Islam: Peace or Plague?

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Hi there, I agree with you since I am here in the land of the Muslims, Saudi Arabia. There is no point of reconciliation with them as long as they are reading the Qu’ranic verses that permits them to slay unbelievers including the infidels.

Quite puzzling for me to hear terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, left and right, the news are all about Muslim terrorists and nothing is said from the Imam of Makkah, at least to make the condemnation of such acts as unIslamic.

I cannot accept other comments as if saying that Christians were legally permitted to kill in the name of Christ, I haven’t encountered any Pope making killing in the name Christ an official one but only an official message condemning every killing of human being. If, in our history, killing was done by kingdoms against kingdom, it were mostly political, i guess.

Lasty, I now understand why the Qu’ran is not permitted to be translated to other languages becuase as they believe, Arabic language is a holy language that must be taught to everyone. Quite funny but even educated people here are claiming it as such. Some maybe are too sypathetic with the plight of the Muslims but i hope this is not enough.

I am not articulate in english as you do, since english is your mother tongue but I am trying to say what I know personally, i hope you understand. God bless all.
 
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mkupka:
WWII was not driven by Christian religious devotion, heretical or otherwise. NAZI’s were condemed by the church, and never claimed scripture as a justification for their global conquests.
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Speaking as an atheist, the charge that WWII and Nazism was driven by Christianity is simply ludicrous. Forum rules allowing, I would be sorely tempted to use much stronger language. The track record of the German churches is not pristine, but that’s another topic.

In reply to the opening post, any religion, Islam and Christianity included, can be twisted and bent beyond recognition. I am much more concerned about what is done in the name of a particular religion than the underlying theology.
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Salvo:
Do you let the media or politicians give you a “synopsis” of what to think on the subject?
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Absolutely not, I’ll do my thinking for myself.
 
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Ken:
  1. Most Muslims are not illiterate. You said most Muslims are illiterate and have never read the Quran. Here are literacy rates for countries with large Muslim populations. Indnesia alone has 210 million Muslims.
    Indonesia 88%
    India 60%
    Turkey 86%
    Egypt 57%
    Iran 80%
    Pakistan 45%
    Saudi Arabia 80%
    Iraq 40%
    Sudan 61%
    cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
  2. Each society in which Islam is the dominant religion has characteristics which it attributes to Islam, yet are not found in other Islamic societies. These are cultural characteristics. For example the Saudi treatment of women is a very strong and obvious characteristic of their society. Women have very little freedom of personal choice. They cannot drive, work in occupations where they contact men, and cannot travel without being accompanied by a husband, brother, or son. Saudis attribute this to Islam.
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Ken,

Since you are obviously unable to comprehend basic reading, I will state once again, your questions on Christianity have either been answered or redirected to an appropriate thread. I will address your points 5 and 6 since they actually pertain to the topic at hand.

First, your CIA source is way off and does not match other facts gathered by organisations dedicated to literacy. I will cite the UNESCO website which mentions Sudan at 27.1% (nowhere near the CIA/your claim of 61%), Afghanistan at 29.4%, Pakistan 34.8%, Bengladesh 35.3%, Somalia 24.1%, Yemen 39.1%, Egypt at 48.4% etc. Yes, Saudi and Indonesia do have high literacy rates to their credit. But they do not reflect the majority of Muslim countires, do they? I’m affraid you lose this argument. and you may want to get another source.

Second, “cultural Islam”, like cultural Christianity, Buddhism, etc has no basis to this argument. Yes, of course Indonesia has different cultural customs than Saudi which found their way into the Islamic culture. But you will NEVER find an Islamic Imam in Indonesia condoning ancestor worship. And while the Quran states women are to cover their heads and the Saudis feel the Chador is the best way to do this, the prohibition against women driving has no Quranic basis, and everyone knows this.

You say there is no mainstream Islam, and you are wrong. I’m saying Islam is the same religion from Indonesia to Saudi, based on the Quran, Sunnah, Hadith and subsequently the Shari’a. And as I mentioned, Imams in Islamic countries disagree on interpretation of specific passages in the Qur’an, but never to the extent of whether or not a specific prohibition or command from God is to be taken as literally or figuratively. You say you have seen it, and I’m saying flat out that I don’t trust or believe you. So, unless you have something to add here besides your own illusory annecdotes, I don’t think there’s much more point to this conversation.
 
This would be funny if it wasn’t so serious.

Here we are confronted with a blantantly evil idealogy bent on mass murder and world domination and the West is paralyzed with fear of offending the proponents of that idealogy by political correctness.

Perhaps our civilization deserves to die.
 
Salvo I would appreciate the link to the vatican new source.
And the Hispanic News sources I am referring to are the ones from Mexico.

Catholics all 23 rites have well over a billion memebers and to include the Orthodox would bolster the numbers a percentage point.(thats over half of all christians)
Now Catholicism does speak for all Christianity it has for the past 2000 years on all aspects Morals faith etc. Many protestants including High Anglicans have discourses with the pope before they put something into practice and as of late many High Anglicans have began to return to the flock over the Gay bishop controversy and the ineptitude of the different Anglican/Episcopal counsels which have shown no true unity and thus begun terrible and potentially deadly divisions within that particular denomination. Many will say, but thats what Protestants do, thing is they are the closest Protestant group to Catholicism and it demonstrates the reality of by forsaking the hierarchy, the truth and correct practices chaos can errupt.

Islam is a religion that if backed into a corner or feels the need to lash out it will without a second of thinking what the consequences would be.

And the truth regarding being placed in jail for your beliefs There are laws as stated previously called Blasphemy laws.
 
Pro Iesu:
Salvo I would appreciate the link to the vatican new source.
And the Hispanic News sources I am referring to are the ones from Mexico.

Catholics all 23 rites have well over a billion memebers and to include the Orthodox would bolster the numbers a percentage point.(thats over half of all christians)
Now Catholicism does speak for all Christianity it has for the past 2000 years on all aspects Morals faith etc. Many protestants including High Anglicans have discourses with the pope before they put something into practice and as of late many High Anglicans have began to return to the flock over the Gay bishop controversy and the ineptitude of the different Anglican/Episcopal counsels which have shown no true unity and thus begun terrible and potentially deadly divisions within that particular denomination. Many will say, but thats what Protestants do, thing is they are the closest Protestant group to Catholicism and it demonstrates the reality of by forsaking the hierarchy, the truth and correct practices chaos can errupt.

Islam is a religion that if backed into a corner or feels the need to lash out it will without a second of thinking what the consequences would be.

And the truth regarding being placed in jail for your beliefs There are laws as stated previously called Blasphemy laws.
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There are indeed blasphemy laws in Saudi. And they prohibit the practice of any religion other than Islam. This includes devotions, prayer, services, evangelizing, and display of symbols. However, it would be a mistake to believe that they are enforced as written. They can be enforced as written, and occasionally they are enforced with vengeance. But in day to day life they are not enforced as written.

The one thing the Saudis will not accept, however, is any attempt to convert a Muslim to Christianity. This will bring a quick escort to the airport for deportation.

Bibles are illegal according to the blasphemy laws, but each Christian family is allowed one bible. I have walked through Saudi customs with a bible on several occasons. The inspector calls a supervisor, and I tell them it is for my family. The supervisor then says OK.

I could say much more about Christian services in Saudi. But this is a public board and doing so would violate the informal agreement with the authorities to keep such things low key.

The silliest application of the laws I encountered was when some Westerners ordered a bunch of baseball caps from the US. The customs inspector was a Muttawa (religious police) and he refused entry. Puzzled, a couple of guys went down to the customs shed. The Muttawa said that if one wore a baseball cap and attempted to look up to God in heaven, the bill of the cap would block the view. He then demonstrated this design flaw by donning a cap and looking up. The supervisor backed his decision, and the guys went home. A week later a delivery truck brought the full shipment of caps to the work address of the guy who ordered them.
 
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Salvo:
Ken,

Since you are obviously unable to comprehend basic reading, I will state once again, your questions on Christianity have either been answered or redirected to an appropriate thread. I will address your points 5 and 6 since they actually pertain to the topic at hand.

First, your CIA source is way off and does not match other facts gathered by organisations dedicated to literacy. I will cite the UNESCO website which mentions Sudan at 27.1% (nowhere near the CIA/your claim of 61%), Afghanistan at 29.4%, Pakistan 34.8%, Bengladesh 35.3%, Somalia 24.1%, Yemen 39.1%, Egypt at 48.4% etc. Yes, Saudi and Indonesia do have high literacy rates to their credit. But they do not reflect the majority of Muslim countires, do they? I’m affraid you lose this argument. and you may want to get another source.

Second, “cultural Islam”, like cultural Christianity, Buddhism, etc has no basis to this argument. Yes, of course Indonesia has different cultural customs than Saudi which found their way into the Islamic culture. But you will NEVER find an Islamic Imam in Indonesia condoning ancestor worship. And while the Quran states women are to cover their heads and the Saudis feel the Chador is the best way to do this, the prohibition against women driving has no Quranic basis, and everyone knows this.

You say there is no mainstream Islam, and you are wrong. I’m saying Islam is the same religion from Indonesia to Saudi, based on the Quran, Sunnah, Hadith and subsequently the Shari’a. And as I mentioned, Imams in Islamic countries disagree on interpretation of specific passages in the Qur’an, but never to the extent of whether or not a specific prohibition or command from God is to be taken as literally or figuratively. You say you have seen it, and I’m saying flat out that I don’t trust or believe you. So, unless you have something to add here besides your own illusory annecdotes, I don’t think there’s much more point to this conversation.
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Disappointing.
  1. You stated on this thread that the vast majority of Muslims supported 9/11. You said you learned this from European papers. You said those papers were more accurate than those in the US because the US government controlled the story. You said the difference and greater accuracy of the European papers was obvious. And you said all this on this thread. But now you can’t back up those obvious claims because this is the wrong thread.
  2. You stated on this thread that only 1% of Muslism interpret the Quran in the manner that you described for Catholics. You have not backed that up at all.
  3. You said most Muslims are illiterate, then backed it up with 1993 figures from a list of the world’s lowest literacy rates. Then you say that high litarecy rates in Indonesia, India, Turkey, and Saudi do not reflect the majority of Muslim countries. The majority of countries is not the same as the majority of Muslims. Perhaps you can find some figures more recent than UNESCO’s 1993 figures to back up your claim. Try the CIA Fact Book.
  4. I said the Islam in various countries is a function of individual societies and cultures. You challenged me to show how Islamic beliefs differed between Saudi and Indonesia. I gave examples of practiices found in the two nations’ practice of Islam. Now you tell us that “cultural Islam” has no place in the discussion. Cultural Islam is what the people practice, regardless of what the books say.
  5. You don’t trust or believe me. Oh, dear. And you’re recently returned from Europe, too. And have travelled and lived in various parts of the world. Perhaps you are nuanced, urbane, trendy, and sophisticated. What can we learn from you?
 
Islamic societies are changing. They are reeling under the impact of modernity and are fast having to see if their religious understanding of the world can make any sense; there are severe tensions and conflicts within Islamic societies and these may be expressed in the distinction between High Islam and Low Islam. Modernisation is bringing increasing literacy; peasant societies are undergoing rapid transformation so that the peasant outlook of Low Islam becomes rarer and rarer as the demands of modernity impose themselves. The Fundamentalist response is to go back to the scriptural tradition of High Islam – pure, puritannical and extreme without the accoutrements of a peasant understanding. The traditional peasantry of Low Islam is on the way out as modernisation, industrialisation and capitalism make their inroads to effect irrevocable changes in society. Saints, intercessors, rites and practices of pious and Low Islam are frowned on (when Khomeini came to power he pensioned off these ‘marabouts’ and sheikhs) and in their stead stands the Islamic lawyer/theologian.

The battle is going on in the heart of Islam and it is Islam having to come to terms with modernity. Whether success will be achieved by an espousal and development of High Islam I do not know. Modern societies cannot be built on the illiteracy of Low Islam and Islamic societies are aware of this. The general trend is towards increasing education and a High Islam compatible with this. Modern economies need a literate, well trained workforce – they cannot function without it. This, Islamic societies realise and I think it would be a mistake to pit literacy in the modernised economies of the so-called ‘Western’ world against an alleged lack of such in Islamic societies. Societies are changing. Literacy is not so much en elite affectation as a necessity in the modernising economies of the world, where the idea of an ignorant brute workforce is a myth.

It is argued that Christianity in its various forms long ago succumbed to modernity and the marauding legacy of the Enlightenment whereas Islam - more than aware of these compromises imposed upon Christianity - has shown itself (especially in its recent Fundamentalist response of High Islam, the pure literate and scriptural tradition) markedly resistant. Maybe, Islam today is, paradoxically, not a return to dark ages; it is an attempt to come to terms, get to grips with modernity and not compromise its religious soul in the manner that Christianity seems to have done. It has this battle ‘within’.

DEM
 
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Ken:
  1. You don’t trust or believe me. Oh, dear. And you’re recently returned from Europe, too. And have travelled and lived in various parts of the world. Perhaps you are nuanced, urbane, trendy, and sophisticated. What can we learn from you?
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Hmmm. I guess one of the biggest things I’ve learned is not to carry on with people who only wish to argue and have nothing of substance or intelligence to say.

DEM,

I think we had this conversation already, assuming you are Adam Cro Magnon on Beliefnet. And as I stated there, this whole concept of “high” and “low” Islam doesn’t cut it with me. There is no organised “low” Islamic lobby or power base. Islam is an extremly scriptural religion. At the end of the day, whatever the polemics or specific questions within the religion, it’s either in the writings or it isn’t.

Of course technology is always a stumbling block. Indonesia only sanctioned the use of television in the early 70’s I believe. And of course, the Taliban banned it outright.
 
Hi Ken and Salvo,

I am very much entertained reading your discussions and I like the way Salvo expresses his point, its very intelligent but also Ken has tried and he too has explained his side well.

For your information, I am living here in Saudi Arabia and I would like to share to you what is really happening in their society, based on my own observation.

The rules and regulations here are being governed by their laws and these laws were promulgated by their thinkers, who, i pressumed had much knowledge on the Shaira Law and the Qu’ran. From this premise, please comment on these rules.
  1. Mobile phones with Cameras were strictly prohibited but a lot of them are being sold under the desk. Their reason, these could be used to shot nude pictures and they are considered haram (unlalful).
  2. Picture taking in public is strictly prohibited for reason which still i dont know.
  3. Saudi students should learn Arabic and the Qu’ran and sciences are less important. (I guess mostly, they perceive science as something that is western in concept and when i say western it follows that it is considered a concept that is from the crusaders, enemies of Islam).
  4. They don’t allow women to drive a car.
  5. All family matters should be decided by men only.
And a lot more, which made me confused what’s really “islamic” and what’s not. I have checked every book store just to find a compiled and unified rules and regulations for all muslims, at least for the orthrodox ones but i found none.
 
**Salvo wrote:

Hmmm. I guess one of the biggest things I’ve learned is not to carry on with people who only wish to argue and have nothing of substance or intelligence to say.**

Bit off more than you could chew?
 
LOSAV,

Hello! I already said hello to you on the other “Meet and Greet” thread. One of the reasons I have heard that you will not find this “uniform code of conduct” for all Muslims is that the Saudi regime does not want the people to know how Sharia is used in other Islamic countries. As I said, Saudis have very different rules (like the one you mentioned about women not driving cars) which has nothing to do with Sharia. But they don’t want the people to know this, although to any outsider, especially a Muslim outsider, it is pretty obvious.
 
Ken, Salvo (in alphabetical order),

both of you accused the other of “biting off more than he could chew” and things are getting increasingly personal between the two of you. I know all too well that it is difficult to maintain civility when faced with an entrenched opponent, but please stick to the facts as you see them and let the rest of the audience come to their own conclusions. I value both of your contributions and I’m afraid this thread will be locked if the sniping continues.
 
Wolpert,

Hello! I have already resolved that the conversation had deteriorated to such a level that I will not be responding to his posts heretofore.

Problem solved : )
 
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Salvo:
LOSAV,

Hello! I already said hello to you on the other “Meet and Greet” thread. One of the reasons I have heard that you will not find this “uniform code of conduct” for all Muslims is that the Saudi regime does not want the people to know how Sharia is used in other Islamic countries. As I said, Saudis have very different rules (like the one you mentioned about women not driving cars) which has nothing to do with Sharia. But they don’t want the people to know this, although to any outsider, especially a Muslim outsider, it is pretty obvious.
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The Saudis are quite aware that they have rules that the rest of the Muslim world lacks. Saudis are free to travel, and they take advantage of that. It is very common to see about forty women in full abaya board a plane from Saudi to Cario or Istanbul. When the plane takes off, and the seatbelt sign is turned off, they proceed to the bathrooms and emerge in Western clothes.

On the trip back to the Kingdom, three may board wearing full abaya. When they get off the plane in Saudi about forty will be wearing full abaya.

Prior to the first Gulf War there were only two government run TV stations, and the radio newscasts were also government controlled. The government did not announce that Iraq had invaded Kuwait for two days. This was wildly unpopular with the people. The government then allowed CNN to be broadcast on a trial basis.

When the US military set up shop in the Eastern Province they began broadcasting the US Armed Forces Radio & TV network. Saudis also saw this. Bahrain also began broadcasting CNN which was picked up in the Saudi Eastern Province. The people liked it.

But much more important was the advent of satellite TV. Satellite TV remains officially illegal, but dishes are everywhere. Saudis have had access to a broad range of TV networks that are out of the control of the government since 1992. This includes BBC, CNN, and Star. Arab networks like Al Arabiya and Aljazeera cater to the entire Arab world and are available and very popular.

The Saudis also employ about one million Muslim Arabs from other nations. They are particularly heavily represented as school teachers. These people are an excellent source of information.

And one can add to that about thirty thousand Western employees plus their dependents. The Saudis also learne from them.

American and European news magazines are readily available. So are many English books. The magazines will have any ads for liquor, or pictures considered immodest blacked out. Stories about Saudi, Islam, or Isreal also have a good chance of being blacked out.

So, given the extensive travel of many Saudis, foreign news magazines, the huge expat population, and the availability of between 25 and 50 foreign satellite networks, the Saudis know exactly what rules the rest of the Muslim world follows.
 
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