. I am sure that things might be different if I spoke to a Priest which I will admit is one thing I haven’t done yet.

 

[dzheremi]

“The liberal mindset”…hmmm…I have a wide range of opinions on many political topics, but I never thought of bringing any of them with me to Mass. When I am in the house of the Lord, I find it best to focus only on Him. It is good to remember that just as “Liberation theology” has been criticized and condemned by the Church in the past for its promises of earthly justice from a Marxist avatar of Jesus, likewise those who would parade Him around as a sort of proto-Ronald Reagan in sandals are committing the same error coming from the “opposite” side. Was Jesus a socialist when He preached the feeding and clothing of the poor, or was He supporting some conservative idea of the unassailable power of government when He told us to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s? Or could it be perhaps that Jesus, being the Son of God, is beyond what are largely modern and Euro/Americo-centric political ideas? I know what I think, but again, I leave that out of my Church activities. Religious faith most definitely shapes and informs politics for me…not the other way around! Again, this is just one Joe Catholics’ opinion…

It is an excellent step that you even recognize that you can still talk to a priest. Believe me, I have a million and one questions on just about everything (as I am still a relatively recent convert), and I hope I never stop “feeling my way around” the faith, so to speak. Questions on the Trinity, questions on devotions, questions on this or that part of a given piece of Church history…I doubt there is anything that my priest would be surprised to hear come out of my mouth (no matter how silly some of it probably sounds to someone who has long ago dealt with such questions on the road to becoming a priest). Without reducing faith to a purely intellectual exercise at any point, I have never felt that there is any question I couldn’t ask.

I see now what you mean about being prayed for. I have also been in some conversations with various people who (in my view) seemed to mistake prayer for pity. That prayer always comes from a position of humility (because who are we to harbor delusions of grandeur in the presence of God?) seems to be lost on some. Now, whenever I sense that someone is using their prayer as a way to emphasize my wretchedness, I always remind myself that, frankly, I could use reminding of that (and hence their prayer for me), and respond that I will likewise pray for them, as really we should both pray for each other. It is good to know that the other means it in whatever way they do. I don’t need to prove the purity of my intentions to anyone, as God alone knows truly what’s in my heart. So I mean it when I tell people that I will pray for them, and I assume that they mean it too when they say that to me. If they are being disingenous somehow, that is between them and God.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Where does the Church have anything to do with your personal political views? Liberal, conservative, whatever…none of this is any news to God. If you do not think there can be liberal-minded Catholics, maybe you should spend some time in Latin America if possible. I was introduced to Catholicism while there, by a priest of certainly left of center views (it’s hard to not advocate for the poor, I suppose, when you come from them and serve among the worst of them).

Being conservative does not mean you do not advocate for the poor. It’s quite the opposite actually. Being conservative means you do not want a Government trying to look after the poor, they waste too much money. If you took all the billions of dollars wasted on social programs in the US and donated it to charities and churchs, the poor would be much better off. That is the conservative view.

The liberals view is social program after social program. Let the federal government take care of the problem, and I’ll volunteer at a soup kitchen on occasion. Social programs are a waste of money and resources on the federal level with a society of 300 million people. State level they are a little better, but they do not get any better than a town offering help to those they know who need it the most.

Sorry, I know it’s off topic but I had to correct that.

 

[dzheremi]

Okay. I see I should have made myself a bit more explicit, as nothing that you posted in response to the quoted post has anything to do with the sort of leftist political philosophies I had in mind when I posted that. I ought not to have assumed that everyone would understand that I am not talking about a USA-centered political perspective just because I mentioned Latin America.

Specifically, I was told by the priest who ran the local orphanage I was volunteering/staying at in rural Mexico some 15 years ago about the daily struggle of the people who lived in/on the local dump. They were organized into a little shanty town sort of configuration, which would steal electricity from the city grid by means of cables attached directly to the nearest wires. Every evening or thereabouts, the local police would come by, spot the rig, and take down the cables, and tell the shanty people to knock it off. Sometimes apparently the police would come by the orphanage to ask the workers there if they had seen any bad or illegal behavior from the shanty people (since the orphanage used the local dump just like anywhere else), and the priest or others would always answer no, not wanting to incriminate any of the town’s most marginal residents. Instead, the priest said that they would somtimes petition for a lawyer on behalf of some of the residents of the shanty town who had been forced there after having lost the rights to their land (this involved some explanation of Mexican land use laws that I can’t possible remember now, and probably isn’t the same today as it was then anyway).

That’s what I meant by helping the poor. Little, local actions that may not have been “right” (such as not telling the police if they saw a shanty occupant stealing electricity) by strict conservative morality that the priest otherwise definitely held, but which helped the least of his brothers to survive under extremely harsh conditions. Variations on that theme are what I have heard over and over again from many people throughout Latin America and perhaps help to explain the continuing appeal of “liberation theology” and other forms of Christian radical leftism in Latin America and among people from there.