Islam question on the "black stone"

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OneAugustKnight said:
Do all mosques have altars?
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I have been to the Mohammed Ali Mosque in Egypt and I did not see any altar. I saw only a pulpit and the the Mosque is wide open space with carpeting. No pews or chairs or anything. I was amazed the first time I saw it only because of how our churches are configured.
 
Sister_Amy said:
And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what you think!” He said: “O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha’ Allah (if Allah will), you shall find me of As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).”

Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);

And We called out to him: "O Abraham!

I don’t see any mention of an altar. 🤷 But maybe there was one. Who knows?

Anyway, nothing wrong with altars in general. I’m just saying I never heard about Adam and Eve building one. Their sons offered sacrifices though, for sure, possibly on an altar.

There’s no reason to have an altar in a mosque–it doesn’t play an function in the practice of Islam. I’m not sure exactly what you’re getting at though.
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But, in Islam they do have a day of atonement – called “Eid Al Adha” which they just celebrated. So, if they sacrifice something – where do they sacrifice it? I just wonder – is it at the butcher? Because I know they usually eat Lamb for the celebration but I have not heard anything about the actual sacrificial offering being done by an Imam or something like that. I am being serious about questioning this – I am not trying to be offensive.
 
OneAugustKnight said:
The question is if Muslims assert that the patriarchs in the old testament were Muslim, and they offered sacrifices (possibly on an altar) then why don’t modern Muslims do this?
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Since islam is devoid of Christology there is no concept of a sacrifice pleasing to God, and hence no need for an altar in islam.
 
JHow said:
Uh, are you sure about this hypothesis, Mr. low-post, no profile poster?
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to be honest with you no I’am not sure i just quoted what the ex-muslim says or is he still a muslim.
 
Could any Muslim tell us what used to do the people with this black stone, back to the days of mohammad arround ?
And why did he became so black? (physically)
And what did women do with it? And where were they used ‘to put it’?
😊
 
The Blackstone:

Caliph Umar didn’t like the idea of kissing the black stone:
Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Number 2913:
“Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissed the Stone and said: I am kissing you, whereas I know that you are a stone, but I saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you (that Is why I kiss you)”. (E)

Before Islam people in Arabian peninsula used to worship stones:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661:
“We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When the month of Rajab came, we used (to stop the military actions), calling this month the iron remover, for we used to remove and throw away the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab. Abu Raja’ added: When the Prophet sent with (Allah’s) Message, I was a boy working as a shepherd of my family camels. When we heard the news about the appearance of the Prophet, we ran to the fire, i.e. to Musailima al-Kadhdhab.” (E)

Legends of why the stone turned black:
“In the book of “the legendary in quran” , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }.”

“In the book of” the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat) So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again (See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162." (E)
 
Sam_777 said:
The Blackstone:

Caliph Umar didn’t like the idea of kissing the black stone:
Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Number 2913:
“Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissed the Stone and said: I am kissing you, whereas I know that you are a stone, but I saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you (that Is why I kiss you)”. (E)
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Umar was better than his prophet… In this case at least
Before Islam people in Arabian peninsula used to worship stones:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661:
“We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When the month of Rajab came, we used (to stop the military actions), calling this month the iron remover, for we used to remove and throw away the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab. Abu Raja’ added: When the Prophet sent with (Allah’s) Message, I was a boy working as a shepherd of my family camels. When we heard the news about the appearance of the Prophet, we ran to the fire, i.e. to Musailima al-Kadhdhab.” (E)
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True.
Legends of why the stone turned black:
“In the book of “the legendary in quran” , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }.”
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“In the book of” the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat) So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again (See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162." (E)
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So very true!

Thank you for the informations!
 
Sam_777 said:
Legends of why the stone turned black:
“In the book of “the legendary in quran” , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }.”

“In the book of” the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat) So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again (See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162." (E)
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very good source to use
father zakaria boutros , huh :eek:
 
The stone it self does not represent anything important to the muslims.I think the nonmuslims have made a big deal out of nothing.It is believed that it come from Paradise,but thats not a fundamental dogma of islam,its more of a legend
 
Sam_777 said:
The Blackstone:

Caliph Umar didn’t like the idea of kissing the black stone:
Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Number 2913:
“Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissed the Stone and said: I am kissing you, whereas I know that you are a stone, but I saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you (that Is why I kiss you)”. (E)

Before Islam people in Arabian peninsula used to worship stones:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661:
“We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When the month of Rajab came, we used (to stop the military actions), calling this month the iron remover, for we used to remove and throw away the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab. Abu Raja’ added: When the Prophet sent with (Allah’s) Message, I was a boy working as a shepherd of my family camels. When we heard the news about the appearance of the Prophet, we ran to the fire, i.e. to Musailima al-Kadhdhab.” (E)

Legends of why the stone turned black:
“In the book of “the legendary in quran” , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }.”

“In the book of” the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat) So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again (See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162." (E)
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Thanks Sam, interesting stuff. Reminds me of what St. John of Damascus had to say about it.

St. John of the Damascus was born into a prominent Arab Christian family known as Mansour. He served for a time as a high official of the Umayyad caliphs, before leaving to become a monk.

‘There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. . . [They] accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the Cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed; but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the Cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabar. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.’

St. John of Damascus, Father and Doctor of the Church (c. 676 – 749 A.D.)
 
Shin said:
‘There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. . . [They] accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the Cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed; but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the Cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabar. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.’

St. John of Damascus, Father and Doctor of the Church (c. 676 – 749 A.D.)
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Excellent reference Shin, specially that it’s from an early Islamic era…
 
Shin said:
St. John of the Damascus was born into a prominent Arab Christian family known as Mansour. He served for a time as a high official of the Umayyad caliphs, before leaving to become a monk.

‘There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. . . [They] accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the Cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed; but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the Cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabar. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.’

St. John of Damascus, Father and Doctor of the Church (c. 676 – 749 A.D.)
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This is an important excerpt of an ancient writing of St. John of Damascus. It was about the time after Islam was founded. Mohammad’s followers perhaps not much different from the apostles of Jesus were not educated, but much so for Mohammad’s, since they were from the nomadic tribal Arabs.

For an ex-official of the Caliph and a monk, St. John’s writng had helpfully offers us some insight into the eraly period of Islam and from a Christian who had personal contact with Muslims.

Just a note about the wooded mountain and the name ‘Khabar’ which may sounded like Ka’aba. The name Ka’aba perhaps has developed into its official spelling and pronunciation that we know today, but it make sense to hear from St. John on how it was called during those time.
 
Sam_777 said:
He is from your country and speaks your language, I hope one day you would listen to him in deep heart…
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he isn’t historian . Sam
it’s not valid resources to proof your point

all what this man do is to attack islam and insult it and preach lies about it
he preach anitislamic knowledge even more then preaching his own relegion

you can trust him if you want 🙂

i just clraify the kind of your sources for whoever interested to get real and correct knowledge
 
Thank God for St John of Damascus. He may not be a historian but he sure know how to debate mohamedans. Having a Church father as a first hand witness on the fallacies of islam in general is of great historical importance.👍
 
elwill said:
he isn’t historian . Sam
it’s not valid resources to proof your point

all what this man do is to attack islam and insult it and preach lies about it
he preach anitislamic knowledge even more then preaching his own relegion

you can trust him if you want 🙂

i just clraify the kind of your sources for whoever interested to get real and correct knowledge
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No, elwill, he was not. However, the writings of the Early Church Fathers were well documented even those much earlier that dated back nearly to the time of Jesus. Comparatively this St. John was not that early but if such writings were already well in place, one would have much more confident with the originality of St. John, perhaps even more so than the Quran itself. This is from the Christians pespective of course.

His sainthood is not for his argument against Muslims but rather because he was a well educated and holy Christian. We call him a doctor of the Church for his scholarly contribution to the faith. Some part of his writings is helpful to the subject of this thread simply because it gives us an idea of an encounter of a Christian and Muslims during this era - some forty to fifty years after Islam was founded.

There are not many extra Quranic/Hadith writings still survive today during this era but for St John you can hear what other people other than Muslims wrote about Islam. Another reason was perhaps the nature of the tribal and nomadic Arabs of Mohammad’s time that made documentation much less available.

The excerpt was about a small argument about Islam maybe not much different than what we have at CAF here. It is irrelevant to count it as history other than its value as an ancient writing. When they spoke on the subject it would be referring to things that were actually still hot topic during their time. Today much of the reality has been lost to us that we can only argue from what we read and we may miss the context.
 
Reuben_J said:
No, elwill, he was not. However, the writings of the Early Church Fathers were well documented even those much earlier that dated back nearly to the time of Jesus. Comparatively this St. John was not that early but if such writings were already well in place, one would have much more confident with the originality of St. John, perhaps even more so than the Quran itself. This is from the Christians pespective of course.

His sainthood is not for his argument against Muslims but rather because he was a well educated and holy Christian. We call him a doctor of the Church for his scholarly contribution to the faith. Some part of his writings is helpful to the subject of this thread simply because it gives us an idea of an encounter of a Christian and Muslims during this era - some forty to fifty years after Islam was founded.

There are not many extra Quranic/Hadith writings still survive today during this era but for St John you can hear what other people other than Muslims wrote about Islam. Another reason was perhaps the nature of the tribal and nomadic Arabs of Mohammad’s time that made documentation much less available.

The excerpt was about a small argument about Islam maybe not much different than what we have at CAF here. It is irrelevant to count it as history other than its value as an ancient writing. When they spoke on the subject it would be referring to things that were actually still hot topic during their time. Today much of the reality has been lost to us that we can only argue from what we read and we may miss the context.
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we are talking about tradition of pagans in arabia pre_islam , actually i was talking about Zakariah Boutros not St. John

and i’m not trying to defense it , ctually islam is completly against it
my concern just about distinguish between real knowledge and fake knowledge which serve someone’s agenda
 
Thyme said:
I read from somewhere that it’s the same stone that the same pagans who would have built the Temple of Mecca worshipped.
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The Ka’bah was originally built by Abraham (p) and his son Ishmael (p). The Arabs rebuilt it as necessary, but only using acceptable sources of funding, which resulting in it becoming smaller than its original (built by Abraham (p)) shape. The pagans were rebuilding it during the lifetime of Muhammad (p) and had an argument about who would be the one (i.e., which tribe) to put in this last and final piece–the black stone. Muhammad (p) proposed a solution to the problem, and helped in the reconstruction by placing the last piece.
 
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