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jen_fla
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it’s 35 degrees in here…am being roasted
ok, i really have to go do some work. if only someone would give me a scholarship to study Catholicism all day and night!
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ok, i really have to go do some work. if only someone would give me a scholarship to study Catholicism all day and night!
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R_not
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I have posted so many times that proof that I am getting tired of it. I already posted the proof.
In Jordan the government wanted to get rid of honor killings but the muslim males didn’t want to get rid of it.
Even the UN noticed the honor killings in ALL muslim countries.
groups.msn.com/THeTruthAboutIslam/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=&ID_Message=12901
here is a quote from the above website since so few appeasers of islam and muslims will read and keep in mind that Jordan is considered a ‘moderate’ and modern islamic state:
**While many authorities say that Islamic religious tradition does not sanction honor killing, it has long been accepted in many Muslim societies all the same. Perpetrators are typically punished lightly, if at all. In 2003, Jordan’s parliament overwhelmingly defeated a proposal to impose harsher penalties for honor killings; Islamists objected on the grounds that more severe punishment would violate religious traditions and damage Jordanian society. “There must be violence against women,” proclaimed the headline on a column in the Yemen Times earlier this year. The beating of wives and sisters, the columnist argued, is sometimes necessary “to preserve the morals and principles with which Islam has honored us.”
It is appalling that such lethally barbaric attitudes could persist anywhere at this late date — and all the more alarming, now that the shame of honor killing has made its way here.**
there is such a wealth of information on it that to tell me that I have not proved that not only does islam support it, but that muslims everywhere practice it is a shallow argument. Every muslim country that practices sharia law allows honor killings.
Jordan is islamic. this tells me that once again, I am discussing something with a muslim, or an appeaser, that doesn’t even know what they are defending.
I know dhimmi who have fled Jordan - a mild islamic state compared to other states. He was afraid to talk about dhimmitude because he thought it would get back to his family in Jordan and they would be persecuted. This shows the state of dhimmitude in even a so called moderate islamic country.
Oh, by the way - where did many of the Palestinians migrate to when Israel was given the land? Jordan took about 3/4 of the land alloted to the Israelis (notice that not one Pal, or muslim, bombs anyone in Jordan over that land that they took!). The Jordans even booted out many Palestinians because they were so disgusting.
middle east conflict: youtube.com/watch?v=vf8-NFeYPr0
David Horowitz, the middle east conflict: youtube.com/watch?v=dnIKRse86GU
If you want more proof that I have already posted about honor killings - go read my previous posts. It is getting tiring to post the same things to muslims who are unable to admit that islam allows such things.
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jen_fla
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darn it, i just can’t get off this board… real quick, iran is islamic state. says it’s the republic of islam. i am pretty sure the others are as well, but i’ll come back with a reference if someone hasn’t by the time i get back on here.
peace and love to the lovers of Truth!
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R_not
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Egypt is not only muslim, but the radical muslim brotherhood is centered in Egypt. I already posted about Jordan being muslim too. bin laden’s number two man is from Egypt - a doctor. (another example that jihadists are not illiterate nor poor)
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dzheremi
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And I find it ironic that you did not respond to anything in my post, which was about different TACTICS in bringing people to Christianity, and how your way might not be the best even if you are “right” about the violence in Islam.
I don’t need to read the rest of your post. I know the links from Faith Freedom very well. I am a registered member of its forum and visit that site frequently.
Like inJESUS said, I prefer to discuss ideologies rather than people. So, no, I am not “attacking” you, merely suggesting that there are other ways of approaching people that might be more effective if they relied more on love and less on exclamation points. It is honestly hard to see anything good in just yelling about things. It tends to drown out the content.
Love is still best, whether you are guided by it or not. I was brought into the Church by love, and it is by and with love that continue on in it. I truly hope the same is true for you, and for everyone.
With love,
Jeremy
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inJESUS
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Egypt and Jordan are not Islamic states.
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R_not
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Well, if you haven’t read my post stating that they are here is one with Jordan and Egypt being included:
cfr.org/publication/8034/
do some searches on these two countries in this article.
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inJESUS
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R_not
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Maybe you should read the title of this thread.
How dare you tell me what I am or am not guided by. I am not inJesus - nor am I you!
there is nothing ‘With love’ in your self-righteous platitudes that I should behave as someone else behaves. I will say this, don’t worry about me. How about that? And stop your preaching - I went to Church yesterday and got a bit of it.
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inJESUS
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it’s almost midnight here so forgive my laziness…if you could quote things i’d appreciate it…if you steel in Egypt, your hands are not cut for example…
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Silouan
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I read the links in this post and read the whole post and did not see one shread of evidence that Honor Killing is Islamic. The only thing you haveproved is that there are Muslims in muslim dominated lands engaging in honor killing. You have not proven that Honor Killing is part of Islam.
There is a difference between the two.
Thus it is wrong to say Islam allows such things, it is more correct and accurate to say there are Muslims who allow it. Islam does not allow it.
In Christ,
Silouan
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R_not
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I will state this again. Maybe it is because only one thing can be read at once.
ISLAM ALLOWS IT. Sharia law is based on the koran - and that is what muslims have told me time and again - and it is sharia law that allows it.
What islam allows is beating, stoning, and other things to women. I suppose if they just do that without saying that it is an ‘honor killing’ would make you happy. then maybe we should send a message to those muslim countries to stop saying honor killing and just go ahead and do to the women as the koran dictates.
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R_not
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sweet dreams.
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inJESUS
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R-Not, Killing adulterous is Islamic but honour killing is not because it does not meet the criteria…killing adulterous ppl have criterias including witnesses and a judge who rules it and these are not met in honour killing…
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Silouan
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islamicamagazine.com/Online-Analysis/Islam-and-Honor-Killings.html
**Islam and ‘Honor Killings’ **
by IMAM ZAID SHAKIR
For that reason, we ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul for other than murder or spreading corruption in the land, it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity… (Qur’an 5:35)
One of the gravest charges levied against Islam, in terms of its alleged antipathy towards women, is the claim that it encourages a phenomenon known as honor killings. This un-Islamic practice consists of the murder of female family members who are seen as dishonoring their families through real or perceived acts of indiscretion, such as premarital sexual relations or unapproved dating. This charge has been intensified recently due to the tragic murder of a Pakistani Canadian teenage girl, Aqsa Parvez.
The practice of honor killings has absolutely no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in the evolved systems of Islamic law. In the case of fornication or adultery, the only way a charge can be levied against an individual, male or female, is through confession, which is discouraged, or by four people actually witnessing the male organ penetrating the female. Even if four people witnessed a naked man engaged with a naked woman, but could not actually testify that they witnessed penetration, their testimony would be rejected.
In a somewhat related issue, it should be noted that in three of the four Sunni schools of law, as is the case with all of the major Shiite schools, pregnancy is not a proof of fornication, as the possibility of rape exists in such a case. Therefore, if a single woman were to become pregnant, according to the overwhelming majority of Islamic jurists, there is no basis for punishing her. In the few well-publicized instances where a pregnant woman has been threatened with death, the minority opinion of the Maliki School of law was unjustly evoked, as occurred in Nigeria, or criminal malfeasance occurred as is the case in Pakistan.
In the case of dating, there is no Islamically-mandated punishment for a male or a female seeing a member of the opposite sex against the wishes of their families. Such situations should be handled with counseling, compassion and a healthy dose of common sense. Muslim immigrants who have migrated to the West should realize that they have placed their children in an environment where there is a tremendous amount of un-Islamic peer pressure. This is especially true if they have placed their children, as was the case of the young lady who was recently murdered in Canada, in public schools. Children who succumb to that pressure should not be seen as “bad” kids, for by the standards of the society that has shaped them, no matter how strong their home environment is, they are normal. To kill a female guilty of an offense such as dating or dressing like her peers under such circumstances is nothing short of cold-blooded murder, and no Islamic authority can argue otherwise.
The overwhelming majority of Muslim societies are free from the practice of honor killing, although it does endure in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. According to statistics released by the United Nations in 2000 there are approximately 5,000 deaths annually from “honor” killings. Even if one killing occurred due to such barbarity, it would be one too many, as the Qur’an emphasizes.
However, to use the existence of such killings to smear Islam shows the desperation and misplaced priorities of many of those levying such attacks. Most of those deaths are the pathetic acts of sick individuals, who are far removed from the letter, as we have shown above, and the spirit of Islam. An example of such an individual is Muhammad Riaz, a British Muslim of South Asian descent who died as a result of a fire he set to burn to death his wife and four daughters, allegedly because his wife resisted his attempt to arrange marriages for his daughters. His wife and daughters did perish in that fire. To present Riaz, whose daughters had neither fornicated nor dated, as anything other than a sick individual is a sad attempt to defame Islam.
To attack Islam from this angle is a case of misplaced priorities because it can distract attention from far graver abuses of women that demand immediate redress. For example, the State Department estimates that approximately 800,000 women and girls are trafficked as sexual slaves annually. The overwhelming majority of these females are taken from and sent to nominally Christian countries.
Over the last five years well over one thousand women have been kidnapped and then gruesomely murdered in Guatemala. Their bodies usually turn up after a few days, mutilated and in some instances with messages such as “death to bitches” written on them. To date only three men have been incarcerated in connection with those attacks. Would it proper for us to infer from that situation the conclusion that the “Christians” of Guatemala, an overwhelmingly Christian nation, have no regard for the suffering of their women? Of course it would not.
At the end of the day, attacks such as the one that resulted in the death of Aqsa Parvez are acts of domestic violence resulting from rage that emanates from a total neglect of Islamic teachings. Ms. Parvez lost her life due to such violence and perhaps there are a few other instances where Muslims women in Canada or here in the United States, have been similarly victimized. However, these instances should be kept in perspective. In the United States there are approximately 1,200 women killed every year by their husbands or intimate partners. There are other “Christian” nations where murders of this type are even higher.
The United States, Guatemala, and other countries we could mention where similar abuses occur are Christian nations. However, it would be disingenuous to use such statistics as an indictment against Christianity. These issues are an affront to humanity and require our collective attention. Until we all view the problem this way, we are in jeopardizing the health and integrity of our society.
Saying this is not to minimize the gravity of so-called honor killings to the extent that they do occur in Muslim societies. As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.
Practical steps include the following:
- Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
- Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
- Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
- Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
- Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.
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dzheremi
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Do not yell at me, please. I feel I have been misunderstood in part and should explain what I meant, because reading over my reply I can see why you have reacted to a portion of it so negatively. This is my fault, and I apologize for not taking into account how my post could be read. I will try to do better next time.
Please do not assume that I am telling you what you are guided by. This is not the case, and I apologize if I did not phrase my reply to make it clear what I meant. I wrote “Love is still best, whether you are guided by it or not”, meaning: There are different approaches and motivations you (not YOU specifically, the general you) can have when speaking with unbelievers. I find that doing so with love and out of a spirit of love to be the best way to go. It is the way that worked to bring me to the Church after several years with no religion to speak of. The Presbyterians, the community that I have come out of, could not bring me back by appealing to various traditions I was raised with, or the idea that I will go to hell if I don’t come back, or anything else. It was only love, and this love I found that was for and of God in His holy Catholic church. That is all I meant in that portion of my reply.
I have read the title of the thread. I am aware of the evil and bad that is in Islam. I do not deny it or cover it up and it concerns me greatly. All the more reason to try to bring people out of it, if possible.
Again, my point is not “behave how Silouan behaves” or “behave how I behave” or anything like that. You can only be you. I will not take your advice to “stop preaching” (are you preaching to me when you reply to things that I have posted? I don’t think so), though. I am trying to have a discussion with you about different ways to proceed in dealing with the problems that Islam presents to Christians. If you do not wish to have this conversation, okay, I will stop replying to anything you post, but I don’t think we will be doing ourselves any favors by not talking just because we have different ways of dealing with the same issues. I like to talk with my Christian brothers and sisters (yes, including you, R_not), but if they do not like talking with me, I am more than willing to ignore any who feel that way. I enjoy the insights, thoughts, and questions of the majority of people I have interacted with here. I do not consider myself better than ANY of them. I learn so much from everyone. I am glad I found this place.
I am truly sorry if I have offended you, R_not. We may not see eye to eye on very many issues, but I hope you do not take it personally. I do believe you are genuine in your concern about Islam and I don’t doubt you are sincere in your faith. We just see things differently, that’s all.
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R_not
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:banghead:
One more time:
ISLAM ALLOWS IT. Sharia law is based on the koran - and that is what muslims have told me time and again - and it is sharia law that allows it.
What islam allows is beating, stoning, and other things to women. I suppose if they just do that without saying that it is an ‘honor killing’ would make you happy. then maybe we should send a message to those muslim countries to stop saying honor killing and just go ahead and do to the women as the koran dictates.
It really doesn’t matter what it is called - all the muslim male has to say is honor killing and it is ok in all countries with sharia law, even Egypt if you think that isn’t run by sharia law. (we see in the groups where muslims reside in our Western countries they practice sharia law - and with Egypt having an even larger muslim population to think that sharia law is not practiced is rather farfetched to me).
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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and the difference between adultry killing and honour killing is legalistic but the result is the same…so i agree with you that the “idea” is there but how it is applied in honour killing is not Islamic since it does not meet the criteria.
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R_not
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Thank you, dzheremi. I appreciate your post.
I will try to explain how I deal with islam and maybe you will figure me out.
First of all, I guess I am not an overly gushy person and do indeed react to love and kindness, but I just don’t express it as well as people like inJesus does.
After 9/11 I was greatly affected by the carnage. I was in the USMC (1978-1986) and lived through our own Marines and Sailors being killed by jihadists. My ex-husband went there afterwards and was in areas in the Middle East that he could not tell me about. And Israel is NOT the aggressor - the muslims in Lebanon and elsewhere are though. And he saw it first hand. He had to go out to measure the bombs being lobbed at Israel (he was in the artillery and could measure and figure out the hole the bomb left where it came from)
We Marines also went through terrorist training (well, some of us did - not all), and this is basically when I became aware of what was happening over there. yes, I heard about what Carter did and what he failed to do - that is why I voted for Reagon - but that is another story.
Anyway, during the 1990s all I did was start paying attention to how often our citizens were being attacked by muslims. Citizens that were NOT armed. And then some of those attacks on our own land - and even the OKC bombing has ties to the Iraqi/Hussein regime and the bombers were trained by the Philippino muslims - little known fact that Clinton/Reno tried covering up. Well, Clinton was gutting our military and our intelligence agencies and I paid attention to that and all the while he would put us into places like Bosnia/Kosovo and help muslims kill MORE Christians!!!
Then 9/11 happened. That was the last straw. I had lunch with a Jewess who has dual citizenship with Israel and the USA and asked her ‘why do they hate us’? Well, she didn’t want to go into it all but suggested for me to read ‘From Time Immemorial’. (not light reading!!) But from there I was hooked and I have no idea how many books later including the koran and many hadiths - (at least 50) this is where I am today.
I used to have no problem with muslims and wouldn’t have had a problem with them moving next door! now, I would go out and buy a potbellied pig if one moved in. yes, that might sound horrorific to you and others - but that is what I would do because I know too much now.
they are told to hate us and they are told to deceive us in that hatred. While their numbers are building up they are to do what it takes to deceive us.
Now, I know that not all muslims are religious, but the seeds of it is in their religion. and I don’t refer to islam as a religion except on this website. It is imperialistic, fascist and even worse than communism.
How can one trust a muslim when deception is sanctioned? When around this globe all the wars, except for about 1 or 2, are attributed to muslim aggression? While no one even bothers to learn about islam and what is causing this violence?! Well, I also read ‘the Art of War’ and that is some of my background.
When I talk about islam it is like I have to put my brain in a different ‘mode’. To me it is against logic, it is against reason, and it is against any sort of love that any other religion has espoused - except for muslim males.
I finally looked to a Pope as being honest about islam when our Pope finally said what all the Popes should have said about it. I was proud of him, an old man speaking up about islam as he did. But, it is too bad he and the previous Popes haven’t done more to stop the spread of secularism and also islam in Europe - their own backyards! And that is another story too.
So, this is where I come from when I talk about islam. Unfortunately, people like Silouan do not help matters by appeasing islam as others have done in countries such as Lebanon, etc. It has only helped muslims move along faster and we see what they have done to that country and because they have such a good foothold into that country they are now doing their evil to Israel from the Lebanese border. What muslims have done to the citizenry of Lebanon, as a tiny example, and the terror that they have done should be read by all! (‘Because They Hate’ by Brigette Gabriel - a Lebonese Christian who heads up the organization that I have joined - Act for America).
Anyway, this is a long post and I again say thank you and let us just let bygones be bygones. We shouldn’t argue amongst ourselves - it does no good.
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