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Kaninchen
Guest
Sikhs are pretty similar in outlook I think.
Islam, Judaism, Jehovah Witness, Baptist Church -- do they believe in the same God as Catholics?
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Kaninchen
Guest
I once got suspended for suggesting that the triumph of Christianity was to announce that everybody had an illness “we’re all doomed!” but that it was the cure, the only cure.
I never really understood why (why I was suspended) because all I was doing was paraphrasing what many Christians say.
Meanwhile:
I never really understood why (why I was suspended) because all I was doing was paraphrasing what many Christians say.
Meanwhile:
Micah 6:8
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Cor_ad_Cor
Guest
@englands123
Search is your friend. There is (was?) a rule, at least at one time on these forums, that you couldn’t start a thread repeating a topic already discussed until you had searched to see if it had been discussed before and brought something new to the discussion.
We just hashed this same thing out about a month ago. All of these you mention, per the Catechism, share the same ancestral faith of Abraham, so per the Church, the answer is yes.
Search is your friend. There is (was?) a rule, at least at one time on these forums, that you couldn’t start a thread repeating a topic already discussed until you had searched to see if it had been discussed before and brought something new to the discussion.
We just hashed this same thing out about a month ago. All of these you mention, per the Catechism, share the same ancestral faith of Abraham, so per the Church, the answer is yes.
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steph03
Guest
The fact that Islam does not recognize Jesus as Divine, the Son of God, or God incarnate, and also that they do not believe in Christ’s Crucifiction, death and resurrection (the very basis of Christianity) does make it different in my book.
It may have the same root, but grew up in an entirely different way.
No disrespect intended.
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SalamKhan
Guest
Judaism doesn’t recognise Jesus at all. So how can any individual claim that Islam is a “completely different religion” and at the same time say that Judaism doesn’t recognise the Trinity and so they do & don’t worship the same God as Christians?
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Imagine we two, sitting in a room discussing the nature of God (Exalted is He).
You say He is the: ‘One true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.’ (Fourth Lateran Council - Constitutions: 1. Confession of faith).
I say He is indeed the One true God; one person , eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, with one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.
Are we discussing two Beings – each of which is eternal and immeasurable, almighty*, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, with one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature – or are we simply disagreeing as to the nature of the One?
I suggest we are simply disagreeing as to the nature of the One.
*The clue is in this word; for how can there be more than one ‘almighty’ Being?
You say He is the: ‘One true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.’ (Fourth Lateran Council - Constitutions: 1. Confession of faith).
I say He is indeed the One true God; one person , eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, with one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.
Are we discussing two Beings – each of which is eternal and immeasurable, almighty*, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, with one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature – or are we simply disagreeing as to the nature of the One?
I suggest we are simply disagreeing as to the nature of the One.
*The clue is in this word; for how can there be more than one ‘almighty’ Being?
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PetraG
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It could be that sort of quibbling will evaporate. It’s going to be a rather awesome moment, after all. The prospect of more serious wailing and gnashing of teeth will probably be at the forefront for those whose joy is not so immense that nothing trivial matters any more.
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PetraG
Guest
Primarly because Our Lord Himself was Jewish and prayed to His Father as selfsame with the one and only Holy One of the Jews, I would imagine. He didn’t say, “Mecca, Medina, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!” No, He said He was sent to the children of Israel. He said nothing about the children of Ishmael particularly, one way or the other.
Also, Christianity does not teach that God has forsaken Israel:
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise [in] your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Rom. 11:25-29
As for adherents to any other religion, "…he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:8-11
Those who are to be saved will eventually have their ignorance removed and will come to a true knowledge of the Son of God, a truth which they will embrace.
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SalamKhan
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You say Jesus did not, but you should know God did (Genesis 21:17-21). Are you acknowledging that Jesus is not God?
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steph03
Guest
There is a big difference here. Christians completely agree with what was revealed by God to Judaism. Christianity doesn’t claim that Judaism as a faith was wrong or “lost their way” through time. Christianity is just accomplishing what was promised in Judaism. With further revelations came new knowledge. Of course Judaism doesn’t agree with this new knowledge. But until Christ came, Christianity beleives that Judaism was 100% correct with God’s revelation.steph03:
Judaism doesn’t recognise Jesus at all. So how can any individual claim that Islam is a “completely different religion” and at the same time say that Judaism doesn’t recognise the Trinity and so they do & don’t worship the same God as Christians?
Islam on the other hand contradicts Chistianity on many issues, claiming Christians got it wrong or lost their way. Is goes further in saying that the basis (Crucifiction, death, Resurrection) of Christianity is simply wrong.
I have to ask, Do muslims feel that the Bahai faith worships the same God as they do in Islam?
The Bahai faith only claims to be a continuation of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Always a lot easier discussing what God ‘is not’ rather than what God ‘is’.
I don’t reject the nature of God (Exalted is He). I reject the notion of God that you would have me accept…and that is quite a different matter.
I’m glad you agree that there can be only one Almighty Being. ONE GOD…the One that you and I worship. He requires of us both only that we act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him.
I’m glad you agree that there can be only one Almighty Being. ONE GOD…the One that you and I worship. He requires of us both only that we act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Always seems to be the most difficult part.
Indeed to both your posts.
May HaShem bless you, and Mr Kaninchen, and bring both of you to Himself.
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Kaninchen
Guest
And may you and your loved ones share in the World to Come.
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PetraG
Guest
Let me clarify: I’m not defending the position, per se. I’m explaining how someone could have it. I see Islam as an Abrahamic religion. I do not think there is any question who a Muslim worships. The attributes of the Creator may be at issue, but Who the Muslims believe that is? It is the same. They don’t say otherwise.
This is what I mean: the Muslims believe that they worship the same deity that the Jews and the Christians do, just the the Jews and the Christians have a wrong-headed view of what it is that Heaven desires for humankind. I think that much is pretty clear.
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Ze me’od adiv metzidkha.
PS: And yes…I had to look it up!
PPS: Hope I got it right!!
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SalamKhan
Guest
Jesus apparently does the latter in the New Testament. Christians in the early centuries (well probably until the modern period) seemed to feel the latter as well. Not to mention other followers of Jesus (such as ‘Gnostic’ groups) in the early centuries who actually did claim the former and not simply the latter.
This positive outlook on Judaism is more of a modern position. Regardless, which Judaism was 100% correct anyway? Were the Sadducees correct? The Pharisees? The Essenes?
There is only one verse in the Qur’an on the crucifixion of Jesus, and just because an interpretation of it is popular, doesn’t mean it’s the only interpretation of that verse. I’ve mentioned many times on this forum there is at least one position (the Ismaili Shia position) that the crucifixion did in fact take place.
It claims to be a continuation of all major religions, and claims them to be true. Whereas Islam claims to be a continuation & completion/perfection of the religion of Abraham.
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SalamKhan
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Okay, thanks. It took Christians a long time to accept the idea of a ‘Judeo-Christian’ tradition, for a long time they were antagonistic towards Judaism. Eventually, Christians will overcome more ignorance and come around to accepting the idea of Islam as an Abrahamic religion.
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