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Booklover
Guest
Muslims are always claiming they’re “victims” while theyre the biggest victimizers of all!
Vickie
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CKP0208
Guest
to: Booklover
What really tears at me is their treatment to women and children. And It all stems from culture and religion.
What really tears at me is their treatment to women and children. And It all stems from culture and religion.
S
sarahpackars
Guest
as a woman and a child at the same time i think it’s incredibly unfare to do things like they’ve done to people like me. equal rights may be revolutionary to them, but it’s the right thing.
N
notsmart
Guest
I would never laugh at someone else’s beliefs. I am not a believer, but I never laughed at christians, jews, muslims, or anyone for being a believer in something.
I have laughed, at that cult group that runs around shoving their stuff in peoples doors, but thats the only thing I can think of. I think cult groups dont qualify as representing a religion, so I may be off the hook there. However, I dont think I would even do that now.
I have laughed, at that cult group that runs around shoving their stuff in peoples doors, but thats the only thing I can think of. I think cult groups dont qualify as representing a religion, so I may be off the hook there. However, I dont think I would even do that now.
J
Jonathan_Cid
Guest
Well, that was entertaining.
P
planten
Guest
The picture is loading and I will soon listen to that biased lecture from some europian person. But it is good that you have enjoyed it. It must have been entertaining to you only.
Next, pray for the unity amongst Catholics. But what is the meaning of Pray for our father?? Who is your father? I see some unmarried fathers walking about here. Who is your father? Is he the Jesus or the father of Jesus? It appears that the fathe rof Jesus is also your father. Please come to the real things. Then you will have no complaints.
If Muslims have been abused and punished, they turned to violent acts. Who is responsible? Now leave it at the so called muslims and do not blame it on Islam. If you do then that willbe a high handedness. Then all the bad deeds that are going on on the streets of Paris and Hamburg will be blamed on the christians.
I hope it will be quite fair to blame the church for all those bad things openly being done in the western countries and for all the booze and jazz and gambling going on in monte carlo and west coast of America (San Diego?). Try to be fair.
Now I hope the video is fully loaded ready to be seen and I will do that.
Next, pray for the unity amongst Catholics. But what is the meaning of Pray for our father?? Who is your father? I see some unmarried fathers walking about here. Who is your father? Is he the Jesus or the father of Jesus? It appears that the fathe rof Jesus is also your father. Please come to the real things. Then you will have no complaints.
If Muslims have been abused and punished, they turned to violent acts. Who is responsible? Now leave it at the so called muslims and do not blame it on Islam. If you do then that willbe a high handedness. Then all the bad deeds that are going on on the streets of Paris and Hamburg will be blamed on the christians.
I hope it will be quite fair to blame the church for all those bad things openly being done in the western countries and for all the booze and jazz and gambling going on in monte carlo and west coast of America (San Diego?). Try to be fair.
Now I hope the video is fully loaded ready to be seen and I will do that.
C
CKP0208
Guest
To: planten
The idea that leaving your religion, apostasy, should be punished, has largely died out in last 100 years…
But Ayaan Hirsi Ali (an accomplished writer), who’s been in Australia over the last few days, is in continuous fear for her life because she is an apostate from Islam.
In 2004, in the Netherlands, her friend, the filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, was stabbed to death for an anti-Islam film for which she wrote the script. A death threat against her was pinned to the corpse with a knife.
In her subsequent book, Infidel, she stepped up her attack on global Islam. And in Australia she’s been talking about the ideas of the Enlightenment.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali says the creed of Islam itself, rather than the way it’s practised, is the problem, because the ideas of Mohammed are incompatible with the ideas of liberal democracy.
(To Ayaan Hirsi Ali) Is Islam the problem or is fundamentalist Islam the problem?
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Islam, as a creed, is the problem, depending on how you define the problem and I define it as the ideas of Mohammed are incompatible with the ideas that liberal secular democracies are based on.
And I also want to emphasise that it’s not Muslims as in individuals, because they’re varied, they’re very diverse. Some Muslims are a problem, some Muslims are not, some Muslims are apathetic, but Islam as a system of ideas is incompatible with liberal democracy as a system of ideas.
We see Indonesians who are evolving in their understanding and practice of democracy, but we also see Indonesians who are affected by the Middle East, and especially by the Islamic Radical/devout Movement and who are choosing to introduce Sharia, or parts of Sharia, into Indonesia, and I think it’s that trend that Australia and U.S. should not ignore. And it’s that trend that Indonesia itself should not ignore.
Islam as creed as incapable of change in the sense that … for instance there’s a read-only lock on the Koran. Anyone who proposes to change anything in the Koran is considered an apostate, and is immediately killed or threatened with death.
Muslims hold that the Prophet Mohammed is infallible. In fact, it’s a claim he did not make, but that is accorded to him. So that Muslims must in the 21st century, emulate the example of the Prophet Mohammed. And I think Islam will change, will be reformed, if a fair amount of Muslims abandon those dogmas.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Well, that depends on the people. If you have, as we have right now, people who want to practice Islam in its most pure form, and impose it on not just Muslims, but everyone else, then you’re going to see a resistance both from within Islam and outside of Islam.
And that resistance, if that doesn’t lead to a dialogue, a peaceful dialogue with a peaceful outcome, will lead to bloodshed. And if you look, if you listen to the rhetoric of al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, these are people who say we can’t compromise unless everyone becomes a Muslim. Now, everyone is not going to become a Muslim, and so then you set the stage for violence, and that violence is then caused by the zealots, by the puritans.
If freedom of expression is limited as it is in Muslim countries, and as large numbers of minorities in Western societies are demanding, then that means the free exchange of ideas. And the stages for that diminish and people get frustrated and that could lead to violence.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Everyone followed the cartoon crisis, or the crisis about the cartoon drawings of Mohammed in Denmark. That led to an explosion of violence because large groups of Muslims still will not accept criticism of their religion.
Over and over again, when in the name of Islam, human blood is shed, Muslims are very quiet. When drawings are made or some perceived slight or offences given by writing a book, or making a drawing, or in some way criticising the dogmas of Islam, people take to the streets. We have all these leaders of the organisation of Islam, the countries who oppressed on people, coming to demand the people apologise.
And I think it’s this discrepancy that more and more people see as violence and intolerance and the lack of freedom inherent in the creed of Islam.
Freedom and a vision that it is so much more important, so much better to live in freedom than to be overtaken by a wave of fanatics who in the name of Islam wants to impose their world view on us.
And I think the best thing to do is to resist and to take away from them, the monopoly that they now have on the hearts and minds of Muslims.
The idea that leaving your religion, apostasy, should be punished, has largely died out in last 100 years…
But Ayaan Hirsi Ali (an accomplished writer), who’s been in Australia over the last few days, is in continuous fear for her life because she is an apostate from Islam.
In 2004, in the Netherlands, her friend, the filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, was stabbed to death for an anti-Islam film for which she wrote the script. A death threat against her was pinned to the corpse with a knife.
In her subsequent book, Infidel, she stepped up her attack on global Islam. And in Australia she’s been talking about the ideas of the Enlightenment.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali says the creed of Islam itself, rather than the way it’s practised, is the problem, because the ideas of Mohammed are incompatible with the ideas of liberal democracy.
(To Ayaan Hirsi Ali) Is Islam the problem or is fundamentalist Islam the problem?
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Islam, as a creed, is the problem, depending on how you define the problem and I define it as the ideas of Mohammed are incompatible with the ideas that liberal secular democracies are based on.
And I also want to emphasise that it’s not Muslims as in individuals, because they’re varied, they’re very diverse. Some Muslims are a problem, some Muslims are not, some Muslims are apathetic, but Islam as a system of ideas is incompatible with liberal democracy as a system of ideas.
We see Indonesians who are evolving in their understanding and practice of democracy, but we also see Indonesians who are affected by the Middle East, and especially by the Islamic Radical/devout Movement and who are choosing to introduce Sharia, or parts of Sharia, into Indonesia, and I think it’s that trend that Australia and U.S. should not ignore. And it’s that trend that Indonesia itself should not ignore.
Islam as creed as incapable of change in the sense that … for instance there’s a read-only lock on the Koran. Anyone who proposes to change anything in the Koran is considered an apostate, and is immediately killed or threatened with death.
Muslims hold that the Prophet Mohammed is infallible. In fact, it’s a claim he did not make, but that is accorded to him. So that Muslims must in the 21st century, emulate the example of the Prophet Mohammed. And I think Islam will change, will be reformed, if a fair amount of Muslims abandon those dogmas.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Well, that depends on the people. If you have, as we have right now, people who want to practice Islam in its most pure form, and impose it on not just Muslims, but everyone else, then you’re going to see a resistance both from within Islam and outside of Islam.
And that resistance, if that doesn’t lead to a dialogue, a peaceful dialogue with a peaceful outcome, will lead to bloodshed. And if you look, if you listen to the rhetoric of al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, these are people who say we can’t compromise unless everyone becomes a Muslim. Now, everyone is not going to become a Muslim, and so then you set the stage for violence, and that violence is then caused by the zealots, by the puritans.
If freedom of expression is limited as it is in Muslim countries, and as large numbers of minorities in Western societies are demanding, then that means the free exchange of ideas. And the stages for that diminish and people get frustrated and that could lead to violence.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI: Everyone followed the cartoon crisis, or the crisis about the cartoon drawings of Mohammed in Denmark. That led to an explosion of violence because large groups of Muslims still will not accept criticism of their religion.
Over and over again, when in the name of Islam, human blood is shed, Muslims are very quiet. When drawings are made or some perceived slight or offences given by writing a book, or making a drawing, or in some way criticising the dogmas of Islam, people take to the streets. We have all these leaders of the organisation of Islam, the countries who oppressed on people, coming to demand the people apologise.
And I think it’s this discrepancy that more and more people see as violence and intolerance and the lack of freedom inherent in the creed of Islam.
Freedom and a vision that it is so much more important, so much better to live in freedom than to be overtaken by a wave of fanatics who in the name of Islam wants to impose their world view on us.
And I think the best thing to do is to resist and to take away from them, the monopoly that they now have on the hearts and minds of Muslims.
C
CKP0208
Guest
To
latenLook at Isaiah 9:6 and there are Christ’s Names. One is the Everlasting Father. Why? Because you as a believer is his seed and once the seed has become fruitful, then the Harvest. But also a child born unto and from him through the power of the Holy Spirit and then Just like Jacob took from Joseph Ephraim and Manesseh to himself so shall the Father of Jesus take us. Our Mother or Christ’s bride is the New Jerusalem, not yet descended to earth until the appointed time.
num 24:7 He shall pour water from his buckets,
And his seed shall be in many waters.
Code:
“His king shall be higher than Agag,
And his kingdom shall be exalted.He has strength like a wild ox;
He shall consume the nations, his enemies;
He shall break their bones
And pierce them with his arrows.
9 ‘He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
And as a lion, who shall rouse him?’[a]
Code:
“ Blessed is he who blesses you,
And cursed is he who curses you.”His seed shall endure forever,And his throne as the sun before Me;
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His **seed **remains in him (Christ); and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Christ is the sower and we are his to be born again and it is through him that we become The Almighty’s and its all done because, for and through his Son Jesus Christ…
R
RobHom
Guest
I note that you have already determined the video clip is “biased” before you have even seen it…that is really being “fair”!
What would be really good is if you actually had some clue as to what you are talking about…right?
Lets see, a bunch of muslim street punks don’t get what they want…and they riot in the street, burning cars and all the rest. Sure that’s ok or you…but where I come from…its not. You would go to prison for a long time. But we recognize that “violence and coercion” are your two primary tools. I wonder what you will do when you run into people that refuse to yield to your kind and fight back…and stomp on you. Will you play the victim?
I see it is your intention and aim to blame everyone else on the planet for the faults of your people and your so-called religion of “peace”.
How would it possibly be fair to blame any of those problems on any church? Wow, golly jeepers…“jazz” is some church’s fault? LOL…hahahahaha!! Good one. Oh, and yeah…uh-huh, sure…gambling and booze is all the fault of some church… LOL hahahahahahaha… You should do stand up comedy!!
I think it rather wrongful that your wealthy people who claim to be such good muslims come to this country and others…and forget their muslim manners and drink booze, gamble, and all the rest.
I think you are much like the pot calling the kettle black…but you should know…you can’t do that. Clean up your own back yard before you worry about all the rest of us.
By the way…I thought the video was good.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Look at Isaiah 9:6 and there are Christ’s Names. One is the Everlasting Father. Why?
In the Greek LXX, this reads "Father of the Age to Come."
In the Greek LXX, this reads "Father of the Age to Come."
C
Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
It’s very telling of you to call it biased when you haven’t listened to it yet.
D
dzheremi
Guest
I also find it funny that Planten snidely throws in “some European person”, as though no European should be allowed to criticize Islam even when they’re talking about it as they see it practiced by Muslims within the UK, where they live. It seems to me that Islamists have the ultimate goal of making everyone guests in their own country, as they have done in every country outside of Arabia where Islam has spread.
Also, in the “Missionaries to Muslims” thread, Planten made some interesting comments regarding the indigenous Christian minorities of the Muslim lands, to the effect that they may bring upon themsleves their own low status by their continued rejection of Islam as “true” or “peaceful” religion. I don’t buy that for a second, but since that is Planten’s mindset I can only look at this video and say: It doesn’t feel too good when you are singled out for rejecting the dominant ethos of the country in which you reside, does it? Can I then advise all the Muslims of Europe to “Please not complain”? You don’t get to come into Christian lands, seeking asylum, and then turn around and dictate to your adopted governments how they are to behave towards you. That is bad house manners and bad political tactics. Either play nicely or take your ball and go home, Muslims.
Also, in the “Missionaries to Muslims” thread, Planten made some interesting comments regarding the indigenous Christian minorities of the Muslim lands, to the effect that they may bring upon themsleves their own low status by their continued rejection of Islam as “true” or “peaceful” religion. I don’t buy that for a second, but since that is Planten’s mindset I can only look at this video and say: It doesn’t feel too good when you are singled out for rejecting the dominant ethos of the country in which you reside, does it? Can I then advise all the Muslims of Europe to “Please not complain”? You don’t get to come into Christian lands, seeking asylum, and then turn around and dictate to your adopted governments how they are to behave towards you. That is bad house manners and bad political tactics. Either play nicely or take your ball and go home, Muslims.
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planten
Guest
** I am sorry. I have to disagree with Hisri. She knows nothing about Islam. She is troubled by the ignorant Muslims and there are many in the world. But that is not the fault of Islam. She is wrong in saying what she says. She had no business attacking Islam. She has become a Kafir.
Even if no one is to be killed for apostacy, Hisri must be killed because she was on war path. She had no right to do waht she was doing. Changing religion is no problem. But the mainline muslim majority do still believe that the apostate is to be killed. That is all wrong. Majority muslims are misled under the sway of the bigots.**
That is all wrong. Muhammad taught about democarcy when no one knew about it. If the world had known democracy, it was the uncontrolled liberty which was blamed by Socrates too in his book “The Republic”. Muhammad was against kingdoms. He taught the lesson of controlled democracy with ethics. He gave the excellent law. What els edi the world need? Hirsi is ignorant about Islam.
**That is wrong again. There is no country in the world having the true peaceful law of Islam. The western world may be in better postion to implement the Islamic law. They are capable people. Muslims will never be able to do it. Already, the western countries have good liberal policies. They are more educated, better placed to do something good. Muslims are lacking in very field.
So please do not judge Islam by the doings (deeds) of the present day Muslims.**
.
There is no need to frighten any one by the law of Sharia. There is nothing better than that law. But if you want booze and jazz and gambling and free sex then please do not permit the Sharia law. That will hurt you too much. So think about it. What you want for yourself and your children. Also consider a littel bit about spiritualism. Don’t go totally for materialism. Islam is the answer for you.
Suppose you are a practicing christian, would you like the word of God or Jesus be changed as per your wishes. Would you allow it happily? I hope not. It appears to me that Hirsi is an atheist. Otherwise would not say such things about Quran.
** Could be right !**
** I have no comments because I do not know al-qaedah. And bin laden is not Islam. It was un-necessary to bring it into this topic.**
Quite right. But there cannot be unbridled liberty. Even UK will not allow it. The prophet Muhammad was fighting for the liberty of speech. But he was denied that liberty in Makkah. That was the reason of persecution and many wars …
I will reply to the last paras later…
P
planten
Guest
**Nobody would like such things. Even the christians would not like such dirty work. It is shameful to abuse the very beloved persons of any faith. Does Hirsi have any sense? **
** Hirsi is happy about cartoons affair because it was her job too. But she fled the scene. Now speaking from some hide out. But still not sure that what she was doing was wrong. Why don’t she make a few cartoons or films about Jesus and Mary too? People like Hirsi are the enemies of mankind. **
** Hirsi thinks. Is it possible? Bad is what she thinks. Nothing good and the peaceful world does not need her thoughts. She can keep her thoughts to herself. People like her disturb the peace. They stirr up trouble. They are the enemies of peace.
It is more hurtful and damaging to abuse some one than to kill some one. It is more painful. The Quran says “Compulsion (Fitnah) is worse than killing”.**
**Still better is to make people like you (Hirsi) to behave properly. You have given opinion against all muslims. They are already being controlled by the bigots. If there is any moderate muslim then you do not listen to him. So you have no right to give any opinion about Muslims.
There are many learned fair minded christians and Jews in the world. They could be more helpful to bring about the peace in the world.**
P
planten
Guest
The video was six minutes duration. I heard a short part of it from the very beginning and I found out the bad smelling material. Later I heard it all.It was all full of lies and biased against Islam. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and that pudding was very poisonious. The typical catholic pudding.
P
planten
Guest
**It is bad but not so much. There is ignorance. But a lot of beating goe son in the western world too. Husbands beat the wife when they come home drunk.to: Booklover
What really tears at me is their treatment to women and children. And It all stems from culture and religion.
Moreover, they are unfaithful to their wives, using (practicing) extra marital sex. Is that not hurtful. Perhaps a slap on the face of the wife is not so hurtful (painful) as being unfaithful to her.**
A
Angelos
Guest
Confusing apples with pears again! It is high time you realised that not everyone known as a Christian is an angel or a saint. There are many Christians who bear the name of Christ in their religion, but live as atheists and sinners. God is to judge them.
The problem is that you compare what some Christians do DESPITE Jesus’ teachings to what Muslims do BECAUSE of a supposed divine commandment in their scripture. This is why your comparison is faulty and unfair.
Salaam to you.
P
planten
Guest
**Okay, I should not compare like that. But when you blame everything bad the Muslims are doing, you blame it on Islam, then why should not I also blame everything bad on the christianity?Confusing apples with pears again! It is high time you realised that not everyone known as a Christian is an angel or a saint. There are many Christians who bear the name of Christ in their religion, but live as atheists and sinners. God is to judge them.
The problem is that you compare what some Christians do DESPITE Jesus’ teachings to what Muslims do BECAUSE of a supposed divine commandment in their scripture. This is why your comparison is faulty and unfair.
Salaam to you.
But if you think that I am at fault and you will continue your practice then I better withdraw from this race. Thanks. I got your message. **
C
CKP0208
Guest
Yes, and that age is now, and to the end of the earth… ! Praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ.
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