Islam: Peace or Plague?

[Salvo]

Ken:

Europe was the bastion of Christian culture. It destroyed itself. What the pope said isn’t important. It’s simple. Christian societies and cultures killed millions. They killed Christians, and they killed Jews. And the attitudes that led to the Holocaust grew and thrived in a Christian continent. Note the apology by the current pope.

Christians will say that people from their culture who commit atrocities are not really Christians and do not represent Christianity. Then they will say that the acts of any Muslim represent all Muslims.

This does not mean that Christian cultures are any worse than other cultures. It just means they are no better.

This is entirely too simplistic and a non-sequitor. This is like saying China was a bastion of Buddhist culture, and therefore Buddhists are responsible for the killing of millions in Tiananmen square. Complete lack of logic.

To understand the what happened in Europe, specifically Germany, you have to look at what happened in the end of the 19th century. Read Nietzche and Marx, then watch a Wagnerian opera and tell me how “Christian” Europe was. Western Europe had spent the entire century after the “Age of Englightenment” moving towards secularisation and racist ideology based on the new theories of evolution. Nazism was based on all of these trends and it manipulated the fears and anti-jewish sentiment which had preceded it for centuries.

Once again, since you failed to either understand or acknowledge the previous point: if the Nazis had commited these attrocities in the name of the church, then you would have a point. But they did not. You cannot blame Christianity because people who rejected it went out and commited attrocities. Ludicrous. Joseph Stallin was not only born a Christian, but was also a seminarian studying for the priesthood. Do you blame Orthodoxy for the attrocities of Communists? Ludicrous.

As I stated, the Muslim terrorists commited these acts in the name of Islam. You cannot dispute this fact. And regardless of whether or not you agree that Christians are better or worse historically, you can not find any words spoken by Christ to condone taking another person’s life. Meanwhile, the Qur’an not only encourages it but details what to do before an after.

If you cannot see the differences here, then I hope you learn by personaly experience very soonl.

 

[Salvo]

JCPhoenix:

Uh, I’d like to ask another question. Since they are acting in the name of God (Allah) then why is God allowing it?

I believe that terrorism at the hands of the Islamic Extremists are by God’s will, and we are going to lose because God may very well be on their side in order to punish our sins and bring us back to him.

JCPhoenix,

God allows it because he gave all humans the gift of free will. He does not controll us like chess pieces. Evil exists in the world because we allow it. In every action we can choose to commit God, which is of God, or do evil, which is the lack of God.

To say God is punishing us is bad theology. God does not punish innocent people collectively. I’m guessing you are not Catholic so you may not understand all of this. But you are only responsible for your own salvation and relationship with God. Jesus commands us to go out and preach to all who will listen. If they do not, you are not to be held responsible. So, God did not punish your country for the evil of abortion, gay marriage, no prayer in school etc. Got it?

LANCE,

If I were you, I’d put my faith in God and not nuclear arms. Much more powerful.

 

[Ken]

Salvo:

This is entirely too simplistic and a non-sequitor. This is like saying China was a bastion of Buddhist culture, and therefore Buddhists are responsible for the killing of millions in Tiananmen square. Complete lack of logic.

To understand the what happened in Europe, specifically Germany, you have to look at what happened in the end of the 19th century. Read Nietzche and Marx, then watch a Wagnerian opera and tell me how “Christian” Europe was. Western Europe had spent the entire century after the “Age of Englightenment” moving towards secularisation and racist ideology based on the new theories of evolution. Nazism was based on all of these trends and it manipulated the fears and anti-jewish sentiment which had preceded it for centuries.

Once again, since you failed to either understand or acknowledge the previous point: if the Nazis had commited these attrocities in the name of the church, then you would have a point. But they did not. You cannot blame Christianity because people who rejected it went out and commited attrocities. Ludicrous. Joseph Stallin was not only born a Christian, but was also a seminarian studying for the priesthood. Do you blame Orthodoxy for the attrocities of Communists? Ludicrous.

As I stated, the Muslim terrorists commited these acts in the name of Islam. You cannot dispute this fact. And regardless of whether or not you agree that Christians are better or worse historically, you can not find any words spoken by Christ to condone taking another person’s life. Meanwhile, the Qur’an not only encourages it but details what to do before an after.

If you cannot see the differences here, then I hope you learn by personaly experience very soonl.

If we blame all of Islam because some guys say they are acting in the name of Islam, then we give power to a small minority to pass guilt to the far larger majority.

Would Christianity really be to blame if Hitler said he was acting in the name of Christianity? Did Hitler have that power? Would you recognize it if invoked? Is that your argument?

There may be no words attributed to Christ telling people to kill, but there are many instances in the OT where words attributed to God tell people to kill. I think details were included.

Do you disown the OT? If so, can Muslims disown parts of the Quran?

Were Nietzche and Marx products of a Christian culture?

 

[Salvo]

Ken:

If we blame all of Islam because some guys say they are acting in the name of Islam, then we give power to a small minority to pass guilt to the far larger majority.

Ken,

You’ve really bitten off more than you can chew here. If these questions are not simple baiting tactics, then they clearly show you have little knowledge of Christian doctrine, and much less of Islam.

If we blame all of Islam because some guys say they are acting in the name of Islam, then we give power to a small minority to pass guilt to the far larger majority. Which “minority” are you referring to? The minority of Muslims who actually commited terrorism such as 9/11 or suicide bombings, or the MAJORITY of Muslims who support them? Because it is a fact that the vast majority of Muslims polled world-wide from Indonesia to the UK supported these acts. The only place they didn’t support it in majority opinion was in the US, not surprisingly.

Would Christianity really be to blame if Hitler said he was acting in the name of Christianity? Did Hitler have that power? Would you recognize it if invoked? Is that your argument? Hitler was in no way a religious authority within Christianity. He, Himmler and Goebbels founded they’re own Nazi religion based on Aryan supremecy and Norse mythology in which Hitler was the leader, but that still gives him no spiritual power over Chrisitans. So, obviously we would not have recognised it if he had invoked it. The Catholic church has a strict heirarchy and it always has. Now, Islam on the other hand has not clerics, no heirarchy. These Imams you always hear about are the equivalent to “youth ministers” in the Christian world, in that there is no ordination, no sacrament to them. Anyone who studies the Qur’an, Tasfir, Hadith and Sunnah can become an Imam. Their power and authority comes only from those who acknowledge them as authorities on the Qur’an. Ussama bin Ladin was just as much an Imam as the ones appointed by the Saudi royal family. And Ussama has a lot more followers than they do. So, when he calls for a jihad against the west and orders people to commit terrorism based on the passages from the Qur’an which call for it, he is in aboslute right under Islam to do so. Of course many Muslims and Imams disagree with him. But it took over two years for **ANY **Imam to denounce these actions in a fatwa (which is incidentally only binding to the people who follow that particular Imam).

There may be no words attributed to Christ telling people to kill, but there are many instances in the OT where words attributed to God tell people to kill. I think details were included. Catholics do not take the Old Testament literally, nor do even Orthodox Jews. We do not believe God ordered the killing of any innocent people. The Old Testament stories need to be read in the light of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The language of the time used much allegory and hyperbole. And once again, if God had wanted the destruction of any people, He would have said so when He was here on earth with us.

Do you disown the OT? If so, can Muslims disown parts of the Quran? See above for the first part. And no, Muslims cannot dissown the Qur’an. If they even try, such as the case of Taslima Nasreen in Bengladesh, they will be hunted down to be killed as apostates.

Were Nietzche and Marx products of a Christian culture? Not a simple answer. Are Einstein, Golda Meier, Ben Gurion, Malcolm X etc products of Christian culture? Does a person who disavows the culture and society around him and distances himself from it as much as possible still get to be considered a “product” of it?

 

[JCPhoenix]

Lance:

Jesus said, "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. " Don’t put your faith in nukes…those will destroy us all.

Salvo…God does in fact punish. You used the word yourself…free will. Consequences of our actions. Those aren’t always apparent, but can you not say that our country (the US) has fallen deeply into sin? Our legislators are trying to remove God from our society and Catholic politicians are publicly denying the truth yet continuing to recieve Communion. We are all a part of that society and by our silence in many areas we are allowing this evil to pervade us.

God does indeed punish us for our wrongdoing through our own free will, and he allows us to touch the fire when we don’t heed the teachings. We learn from our mistakes and from our sins. If the enemy wins, it will not persevere against the Church itself, just as the Jews remained the Chosen People. But we, through our own sin, will be punished at the hands of the enemy. Just like the Chosen people.

I cited the Bible here, or were you not paying attention to the story? I’m sorry I couldn’t provide the exact chapter and verse, but I KNOW that in teh OT the Assyrians were allowed by God to overcome the Isrealites and push them from their land so that they would learn from their mistakes.

Yes, we have free will, and yes we exercise it…but sometimes our free will brings down punishment that God allows. I have examples up the wazoo from my own life to prove that point, but I don’t believe those tales belong in this thread.

Read the Bible, my friend…you may not remember the exact verses, but you’ll be amazed at what God has done and therefore could do again.

I suggest you start praying, start reading, and batten down the hatches in case God allows the terrorists to overcome us…because they are not done.

Praise God, neither are we.

 

[mkupka]

Ken:

I think Christians were the main participants in WWII in Europe. Both sides were Christian cultures. There is no real need to list atrocities from that time. Is Christianity a plague based on the actions of the Germans, Austrians, Italians, and Russians? Those were actions, not words.

The Islamists are the enemy. They are primarily Arab and Pakistani. There are one billion Muslims. There are 250 million Arabs and 160 million Pakistanis.

You ignore what is happening in Sub Saharan Africa, The Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Maylasia. The Islamists are a global problem. They are not limited to the Arab/Pakistani variety.

Ken:

The hostility of some Christians to other religions should not divert us from the real danger by insisting that people who do not comply with Christianity are a threat to us.

I would not attribute concern over historic views of current events to Christian hostility. Islam has 1300 years full of reasons for concern.

They still harbor deeply seated ill will over the Crusades, and they started those wars. Sore losers!!

 

[Salvo]

JCPhoenix,

I never said God doesn’t punish. I said He does not punish the innocent. That is Catholic doctrine. If you are not Catholic you are free to believe what you want.

 

[Ken]

Salvo,

1. Can you provide that poll finding the vast majority of Muslims supported 9/11? From what I have read, people I have spoken to, and Muslim newspapers I have read the opposite is the more accurate case.
2. Is it your position that since Islam has no single hierarchy any and every imam speaks for all Muslims? Christianity also has no single hierarchy. Does every Christian preacher speak for all Christians?
3. It’s nice that Catholics don’t believe that God told people to commit genocide. But that’s what the book says.
4. Many Christians and many Catholics take the bible as written, including all the OT blood.
5. If Catholics can choose what parts of their book to take literally, so can Muslims. Many Muslims take the Quran in the same manner as the Catholics bible treatment you described. They look at the totality, rather than individual verses. They note the bloody passages in the bible too, but they understand that it also is taken in its totality by many Christians.
6. There have been times in the history of Christianity where everyone was forced to take the bible literally. There are many Christian denominations that take it literally today. There have been similar times in Islam, and there may be places where one is prohibited today from saying it is not completely literal. There may even be places where they will be killed, but that is certainly not the rule over the Muslim world. Even in Saudi Arabia there is lively debate about passages in the Quran and their meaning and interpretation. People are not hunted down and killed.
7. Einstein, Golda Meier, Ben Gurion, and Malcolm X were products of Christian culture. I am using “Christian culture” here in the same way we speak of “Muslim culture.” Both Christianity and Islam share the cultures in which they reside with other powers.

 

[Ken]

mkupka:

You ignore what is happening in Sub Saharan Africa, The Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Maylasia. The Islamists are a global problem. They are not limited to the Arab/Pakistani variety.

I would not attribute concern over historic views of current events to Christian hostility. Islam has 1300 years full of reasons for concern.

They still harbor deeply seated ill will over the Crusades, and they started those wars. Sore losers!!

Does that mean Christianity is or is not a plague due to the actions of Christian cultures in WWII?

What is happening in Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Maylasia that would make those countries our enemies?

How many years of bloody warfare did Christian Europe have? Does that make it a plague? Have Christians or Muslims killed more of their own kind?

 

[Salvo]

KEN,

1. Can you provide that poll finding the vast majority of Muslims supported 9/11? As I mentioned, the only place the numbers came out as more Muslims were against 9/11 was in the American media, because that’s what the govt here wanted everyone to hear. The sources I can provide are from European (I only just moved back to the US recently) specifically Corriere della sera and the Daily telegraph. I don’t know if they have online sources but you are free to look.

2. Is it your position that since Islam has no single hierarchy any and every imam speaks for all Muslims? I already answered that. an Imam only speaks for Islam in so far as those who follow him believe he does. Please pay better attention to the posts so we don’t have to re-answer questions.

Christianity also has no single hierarchy. Does every Christian preacher speak for all Christians? Christianity (i.e. Catholicsm and Orthodoxy) absolutely have a single heirarchy. The other sects are of no import and do not stand or speak for Christianity.

3. It’s nice that Catholics don’t believe that God told people to commit genocide. But that’s what the book says. Do you also take all works of poetry and works of fantasy or myth as fact? When you saw Lord of the Rings, did you take it literally as fact? Or did you understand that it was a story? I’m hoping the latter. The bible is far more deep than “it says so right here” literal passages.

4. Many Christians and many Catholics take the bible as written, including all the OT blood. Catholics: as written, yes, definitely. Literally, no, absolutely not. Other Christian sects definitely do. But they are also heretics and do not speak for Christianity.

5. If Catholics can choose what parts of their book to take literally, so can Muslims. No, they can’t. Not according to the Shari’a.

Many Muslims take the Quran in the same manner as the Catholics bible treatment you described. Yes, they represent maybe 1% of Muslims (if that). I have met several. This objective approach to the Qur’an is a modern occurence spawned by western educated Muslims who seek to reconcile Islam with the Qur’an. Sufi’s have always taken a similar approach historically. But they are seen as heretical to mainstream Muslims.

6. There are many Christian denominations that take it literally today. Look at your browser. This is Catholic answers. For the topic of this discussion, please refrain from saying, “Other Christian sects…” as they have not basis here. Catholics cannot be held responsible for what heretics do or do not believe. We have no power or authority over therm, so it does not help your argument (if there is one at this point).

There have been similar times in Islam, and there may be places where one is prohibited today from saying it is not completely literal. There may even be places where they will be killed, but that is certainly not the rule over the Muslim world. Even in Saudi Arabia there is lively debate about passages in the Quran and their meaning and interpretation. People are not hunted down and killed. Every country which employs the Shari’a takes the Qur’an literally. The vast majorty of Islam is subject to the Shari’a. To say, “there are lively debates about the Qur’an” is ludicrous. Of course there are and have always been “lively debates”. That’s why there is a Tafsir. But these debates do not consist of whether or not they are to be taken as literal. To even suggest as much in Saudi or any other Islamic country will at best lose you all of your credibility and at worst, yes, you will be killed as a blasphemer.

7. Einstein, Golda Meier, Ben Gurion, and Malcolm X were products of Christian culture. Both Christianity and Islam share the cultures in which they reside with other powers. Well, that’s your opinion. I disagree.

 

[flick427]

I had a comparitive religion class in high school. I was taught by my Catholic Faith that the Angel Gabriel appeared to the Virgin Mary to tell her that she was going to give birth to the Messiah, that of course is my belief.
I was taught that according to Islam, that the Angel Gabriel was the one who told Muhammed what to do. According to Islam, Jesus was just a prophet and Muhammed was supposed to be the greatest of prophets.
Would the Angel Gabriel tell the Virgin Mary one thing, and then come back several hundred years later and say. “oh, my bad, I goofed, hear is the real story”…NEGATIVE, then he would be contradicting himself. I’ve got news for you, it wasn’t the Angel Gabriel who appeared to Muhammed.
So, I believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. Islam, I believe was founded by a man who got his information from the wrong “angel”. So, while I do not condemn an individual Muslim and would welcome one into my home provided they were respectful of my beliefs, I condisider their religion an absolute heretical belief system that was made up to decieve the Christians and other beliefe at the time…people forget how many Christians were “converted” into Muslims by the “manifest destiny” (borrowed term) of the Muhammedans. Today, the same thing happens and Islam seeks to eat away at Christianity, however it is sometimes peceful and not always “by the sword” as it was in the past. Therefore, it is a serious threat to Christianity.
Is this what you are looking for???

 

[Ken]

Salvo,

1. How do you demonstrate that the European press has better information than the US press? How do you demonstrate that the US press was controlled by the US government?
2. I’m glad you don’t think that every imam speaks for Islam.
3. Are there Christians who are neither Catholics nor Orthodox? Are Lutherans Christians? Episcopalians? Baptists? Presbyterians? Billy Graham?
4. The Quran is far more deep than “it says so right here” literal passages.
5. There are about one billion protestants. Do they have a voice in Christianity? Who speaks for them? The pope?
6. Regardless of what the Sharia says, Muslims do choose what they will take literally, just as Christians do.
7. How do you know that only 1% of Mulsims interpret the bible in the same way you describe for Catholics? I have met hundreds who do, and read about many more. Mainstream Islam does not exist. It is a function of individual societies and cultures. Islam in Saudi Arabia is very different from Islam in Indonesia.
8. I see that this is Catholic Answers. However, I don’t care. I will freely refer to any and all denominations as making up Christianity. Your power is not important.
9. I don’t suggest that debates and discussions about taking the Quran literally occur in Saudi Arabia. I firmly state it. I also firmly state that people are not killed as a result of such discussion. One man was beheaded in Qatif in 1996 when he said Mohammed was just like any other man. However, the townspeople said that authorities had been looking for an excuse to get rid of him because of his agitation for rights for the Shi’ites.
10. Is there such a thing as a Christian culture? If so, where does it exist?

 

[Salvo]

1. How do you demonstrate that the European press has better information than the US press? How do you demonstrate that the US press was controlled by the US government? Different topic. Ask that question on the Politics board. But let me just say this: it is pretty obvious.

2. I’m glad you don’t think that every imam speaks for Islam. Whether you are glad or not is irrelevant to the conversation.

3. Are there Christians who are neither Catholics nor Orthodox? Are Lutherans Christians? Episcopalians? Baptists? Presbyterians? Billy Graham? They are all heretics. Errant sects of Christianity who believe lies. Post the question on another thread for further detail. It is irrelevant for this particular topic.

4. The Quran is far more deep than “it says so right here” literal passages. No, it isn’t. You don’t have enough info here, so I’d advise you to learn about the subjject befvore you continue.

5. There are about one billion protestants. Do they have a voice in Christianity? Who speaks for them? The pope? They have no voice in Christian doctrine, dogma or matters of morals or faith. They speak for themselves. It is Satan who guides them ultimately. Once again, topic for a different thread.

6. Regardless of what the Sharia says, Muslims do choose what they will take literally, just as Christians do. Most Muslims are illiterate and have never read the Qur’an. Once again, you don’t have much knowledge here.

7. How do you know that only 1% of Mulsims interpret the bible in the same way you describe for Catholics? I have met hundreds who do, and read about many more. Mainstream Islam does not exist. It is a function of individual societies and cultures. Islam in Saudi Arabia is very different from Islam in Indonesia. So, you know “hundreds” of Muslims? Hyperbole is the sign of a very weak argument. Rather than going all over the board grasping at straws, please outline exactly how there is a difference between Islam in Saudi and Indonesia. How is there no mainstream Islam? What have you read, specifically? If you have any insight on the subject (severely doubtful) I’d love to hear it.

8. I see that this is Catholic Answers. However, I don’t care. I will freely refer to any and all denominations as making up Christianity. Your power is not important. And I am free to bring in the Ahmadis, Ishmailis, Sufis, Bah’ais etc who are not recognised as Muslim by mainstream Islam. Only I don’t do that because I realise it is a red herring. Maybe you should too.

9. I don’t suggest that debates and discussions about taking the Quran literally occur in Saudi Arabia. I firmly state it. I also firmly state that people are not killed as a result of such discussion. One man was beheaded in Qatif in 1996 when he said Mohammed was just like any other man. However, the townspeople said that authorities had been looking for an excuse to get rid of him because of his agitation for rights for the Shi’ites. And I say, I don’t believe you. Prove it.

1. Is there such a thing as a Christian culture? If so, where does it exist? The only Christian theocracy I am aware of is the Vatican. A Christian culture would be one where not only is Christianity present in the land, but the governing laws are based on its doctrine and dogma. Since World War II, I don’t know of any. Possibly Ireland up to 20 years ago. Maybe Malta.

 

[Pro_Iesu]

I don’t see how Islam and Christianity coincide especially in Saudi Arabia and many African countries where Catholicism and other religions are prohibited from going to Mass or worshipping. A Catholic/christian is not able to wear a crucifix or cross in public or will face time in jail.( my neighbor a presbyterian and his family lived there for about 4-5 years. Last January I believe there were two christian Pakistanis who were tortured to death(two seperate incidents) with one first for supposedly blsapheming Islam(died due to beatings, the other being kidnapped by some youth from a local Muslim school and tortured by having his finger nails pulled out beatings,though he was never convicted in court nor was there any evidence to suggest he had said anything to the extent of attacking Islam.( this was not from the US media)

I have plenty of Muslim friends who are nice, smart and understanding but I do not accept their religion as the true religion.When I had a discussion with a couple of Muslims my age( I was 16 at the time of the convo now 17) who I know have read the Qu’ran all the way through at least once etc, We remained quite cordial in our discussions. I answered every question he gave me to such an extent with history, the bible, common sense that he began to look for other aspects within the topic that we could talk about(some topics we jsut couldn’t agree or settle sadly). At one point there were 3 Muslims asking me all sorts of questions and thank God I was able to respond with the correct information in a calm and cordial matter.What struck me most was that when I stated that Moses and Abraham had sinned (Moses killed a man, Abraham commited the sexual act with sarah’s servant) the two Muslims began an argument amongst themselves, not vicious fighting but a very heated argument which showed me there was much strife between their communities even if friends at school.

The Qu’ran has many contradictions within itself to such a point that I don’t believe there is any doubt that the book is a mix of pagan, heretical christian, jewish holy books an practices. ( I haven’t read all of it, but I’ve read enough to see contradicitions with their own core beliefs that their theologians try to use vague interpretations or try to focus on a different topic)

Personally IMHO there is no true bastion for there are many people all over the world who are self proclaimed christians but are unbelieving or do not practice their faith, muslims who do the same, jews etc. . .

How and why would you use Nazism which killed christians, jews, and gypsies, who distanced themselves from christianity by following perverted/twisted forms of christian doctrine and occultist practices to control the masses?

Communists killed millions of Catholic priests and lay including Latin rite, eastern rite, and orthodox. Communism strived for the eradication of religion in order for there to be no way or chance that the peoples would beging to fight for themselves and the rights granted to them by God. Yes some orthodox supported the communist regime in fear that they would be destroyed for before the revolution they had supported the Tsar.( that did not fare well with the bolshevik revolutionaries)

I don’t trust the press of either the US, Europe or Islam, I would choose to believe only the hispanic press.

Christians are not supposed to beleive whatever they wish there is dogma and moral teaching that is infallible so that a good historically backed, faithful, bible reading, orthodox christian knows what exactly to beleive.( if you got quesitons to why dogma teaching etc and who has the authority ask in another thread)

But Islam is a very complex religion that seeks its promulgation by whichever means peacefully, by terror, or war.

And anywho if Ken and Salvo wish to keep discussing maybe y’all can do it in one of those private chats please.Good (name removed by moderator)uts though! (I don’t mean to be rude just i think it’d be easier for you two)

 

[JCPhoenix]

Salvo:

JCPhoenix,

I never said God doesn’t punish. I said He does not punish the innocent. That is Catholic doctrine. If you are not Catholic you are free to believe what you want.

I am Catholic, and I suggest you check your theology. Remember Job? Remember he was innocent? No, he wasn’t punished…but God let Satan wreak havoc on him. This is a form of punishment.

Every day we are punished for consequences, some of which are not the result of our actions, but of the actions of others. This is punishmen, whether we want to call it that or not. POINT: if the terrorists attack and win in the U.S, the innocent will suffer along with the guilty.

FACT: We, as Catholics, are to offer up that suffering in reparation for sin. THAT my friend, is Catholic theology.

Let’s get back to my point for I fear you misunderstood. When the Assyrians gained victory over the Isrealites (if it was in fact the Assyrians) innocent Isrealites…those who were devout and not worshipping false gods, etc…were also victims of that attack and subsequent expusion from the Promised land.

POINT: if the terrorists attack and win in the U.S, the innocent will suffer along with the guilty. I guarantee you that there were guilty people (guilty of various sins) in the towers that fell, along with innocent people. Did you not pay attention to the people flocking to the various churches to worship and pray? That attack served God’s purpose, although to this day we don’t and may never know exactly what that purpose is.

If I could provide the Biblical verses (of the OT story) for you to review I would do so, which is why I have asked others who DO know the Bible, chapter and verse, to assist.

Salvo, please read the Bible and consider what past mistakes in our Judeo-Christian history may still be applicable today. The Bible is not obsolete and if we don’t learn from our history, we will repeat it as God wills.

I, like you, do not wish for the terrorists to win…but if God wills them to do so for a purpose, they will. End of story and no amount of debating Catholic theology or doctrine on the subject will change what God ultimately wills.

 

[Ken]

1. You made the claim that the vast majority of Muslims supported 9/11. You based this on the claim that the European press was more accurate than the US government controlled US press. You did it on this thread. Now you can’t answer why, but say it’s obvious. If it’s so obvious, then just tell us.
2. Does your answer about Lutherans and Billy Graham mean they are or are not Christians? Your parenthetical qualification of Christians as Catholics and Orthodox on this thread prompted the question. What is the answer? What does the pope say? His answer trumps everyone else, doesn’t it?
3. The Quran, like the bible, has been studied for centuries by both Islamic and Christian scholars. Millions of people have taken inspiration and comfort from both books for centuries. While some on each side resent the fact that their book has competition, the fact remains that they have both proven beneficial to their societies.
4. The billion protestants have a strong voice in Christianity. They may not have a strong voice in Catholicism, but Christianity is not limited to Catholics. The inroads the Evangelicals are making in Catholic South America, and the head to head competition between Catholic and Protestant missionaries in Africa leaves in doubt which side will have more members in ten years. (In terms of proper threads, remember, you are the one who defined Christianity as Catholic and Orthodox on this thread.)
5. Most Muslims are not illiterate. You said most Muslims are illiterate and have never read the Quran. Here are literacy rates for countries with large Muslim populations. Indnesia alone has 210 million Muslims.
   Indonesia 88%
   India 60%
   Turkey 86%
   Egypt 57%
   Iran 80%
   Pakistan 45%
   Saudi Arabia 80%
   Iraq 40%
   Sudan 61%
   cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
6. Each society in which Islam is the dominant religion has characteristics which it attributes to Islam, yet are not found in other Islamic societies. These are cultural characteristics. For example the Saudi treatment of women is a very strong and obvious characteristic of their society. Women have very little freedom of personal choice. They cannot drive, work in occupations where they contact men, and cannot travel without being accompanied by a husband, brother, or son. Saudis attribute this to Islam.

However, Indnesians do not treat women as the Saudis do. They say that Islam does not demand such practices. Likewise, the Indonesians have incorporated Hindu and Buddhist customs and traditions from their pre-Islamic days into Islam. These include ancestor veneration, incense, holidays, saints and local holy places. The Indonesians say this is all part of Islam. The Saudis don’t.

This pattern is repeated in each of the islamic societies, and that is why we find no mainstream Islam. We find Turks, Saudis, Indonesians, and Iranians who practice Islam, each a different culture, and each flavoring it locally.
(continued)

 

[Ken]

(continued)

1. Perhaps I should restate my claim to know hundreds of Muslims. If I look back over the years, it’s more accurate to say I have easily known over a thousand. I have lost touch with many. Some have died, and I have relocated many times. But I have easily known hundreds who have interpreted the Quran with the same approach you claim of Catholics dealing with the bible. I know this because I asked and they told me.
2. Feel free to bring up Ahmadis, Ishmailis, and Sufis. I don’t care. Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Episcoplalians are also fair game. This is particularly true since there is no mainstream Christianity. Nobody speaks for all of Christianity, just as nobody speaks for all Islam.
3. I’d still like to know how you know that only 1% of Muslims interpret the Quran in a non-literal manner. Was it something in one of those European papers?
4. I state that discussions of various interpretations of the Quran are tolerated in Saudi because I have witnessed and participated in many. I have often spoken to Muslims who informed me that discussion was tolerated. Public preaching is only allowed by government approved preachers. The Quran is seen as a living document that speaks to each person, rather than something to be interpreted by a select few.

I said a man was beheaded in Qatif because eyewitnesses told me. I say the townspeople said he was set up by authorities because they told me. I can offer no more proof of this than you can offer proof of recently returning from Europe.

1. If Christian cultures existed prior to WWII which were they?

 

[Salvo]

Pro Iesu:

I don’t see how Islam and Christianity coincide especially in Saudi Arabia and many African countries where Catholicism and other religions are prohibited from going to Mass or worshipping…( this was not from the US media)

Hello Pro Iesu.

Like I said, from travelling and living in various parts of the world, I have definitely seen the drastic change in the US media when reporting on issues lately. I don’t know what “hispanic” papers you are referring to though. Are you talking about Spanish language papers? Here in CA they aren’t very good. I read the Mexican paper El Excelsior from time to time when I can get my hands on it. But mostly I like to read L’osservatore which is put out by the Vatican. They even have a link online to it if you are interested.

I would definitely encourage you to keep your friendships with the Muslims. Even though the Qur’an specifically sttes that Muslims should not take Christians as friends, most Muslims don’t read or understand the Qur’an. It is mostly cultural you will find. So, keep living the faith by example. Remember St Francis who said, “Always preach the gospel. When necessary, use words.”

And thank you so much for the invitation to go into a private room with Ken. But I think I like it just fine out here in the open where everyone can keep track of my whereabouts.

 

[Ken]

**Pro iesu wrote:

I don’t see how Islam and Christianity coincide especially in Saudi Arabia and many African countries where Catholicism and other religions are prohibited from going to Mass or worshipping. A Catholic/christian is not able to wear a crucifix or cross in public or will face time in jail.( my neighbor a presbyterian and his family lived there for about 4-5 years.**

I am unaware of any Saudi Christians, but there are many Christians in Saudi. There are about 6 million foreign workers in the country. Among the foriegners are abot 500,000 Filipinos, most of whom are Christian. There are also about 30,000 Americans and Europeans left. Many of them are Christian.

Low key Christian services regularly take place. There is a tacit understanding between the authorities and the Christians that the Christians will keep a low profile with their devotions, and the authorities will turn a blind eye. The police will raid a few services each year to keep the Muttawa happy, but most take place without incident.

It is true that crosses may not be worn in public, however, that is a function of the employer, nationality, complexion, and hair color of the wearer. A blond American woman can get away with much more than a Filipina. I never heard of anyone going to jail for a cross. The worst is confiscation of the cross. But resistance to the police would result in jail.

 

[mkupka]

Ken:

Does that mean Christianity is or is not a plague due to the actions of Christian cultures in WWII?

WWII was not driven by Christian religious devotion, heretical or otherwise. NAZI’s were condemed by the church, and never claimed scripture as a justification for their global conquests.

Ken:

What is happening in Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, and Maylasia that would make those countries our enemies?

I never said those nations are out enemies. I mentioned each of them, because Militant Muslims have gone on killing sprees there. Remember East Timor? It became and independent nation after international pressure forced the indonesian Government to allow a plebesite. The non-Muslims voted for independence because they were being persecuted.

Ken:

How many years of bloody warfare did Christian Europe have? Does that make it a plague? Have Christians or Muslims killed more of their own kind?

What does that have to do with anything? The fact is that we stopped, and they have not. I don;t know who has killed more of their own, but since you asked the question, please let me know what answers you find.