Islam in theory and practice

[Ontheway]

I have a very devout Muslim friend who insists that the current Islamic practices; head scarves, violence; intolerance toward other religions, church burnings, interfaith killings; maiming and killing of girls who want to attend school, and so many other practices are a direct violation of the Koran and the Mohamedan idea.

What I would like to know is how many Muslims here agree with this idea; or how they view this situation.

 

[jakasaki]

I have a very devout Muslim friend who insists that the current Islamic practices; head scarves, violence; intolerance toward other religions, church burnings, interfaith killings; maiming and killing of girls who want to attend school, and so many other practices are a direct violation of the Koran and the Mohamedan idea.

What I would like to know is how many Muslims here agree with this idea; or how they view this situation.

Your friend sounds like a “Quranist”

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Considering the fact that their beloved “prophet” was all but ignorant of Natural law; murdered, pillaged and raped his way through his adult life, and was, by all accounts, a terrible human being; no, I don’t buy it. Islam is a violent religion built on a foundation of bones and blood; it is doomed to collapse in under the weight of it’s own immorality and disrespect for God’s Law.

 

[GreatergoodGod]

Considering the fact that their beloved “prophet” was all but ignorant of Natural law; murdered, pillaged and raped his way through his adult life, and was, by all accounts, a terrible human being; no, I don’t buy it. Islam is a violent religion built on a foundation of bones and blood; it is doomed to collapse in under the weight of it’s own immorality and disrespect for God’s Law.

This is the way I see it as well.

 

[meltzerboy]

I have a very devout Muslim friend who insists that the current Islamic practices; head scarves, violence; intolerance toward other religions, church burnings, interfaith killings; maiming and killing of girls who want to attend school, and so many other practices are a direct violation of the Koran and the Mohamedan idea.

What I would like to know is how many Muslims here agree with this idea; or how they view this situation.

Even as a non-Muslim, I would bet these behaviors are contrary to Islam. However, I’m not sure about wearing head scarves, which may be more of a custom than a religious doctrine.

 

[MartinJordan]

However, I’m not sure about wearing head scarves, which may be more of a custom than a religious doctrine.

This is a possibility. However what is official reason I would like to know. Normally I think it is worn upon reaching puberty but I’ve seen female toddlers wear it as well.

MJ

 

[jakasaki]

This is a possibility. However what is official reason I would like to know. Normally I think it is worn upon reaching puberty but I’ve seen female toddlers wear it as well.

MJ

But does the Quran, in fact, require women to cover themselves–with a veil, a chador or any other form of head covering?

Answer: The quick answer is no: the Quran has no requirement that women cover their faces with a veil, or cover their bodies with the full-body burqua or chador, as in Iran and Afghanistan.

But the Quran does address the matter of veiling in such a way that it has been interpreted historically, if not necessarily correctly, by Muslim clerics as applying to women.

Historical Perspective

The veiling of women was not an Islamic innovation but a Persian and Byzantine-Christian custom that Islam adopted. For most of Islam’s history, the veil in its various forms was seen as a sign of distinction and protection for upper-class women.

Since the 19th century, the veil has come to represent a more assertive, self-consciously Islamic expression, sometimes in reaction to Western currents–colonialism, modernism, feminism.

The Veil in the Quran

Initially in Prophet Muhammad’s life, the veil was not an issue. His wives didn’t wear it, nor did he require that other women wear it. As he became more important in his community, and as his wives gained stature, Muhammad began adapting Persian and Byzantine customs. The veil was among those.

Read the rest of the article here:

middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/f/me080209.htm

 

[arabic_catholic]

classical islam allows for violent and hate … there are major muslim theologians like ahmad ibn hanbil and ibn taimyah who advocate hate (they are equal of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas in the Catholic tradition) … but to be fair not everything you just said is allowed in islam … for example killing girls who go to school is just a cultural thing, although extremist might try to justified on religious ground. in my country woman are not allowed to drive because culture and religion are mixed together; however in most countries such an interpretation does not exist… as for bombing churches we know that the Saudi mufti last year asked muslms to destroy every church in arabia . Ibn taimyah and classical islamic theology , does not allow for building new churches , or repairing old ones … but again this could be argued as interpretation of islam .

wearing a scarf (or hijab) is a universal dogma , … people in the west who question it are reformed muslims…

islamqa.info/en/ref/13998

read this fatwa if you are in doubt .

 

[Loving_disciple]

You will know them by their fruits

 

[Ontheway]

classical islam allows for violent and hate … there are major muslim theologians like ahmad ibn hanbil and ibn taimyah who advocate hate (they are equal of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas in the Catholic tradition) … but to be fair not everything you just said is allowed in islam … for example killing girls who go to school is just a cultural thing, although extremist might try to justified on religious ground. in my country woman are not allowed to drive because culture and religion are mixed together; however in most countries such an interpretation does not exist… as for bombing churches we know that the Saudi mufti last year asked muslms to destroy every church in arabia . Ibn taimyah and classical islamic theology , does not allow for building new churches , or repairing old ones … but again this could be argued as interpretation of islam .

wearing a scarf (or hijab) is a universal dogma , … people in the west who question it are reformed muslims…

islamqa.info/en/ref/13998

read this fatwa if you are in doubt .

Thank you for this great response, although I had hoped for some of the Muslims here to actually participate in this conversation.

You refer to “classical Islamic theology” and not the Koran. I am aware of interpretations and scholarship although entirely ignorant of the various schools or trends.

If my friend tries to interpret the Koran without assistance from the classical interpreters, which is what seems to be happening here, where does this place him in the Islamic spectrum?

 

[dronald]

I have a hard time understanding how one can read the Hadith and not believe some of the things posted here.

Killing Jews is a must in order for the end times to be fulfilled.

Striking your wives is a must if they continue in disobedience.

And Muhammad said if anyone changes his Islamic Religion then kill him.

Also, stoning adulterers.

 

[Ontheway]

wearing a scarf (or hijab) is a universal dogma , … people in the west who question it are reformed muslims…

islamqa.info/en/ref/13998

read this fatwa if you are in doubt .

OK, but there is another opinion. My friend grew up in Egypt where women did not wear the hijab back in the 60’s and the 70’s. Only the old women did. Now it is universal. Women who grew up not wearing the hijab do so now and force their daughters to wear them. I can’t think of an explanation for this. Maybe someone with more experience can help?

 

[Ontheway]

I have a hard time understanding how one can read the Hadith and not believe some of the things posted here.

Killing Jews is a must in order for the end times to be fulfilled.

Striking your wives is a must if they continue in disobedience.

And Muhammad said if anyone changes his Islamic Religion then kill him.

Also, stoning adulterers.

Sorry about my ignorance, but is Hadith part of the Koran?

And I did see pictures of stoning in Sudan, just a couple of years ago.

 

[jakasaki]

Sorry about my ignorance, but is Hadith part of the Koran?

And I did see pictures of stoning in Sudan, just a couple of years ago.

No, hadith is not part of the Quran.

They are separate books. There are quite a few of them.

They are suppose to be the sayings of the “prophet”

If you ever get a change to read them, they’ll make your head spin.

 

[dronald]

Sorry about my ignorance, but is Hadith part of the Koran?

And I did see pictures of stoning in Sudan, just a couple of years ago.

Being a Muslim and not accepting the Hadith as true is heretical in Islam.

The Hadith are the sayings of Muhammad by his closest companions and are considered scripture, but not considered revelation from Allah.

And yes, as stated it will make your head spin.

 

[Ontheway]

No, hadith is not part of the Quran.

They are separate books. There are quite a few of them.

They are suppose to be the sayings of the “prophet”

If you ever get a change to read them, they’ll make your head spin.

Are the Hadith, then, the source of the violence, oppression, intolerance, etc. that is characteristic of some Islamic groups today? Or, do they simply confirm what is in the Koran?
What I am trying to get at is the question of whether one could read the Koran itself and come away with the conviction of it being a religion of peace, as some claim. Are all the nasty things in the Hadith’s? Or is it simply the same story?

 

[arabic_catholic]

Thank you for this great response, although I had hoped for some of the Muslims here to actually participate in this conversation.

You refer to “classical Islamic theology” and not the Koran. I am aware of interpretations and scholarship although entirely ignorant of the various schools or trends.

If my friend tries to interpret the Koran without assistance from the classical interpreters, which is what seems to be happening here, where does this place him in the Islamic spectrum?

Judging from my experience , there is no room for reinterpretation in the minds of the shaikhs (at least the majority of them) … that is why I quit islam and no longer believe in it. the community and the shaikhs are resisting any reinterpretation. Now they will tell you publicly : no , islam has room and all this nice phrases . but in reality a muslim can’t take the quran and interpret it individually since there is already a Tafsir (interpretation) literature . If that is the case , then why there is muslim immams ? years ago , a muslim group in America asked a woman to lead the friday prayer … that drove majority of muslims crazy since they are inventing (bid’a )in religion.

As for your question about egypt , you are totally right… Egyptian people were very secular. but that has nothing to do with classical Islam. in the 20th century , there was a crisis of faith in the Islamic world. And that’s where many marxist and leftist took power over there, because religion was so weak. egypt , Turkey , and Syria were very Sufi (mystics) , however the salalfi school (fundamentalist) reemerge in the late 70s and early 80s , and that’s why you see the hair covering thing grown since then . its not cultural , its only that people started to take their faith more seriously. I am not sure of I am right , but I believe all four schools of islam teach that hair covering is wajib for woman . the debate is , should she even cover her face ? in Saudi the immams says yes and they have their reasoning behind it .

islamqa.info/en/ref/21134 see this shaikh argument on niqab and hijab

 

[jakasaki]

Are the Hadith, then, the source of the violence, oppression, intolerance, etc. that is characteristic of some Islamic groups today? Or, do they simply confirm what is in the Koran?
What I am trying to get at is the question of whether one could read the Koran itself and come away with the conviction of it being a religion of peace, as some claim. Are all the nasty things in the Hadith’s? Or is it simply the same story?

Poster:

I’m sending you the Islamic hadith books.

hadithcollection.com/

Take your time and read them.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Are the Hadith, then, the source of the violence, oppression, intolerance, etc. that is characteristic of some Islamic groups today? Or, do they simply confirm what is in the Koran?
What I am trying to get at is the question of whether one could read the Koran itself and come away with the conviction of it being a religion of peace, as some claim. Are all the nasty things in the Hadith’s? Or is it simply the same story?

of course one can read the Koran and come to a peaceful interpretation of the religion , if he reinteprete the violence passages differently . However the Quran says listen to the prophet , and the prophet words (hadith) were recorded ; and there is many good ad bad stuff in them . A real muslim cannot reject a Sahih( authentic) hadith. In Islamic theology , the Hadith formed the majority of islamic law. now for muslim reformes , its easy task to dismiss the hadith since it was written 100s of years after Muhammad ! Yet if you reject hadith then that’s like a catholic saying I will stick with the gospels and reject everything else in the New Testement and the Catholic Tradition!

 

[dronald]

Of course, as violent and accepted in Islam the Hadith is let’s not forget about Surah 9:29 in the Quran. I have yet to find any justification for the eternal holy book of Islam stating that Jews and Christians should be suppressed.