Islam is simply not "discussable".

[Eden]

I remeber listening to an Indian Islamic scholar on you tube one time and one of the first things he did was recognize that with respects to Islam and Christianity their can only be four possbilities to truth.

1. The bible is true and the quran is false
2. the Quran is true and the bible is false
3. The Quran is true and so is the bible
4. Bothe the bible and Quran are false

until we as a whole can recognize these premises whther we like them or not we cant not further dialogue.

Where does it state in the Quran that the Bible is corrupted?

 

[Eden]

Greetings and peace be with you Auriel;

Thanks for your reply, there is one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen and the God I pray to created people who are Muslims, Christians, Hindu and atheist. Regardless of what any of us might believe the same God hears the prayers of Muslim, Christian, Hindu, and Jew.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith relations

Eric

I see that you are in the U.K. You would probably be interested in the documentary which aired on your Channel 4 in January about a mosque, which states on its website, that it seeks interfaith dialogue:

youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

 

[Eric_Hyom]

greetings and peace be with you Charlie Zeaiter;

Get over it, Eric; The inquisition is history

The inquisitions may well have been an out of date example and I apologise for that

.

Everybody has moved on since then… Everybody - except for a few trouble makers.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance

Eric

 

[Jayda]

Are you confusing “impolite” with “hurtful”…?

They are not equivalent. I can be AMAZINGLY impolite while not being hurtful in the least.

I can also do the obverse, but that’s just being nastily sarcastic,… and I reserve that for only my closest friends.

Hear hear…!

But what happens when someone takes ANYTHING you say as being “impolite” (or even hurtful) while demanding that you have a meaningful discussion with them?

That is the problem with moslems that I’ve found. They DEMAND to be “included” in the dialogue, while being inappropriately “sensitive” at the same time.

Thus, the premise of this thread.

Islam is simply not discussable, and will only be discussed between non-moslems, which doesn’t make for much insight into how Christians and moslems can “get along”.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

hola,

I am delighted to say that after consulting my priest I have found a better way to say what I mean. Politeness was not the right word for what I meant, I tried to explain to him what I was trying to say to you but couldn’t so he asked me questions, and asked me to give him some descriptions.

So I said that I did not think it was right, even when speaking truthfully, to be deliberately hurtful with our words, or to speak spitefully. I also suggested impoliteness, disrespect and meanness were things I did not feel were “right.” He suggested that the word I was really looking for was love, and I think he is right. We are supposed to love our enemies, love those who persecute us, love those who are lost and pray for their return. Moreover love really best describes the balance between respect, truth telling and politeness I was trying to describe…

So when we decided that I meant love instead of respect, then what I was trying to say became more clear. What I meant to say was that we should speak truthfully but also with love. My priest suggested that what I was saying was something that the Apostle Paul said, I agree:

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"

Also

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth "

So I think that even though I believe it is important to discuss the negative things about Islam with muslims, I think it is also important to do so with the right intention, love, rather than spite or anger. If we spend more time thinking about this before we speak I think some of these issues will melt away.

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

How nice. In the spirit of interfaith dialogue I will go to Saudi Arabia and offer a public Mass. Afterward I will hand out free literature that explains Christianity. I am sure I will be greeted with open arms and treated with great respect…as they chop my head off.

Blame that on gutless western leaders who prostitute themselves only because those folk have the ‘black gold’ !!! To think that in these modern times christians are still unable to operate legally in many islamic countries…yet these countries are busy purchasing land ect. in western countries like there was no tomorrow !!! To add insult to injury many muslims are desparate to gain entry into the EU and the USA , but back home in their countries the west is portrayed as ‘the great evil’ ???
They can however only be treated with love…Christ wills it !!!

 

[Hospitaller]

They can however only be treated with love…Christ wills it !!!

We’re commanded to love our enemies, certainly, but never were we commanded not to fight them.

 

[cestusdei]

Greetings and peace be with you cestusdei;

A Muslim might have got the same reception if he offered up his Friday prayers in public at the time of the Inquisitions.

It may not be possible to have meaningful interfaith dialogue by offering up a public Mass in Saudi Arabia but there are possibly other ways Muslims and Christians could talk respectfully together in Saudi.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

Actually the inquisition had no jurisdiction over muslims or any non-Christians. The whole point is that how can you have dialogue with someone who would unapologetically behead me for saying Mass in his country? What is there to talk about? Maybe asking him to use a sharper sword? We can have dialogue when they respect us as equals and acknowledge freedom of religion.

 

[Jayda]

hola,

Church inquisitions have no authority over non-Catholics, and do not result in torture and murder, ecclesia non sitit sanguinem.

the spanish inquisition were actually an institutionalized inquisition of the crown of Spain… it answered to Isabella and Fernan, not to the Holy Father or the Church… attributing the Spanish Inquisition to the Church is part of the black legend to make the Church look bad…

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Montalban]

Actually the inquisition had no jurisdiction over muslims or any non-Christians. The whole point is that how can you have dialogue with someone who would unapologetically behead me for saying Mass in his country? What is there to talk about? Maybe asking him to use a sharper sword? We can have dialogue when they respect us as equals and acknowledge freedom of religion.

A small point…
The inquistion first began against Cathars who were non-Catholics

It was used by the Dominican Order against these dualists in southern France following the so-called Albigensian Crusade

 

[Keikiolu]

similarly i can negate your statement by stating

“IChristianity is false simply because I believe Jesus is not one of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity, and therefore The church’s teachings are false and dont purport who he is, and any philosophy” based on church teachings are inherently bogus"

You’re absolutely right…!!

And if that is your true belief, run with it, and see where it leads.

Where DOES it lead you? (That is something we can talk about! )

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Re names - as Christians we must not put pbuh after Mohammed’s name - that implies a veneration we do not share. Clearly being disrespectful is not necessary, but using pbuh is tantamount to blasphemy IMO. The Mohammedans equate Mohammed to Jesus with this acclamation.
Mohammed was not his given name anyway - I can’t remember what it was.
Ali abu Abdullah or something?

 

[Keikiolu]

Greetings and peace be with you Keikiolu;

If I was a Muslim I would be offended by what you have said, who is Mamet? Their Prophet is Muhammad pbuh. You would not get a Muslim talking about Jesus in the way you talk about their prophet, they have a deep respect for all the prophets.

Mohamed, Muhammad,… it’s spelled any number of ways,… just as a moslem has been called various things through time, such as “musslman”, mohamedan, muslim, moslem, etc…

Jesus also has various spellings (and pronunciations) in the multitude of languages and dialects of languages of he world.

If they have respect for prophets, and they consider Jesus a prophet, then I believe that they have respect for Jesus.

If I have, at best, limited respect for people who call themselves prophets who can’t be, according to what they say, then I have “less than full respect” for those people.

I have “less than full respect” for Mamet, as to me he is a false prophet, while the moslem is fully entitled to have as much respect as they wish for Jesus, according to how they “judge and apply” respect.

I am a Catholic and I can truthfully say that I have been shown respect on two Muslim forums that I have posted on in the last year. There is obviously disagreement but I sense there is the room for a greater interfaith friendship despite all our differences.

I absolutely agree.

But I’d really love to see how you where “shown respect”, and what you cotributed to the discussion.

If you (and they) stated what you believed, both about your own faith and about theirs, and they responded with an agreement to disagree and move on to other matters, then I would agree that both you and they had a respectful and meaningful discussion.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith relations

Eric

Hear hear…!!

The point is to keep talking to those without our faith, and to keep them talking to us, in ways that are fully truthful and with the intent of spreading understanding.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

I remeber listening to an Indian Islamic scholar on you tube one time and one of the first things he did was recognize that with respects to Islam and Christianity their can only be four possbilities to truth.

1. The bible is true and the quran is false
2. the Quran is true and the bible is false
3. The Quran is true and so is the bible
4. Bothe the bible and Quran are false

until we as a whole can recognize these premises whther we like them or not we cant not further dialogue.

And what happens when one side takes #1, and the other side takes #2…?

You certainly can’t be suggesting that ALL of those premises NEED to be taken as a possibility before we can have further dialogue,… do you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jack_hawkins]

The thing I find with Muslims (from posting on FFI) is that it’s easy to find common ground if you don’t question them too closely, if you don’t realise that they mean different things by “peace”, “oppression” “religious tolerance” etc.
Once you ask them very specific questions, you will most likely be horrified by what even “moderate” Muslims believe.

 

[Keikiolu]

I agree, I am also a member of an interfaith Islam Group. They have never insulted me and I have never once heard the name Jesus uttered without saying (P)eace and (B)lessings (U)pon (H)im. And they sense when someone has already made their mind up to hate them all.

I remember one Muslima asking if one of members was really a christian, or was just playing around. She did not believe that he really was because she said Jesus would never act like that. He was not behaving Christ like. OUCH!!! And true might I add.

Moslems OFTEN reply to “perceived attacks” by Christians by asking if the Christian is REALLY a Christian.

The natural response to that, of course, is “What do you mean by whether I am really a Christian?”

The point of an “interfaith group” is to foster an understanding of how the “faiths” can live together. NOT why a moslem should stay a moslem or a christian should stay a Christian, or why either should switch.

The only way to set “groundrules” about how to live together is to find the irreconcilable points, which neither will budge on, and establish acceptable behaviors for each “side” that doesn’t violate those irreconcilable points.

If “being a Christian” by behavior is an “offense” in the context of an “interfaith group”, then the group itself is utterly meaningless and should be disbanded.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Greetings and peace be with you Auriel;

Thanks for your reply, there is one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen and the God I pray to created people who are Muslims, Christians, Hindu and atheist. Regardless of what any of us might believe the same God hears the prayers of Muslim, Christian, Hindu, and Jew.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith relations

Eric

Hear hear…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

hola,… {snip}…

So I think that even though I believe it is important to discuss the negative things about Islam with muslims, I think it is also important to do so with the right intention, love, rather than spite or anger. If we spend more time thinking about this before we speak I think some of these issues will melt away.

Dominus Vobiscum

Absolutely…!!

Speak always from love. Sometimes love sounds like something annoying or irritating.

Crosses are carried in love.

Crosses can be annoying, both to the carrier and to the observer.

People don’t need to THINK about how to TELL things in a “nice” way, they need to KNOW how to RECEIVE things in a LOVING way.

Cultivate being impossible to insult. If you CAN’T be insulted, then everything said is more useful information to hone in on the truth.

(( Of course you also have to cultivate forming your language in loving ways. ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I think with some Muslims though they need to be confronted in an uncompromiding way the unacceptable things about Islam. Actually, quite a proportion of Muslims don’t even now about Aisha for example. All over the world Muslims who have confronted the true nature of Islam have turned away from it. It is our job to make sure they realise the truth about Islam.

 

[Keikiolu]

The thing I find with Muslims (from posting on FFI) is that it’s easy to find common ground if you don’t question them too closely, if you don’t realise that they mean different things by “peace”, “oppression” “religious tolerance” etc.
Once you ask them very specific questions, you will most likely be horrified by what even “moderate” Muslims believe.

Which is why they don’t “dialogue” very much, and why they pull the “Are you a REAL Christian?!” card so often.

…any reason to distract the conversation from base beliefs is EAGERLY sought…!

(( Christians are notoriously easy to fluster, because of the seemingly contradictory commands to “spread the WORD” while “loving your enemy”. ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes exactly! Yes, the “are you a real Christian one” puzzles me, as many Muslims will implore Christians to turn the other cheek whilst boldly admitting as Muslims they have no duty to do that whatsoever!
Another example is Muslims living on social security deliberately as they see it as jizya from the infidels eg Abu Hamza.