Islam is simply not "discussable".

[Sagefrakrobatik]

And what happens when one side takes #1, and the other side takes #2…?
You certainly can’t be suggesting that ALL of those premises NEED to be taken as a possibility before we can have further dialogue,… do you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Why not? Religion is just mere speculation anyways. Dont get me wrong i am a Catholic and for the most part until convinced otherwise i will remain a Catholic. But there is no definitive or deductive way of proving the soundness of religion. There is no way of proving the validity of one religion supercedes that of another (unless of course your a trained theolgian or apologetic practitioner). The questions that must arise for any religious discssuion to take place especially in regards to the eternal question ‘what is truth’ must study the various religions based upon agreed upon stipulations and religious standards.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

And what happens when one side takes #1, and the other side takes #2…?

You certainly can’t be suggesting that ALL of those premises NEED to be taken as a possibility before we can have further dialogue,… do you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!

E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Why not? Religion is just mere speculation anyways.

I’d really rather not have to say it but, if you think that “religion is just mere speculation anyways”, that you really AREN’T a Catholic, but I may actually be forced to say that…!

If you think your religion is “speculation” and not Truth, then you can’t mean what you say when you proclaim the Creed(s).

If you aren’t sincere when you proclaim the Creed(s) as FACT, then are you REALLY a Catholic?

Dont get me wrong i am a Catholic and for the most part until convinced otherwise i will remain a Catholic. But there is no definitive or deductive way of proving the soundness of religion.

What would a “proof” of a religion’s “SOUNDNESS” look like,… to you?

I ask this because if you can’t answer this question, then you wouldn’t know what it looked like if it DID present itself, and therefore you could NEVER be satisfied that your “condition of proof” has been met.

If you can’t be convinced of a “proof”, then the issue (the soundness of any particular religion) is an utterly moot point, and “religion” is a meaningless thing to you.

There is no way of proving the validity of one religion supercedes that of another (unless of course your a trained theolgian or apologetic practitioner). The questions that must arise for any religious discssuion to take place especially in regards to the eternal question ‘what is truth’ must study the various religions based upon agreed upon stipulations and religious standards.

Belief in the true religion is based on the grace given only by God to “come to a decision” that one has found the Truth.

If you haven’t been “graced” with the power to make a decision concerning the true faith, then you simply haven’t, and you are utterly incapable of doing so.

Studying various “religions” gives one insights into the thinking of various peoples, and MAY point toward some of the eternal truths that are contained in the True religion (Christianity [Catholic]).

As with pudding, the proof of the Truth is in the tasting.

(( Literally,… as in the “Eucharist”. ))

If you ain’t there yet,… 'ya ain’t there yet.

But,… we’re all prayin’ for 'ya…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jonfan]

It would be good if this could happen.
Good luck with that.
If you refuse to conform to their view, you are dismissed as an “infidel” - worthy of death in their opinion.

These types of statements make me think really hard. Islam claims that those who have heard the truth and then rejected it are damned and in some instances sentenced to death. If one heard the truth why would he reject it?

 

[slyboots]

Why not? Religion is just mere speculation anyways. Dont get me wrong i am a Catholic and for the most part until convinced otherwise i will remain a Catholic. But there is no definitive or deductive way of proving the soundness of religion. There is no way of proving the validity of one religion supercedes that of another (unless of course your a trained theolgian or apologetic practitioner). The questions that must arise for any religious discssuion to take place especially in regards to the eternal question ‘what is truth’ must study the various religions based upon agreed upon stipulations and religious standards.

Your lack of conviction is concerning. What will you do in your hour of trial?
Islam would tell you convert or be a second class citizen or die.
And please do not say that formally was a position in the Church. I know that the Jews were persecuted. That witches were burned/hanged. Thay heretics were killed. That occurred in the past. It is not the Church now. But in Islamic states…Try proselytizing in Saudi. And presumably that country is friendly to the US.
By the lights you seem to profess with a little bit of coersion you would accept another faith. Is that so?
BTW, IMHO it is not really discussable because if a Muslim has the strength of his/her conviction and the Christian has the strength of his/her conviction then there is no way to come to consensus without adulterating both faiths and rendering them worthless. They can only agree to disagree.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsrus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

It would be good if this could happen.

Good luck with that.

If you refuse to conform to their view, you are dismissed as an “infidel” - worthy of death in their opinion.

These types of statements make me think really hard. Islam claims that those who have heard the truth and then rejected it are damned and in some instances sentenced to death. If one heard the truth why would he reject it?

Actually, that was (obviously) stolen directly from the Church (Catholic)…! (( Bolded text above. ))

So, we (islam and Christianity) are in agreement…!

The problem being, of course, that we have the Truth and they don’t.

It’s QUITE possible to hear the truth, and reject it. People do that by refusing to be Catholic every day.

The big difference between the islamic and Christian reaction to “rejection” is that moslems will kill you if they feel rejected.

We simply feel sorry for you, and continue to pray for you.

Which side sounds more confident in their “truth” to you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jonfan]

Actually, that was (obviously) stolen directly from the Church (Catholic)…! (( Bolded text above. ))

So, we (islam and Christianity) are in agreement…!

The problem being, of course, that we have the Truth and they don’t.

It’s QUITE possible to hear the truth, and reject it. People do that by refusing to be Catholic every day.

The big difference between the islamic and Christian reaction to “rejection” is that moslems will kill you if they feel rejected.

We simply feel sorry for you, and continue to pray for you.

Which side sounds more confident in their “truth” to you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

I understand that. But one has to have God’s grace to see the truth as well. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Muslims conversely talk about Allah blinding some people to the truth, or even Allah being the chief of all deceivers!

 

[jonfan]

Muslims conversely talk about Allah blinding some people to the truth, or even Allah being the chief of all deceivers!

Yes. This true. With regards to the crucifixtion the Quran says Allah decieved all the people and made it only seem like Christ was crucified. So God played a joke on all of us with Jesus’ crucifixtion just to lead people astray so Mohammed could save us? um…:nope:

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Actually, that was (obviously) stolen directly from the Church (Catholic)…! (( Bolded text above. ))

So, we (islam and Christianity) are in agreement…!

The problem being, of course, that we have the Truth and they don’t.

It’s QUITE possible to hear the truth, and reject it. People do that by refusing to be Catholic every day.

The big difference between the islamic and Christian reaction to “rejection” is that moslems will kill you if they feel rejected.

We simply feel sorry for you, and continue to pray for you.

Which side sounds more confident in their “truth” to you?
*

I understand that. But one has to have God’s grace to see the truth as well. Wouldn’t you agree?

God gives us all the grace to see the truth. No one is “forbidden” to see the truth.

God does not choose who are His, and who are not, by forbidding them from receiving Him.

But,… He may not “push particularly hard enough” to overcome the environmental conditions of some people, due to His own “plans”.

We ALL have the ability to see (and also to choose) the truth, which is to choose Him.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I remeber listening to an Indian Islamic scholar on you tube one time and one of the first things he did was recognize that with respects to Islam and Christianity their can only be four possbilities to truth.

1. The bible is true and the quran is false
2. the Quran is true and the bible is false
3. The Quran is true and so is the bible
4. Bothe the bible and Quran are false

until we as a whole can recognize these premises whther we like them or not we cant not further dialogue.

There are other alternatives:​

• 1. The Bible is true in part, the Koran is wholly true
• 1. The Koran is true in part, the Bible is wholly true
• 1. Both are true in part, on different matters - & complete each other
• 1. Both are true in part - but as they are wrong about the same things, they both need to be corrected by a more adequate revelation
     I think there are further possibilities ##

 

[jonfan]

Or there are other theories such as The Quran was taken from traditions and stories at the time that existed in Arabia. For example:

The Quran:

19:23 . . . [A]nd, when the pain of childbirth drove her to cling to the trunk of the palm tree, she exclaimed, ‘I wish I had been long dead and forgotten before all this!’ 24 but a voice cried to her from below, 'Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet 25 and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, 26 so eat, drink, be glad (Haleem)

Gospel of Pseudo—Matthew **
Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother’s lap, said to the palm: ‘Bend down your branches, O tree, and refresh my mother with your fruit.’ And immediately at this command [voice] the palm bent down to the feet of the blessed Mary, and they gathered from its fruit and they all refreshed themselves . . . [Addressing the palm, Jesus says:] ‘And open beneath your roots a vein of water . . . and let the waters flow’ . . . And when they saw the fountain of water, they greatly rejoiced and quenched their thirst . . . (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 463) **

gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm

Now if we can at least agree these stories and traditions already existed at the time of Mohammed we could have a discussion.

 

[slyboots]

islam.tc/ask-imam/questions/3039.html

I have read previous question and answers about Muslims marring non-Muslims. I am in love with a Muslim and we are will to get married. I have asked if it is expected for me to convert to Islam, and he tells me it is not necessary. As a Catholic now, I do not intent on converting my religion. I do have great respect for the religion of Islam. Maybe, after gaining knowledge about Islam I’ll decided to convert or not. What I want to know is if we marry and have children, what religion should the children be?
Answer 3039 2001-05-22

If you may marry the Muslim man in reference, the marriage will be valid.
The validity of the marriage does not depend on you accepting Islam.
However, we embrace the opportunity to advise you to gain more knowledge of
Islam now and revert to Islam before marriage. **Apart from the great rewards
and benefits of accepting Islam, reversion will be conducive to maintaining
consistency between you and your family, husband and children as they have
to be reared as Muslims. **
and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

Catholic mom raising her children as Muslims. I am certain that’s discussable.

 

[cestusdei]

Read the link that I posted earlier. It should be required reading of any Christian woman that marries a muslim.

 

[jack_hawkins]

islam.tc/ask-imam/questions/3039.html

I have read previous question and answers about Muslims marring non-Muslims. I am in love with a Muslim and we are will to get married. I have asked if it is expected for me to convert to Islam, and he tells me it is not necessary. As a Catholic now, I do not intent on converting my religion. I do have great respect for the religion of Islam. Maybe, after gaining knowledge about Islam I’ll decided to convert or not. What I want to know is if we marry and have children, what religion should the children be?
Answer 3039 2001-05-22

If you may marry the Muslim man in reference, the marriage will be valid.
The validity of the marriage does not depend on you accepting Islam.
However, we embrace the opportunity to advise you to gain more knowledge of
Islam now and revert to Islam before marriage. **Apart from the great rewards
and benefits of accepting Islam, reversion will be conducive to maintaining
consistency between you and your family, husband and children as they have
to be reared as Muslims. **
and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

Catholic mom raising her children as Muslims. I am certain that’s discussable.

Although a Muslim man may marry a Christian or Jewish woman (and the sexual politics of that differentiation alone are mind-boggling), he may under Islamic law force her to stay indoors and stop her praying, owning a Bible, praying the rosary as I understand it

 

[Booklover]

Which is why they don’t “dialogue” very much, and why they pull the “Are you a REAL Christian?!” card so often.

I laughed when I read this because there used to a Muslima here who was always accusing me of being a very bad Christian because I’d say very uncomplimentary things about Islam and Muhammad.

Vickie

 

[Kadaveri]

You understand wrong, Muhammad (saaw) said:

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html

 

[jack_hawkins]

You understand wrong, Muhammad (place bacon upon him ) said:

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html

said where? just in that charter? and not abrogated elsewhere?
I thought a Muslim man could force his wife to stay indoors regardless?

 

[pro_universal]

What was the point of that “place bacon upon him” taunt?

In what way did that advance the discussion, and how is Kadaveri now supposed to feel about your sincerity in discussing anything with him?

 

[jack_hawkins]

What was the point of that “place bacon upon him” taunt?

In what way did that advance the discussion, and how is Kadaveri now supposed to feel about your sincerity in discussing anything with him?

lighten up!

 

[Kadaveri]

Considering the charter says that no Muslim is to disobey it till the Last Day, I don’t see how you could claim it was “abrogated”. You may think you know more about Islam than Muhammad (saaw), but you can’t expect anyone other than the illiterati to agree with you.

And that’s all I have to say, good day to you.