Islam, Religion of Peace or......Think about it.

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Prof. William Kilpatraic has an interesting article in New Advent here:
crisismagazine.com/2014/catholicism-islam-and-the-perils-of-arguing-from-authority

It is good to think about these things since Islam has been persecuting Christians throughout the Islamic world and in many other places, especially in Africa. It is true that in a few isolated places honest and thoughtful Muslims come to the defense of Christians, at great risk to themselves. One must thank these brave souls with heartfelt grartitude. But I think that the problem is with Islam itself. In my view, it is not just that the violence and persecution is a wrong headed interpretation of Islam but that it is Islam itself which is wrong headed. In my view it does not advocate worship of the God of Abraham. It worships a " god " concocted by Mohammed and his followers. Of course the run of the mill masses of Islam, ignorant equally of the history of Christianity and of Islam, as they are, may indeed be excused for their ignorance. But this does not change the facts. A religion that thrives and survives on hatred, violence, and persecution cannot legitimately claim that it worships the God of Abraham.

Linus2nd
 
That is a very interesting article. I had wondered myself about the CCC statement but he points out the use of the word profess…

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these **profess **to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

And he points out both the dangers of the idea–lack of investigation-- and the pre-V2 attitude of the Church towards them–very negative.

He didn’t mention “the plan of salvation;” I have never understood that.
 
Islam, in it of itself, is supposed to be, despite being dead wrong, a religion of peace.

Christians by no means have anything to boast, our history is almost, if not fully, far
more tragic and terrifying than Islam’s, even without the bombs, planes, guns, etc.

There are always radicals everywhere you look, maybe Islam keeping people a-
way from God may play a role in certain Muslims’ insane behavior, but let’s not
forget that WE had the torture devices, baths of boiling oil, burning stakes, and
so much more that what happened in Germany during WWII looks like child’s
play, seriously.

I believe that Muslims believe in the same God as Christians, worship is another
matter, as the lack of correct beliefs in the SAME God may disqualify their from
of worship, I don’t know, but SAME God, SAME Jesus even, just wrong informa-
tion. These Muslims need the Gospel, AND WHAT DO WE DO?! “Different God,
Different Jesus, NOT Religion of Peace,” and blahdee blahdee blah . . .

One more time, need to make sure everybody knows, Christian History
is a lot more scary, more violent, so don’t pick on Islam because it has
its crazies TOO! How dare we Christians pretend that Christianity never
has had any of its own problems as well. Blood be upon our hands as
well, God Help Us.
 
Rand Paul said this in a speech last year… google “Rand Paul” and “worldwide war on Christians” and you’ll find it. Anyways:
Rand Paul:
Observing that even a minority of Muslims constituted large numbers, Paul cited a Pew Research poll that indicated that 21 percent of Egyptians, 15 percent of Jordanians, and 13 percent of Pakistani Muslims “find terrorism acceptable if not laudable.” The senator noted that “if you add up the numbers in just three countries, over 40 million Muslims sympathize with violence against Christians.”
Click to expand...
I once tried to explain this in a debate… that a considerable amount of people in Pakistan agree with the terrorists. I explained it as: imagine (x%)… I had data showing around 33% of Pakistanis support Islamic terrorism… but whatever. Imagine 13% of Americans supporting the KKK. That’s how I’ve tried to frame it. 13% of Americans might constitute a majority in some areas… so that means KKK politicians in those areas/ from those areas.
If the government doesn’t accept that, then you’ve got tribal warlords.

The amount of Muslims that support violent terrorism is not insignificant, even if its not a majority in any country. You don’t need 51% of the country to support a violent ideology… all you need to do is scare 51% of the country by your violent ideology and you’ll get into power (I’m thinking specifically of the Muslim Brotherhood and Muhamad Morsi in Egypt).

This has been more of a rant to add some perspective here, rather than a proper post with a clear point.

Millions of Muslims support violent terrorism, that’s the bottom line here. Keep that in mind the next time they’re referred to as “a minority”.
 
I agree, the Founder himself Mohammed was a very violent person and advocated violence, that is how he got started in the first place, giving people a choice believe in what I am telling you or I will kill you. Mohammed was intolerant, so naturally his followers well a lot of them are, in Moslem Countries show the same intolerance, none of the Moslem Countries will let a Christian Church be built, trying getting one built in Saudi Arabia, but they expect to have a Mosque in Rome,(which they do) they never talk about the wishes, or revelations of Allah, all we hear is what Mohammed says about himself, some of the things in the Q’uran
are just frightening, kill all Jews and Christians, show them no mercy, make slaves of there women and rape them as often as you want, plus they contradict things.

Take the world at the moment, most Moslem Countries are at war with themselves, where in the West its almost quiet. Anyone who preaches about God would not wage war on all religions, which they do, its pagan theology, what you would expect pre Roman Empire times.

Mohammed did no Miracles, cured know-one, even the prophets of the Old Testament did miracles to show that God was with them, Mohammed and Joseph Smyth are the same, types self proclaimed, illusions of grandeur, and personally I think these two people suffered from mental problems, as Mohammed always complained that he was being poisoned for two years, that is some slow poison. Plus the two of them had problems with women, they both also allow themselves 3 women for each man, again I think they had major sexual problems, Mohammed and Joseph Smyth have a lot in common.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Islam, in it of itself, is supposed to be, despite being dead wrong, a religion of peace.

Christians by no means have anything to boast, our history is almost, if not fully, far
more tragic and terrifying than Islam’s, even without the bombs, planes, guns, etc.

There are always radicals everywhere you look, maybe Islam keeping people a-
way from God may play a role in certain Muslims’ insane behavior, but let’s not
forget that WE had the torture devices, baths of boiling oil, burning stakes, and
so much more that what happened in Germany during WWII looks like child’s
play, seriously.

I believe that Muslims believe in the same God as Christians, worship is another
matter, as the lack of correct beliefs in the SAME God may disqualify their from
of worship, I don’t know, but SAME God, SAME Jesus even, just wrong informa-
tion. These Muslims need the Gospel, AND WHAT DO WE DO?! “Different God,
Different Jesus, NOT Religion of Peace,” and blahdee blahdee blah . . .

One more time, need to make sure everybody knows, Christian History
is a lot more scary, more violent, so don’t pick on Islam because it has
its crazies TOO! How dare we Christians pretend that Christianity never
has had any of its own problems as well. Blood be upon our hands as
well, God Help Us.
Click to expand...
I always here people talk about ancient Christians and the ruthless killings and slaughters that they committed in the name of … But I’ve never met anyone who has actually researched it before and I’m not so sure that the rumors I’ve heard through word of mouth aren’t actually Protestant propaganda.

Maybe we should just stick with the present, and ponder on why these two religions that are nearly the same age have not progressed equally. IOW, what is it that’s holding the one back, and how can we address it?
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
I agree, the Founder himself Mohammed was a very violent person and advocated violence, that is how he got started in the first place, giving people a choice believe in what I am telling you or I will kill you. Mohammed was intolerant, so naturally his followers well a lot of them are, in Moslem Countries show the same intolerance, none of the Moslem Countries will let a Christian Church be built, trying getting one built in Saudi Arabia, but they expect to have a Mosque in Rome,(which they do) they never talk about the wishes, or revelations of Allah, all we hear is what Mohammed says about himself, some of the things in the Q’uran
are just frightening, kill all Jews and Christians, show them no mercy, make slaves of there women and rape them as often as you want, plus they contradict things.

Take the world at the moment, most Moslem Countries are at war with themselves, where in the West its almost quiet. Anyone who preaches about God would not wage war on all religions, which they do, its pagan theology, what you would expect pre Roman Empire times.

Mohammed did no Miracles, cured know-one, even the prophets of the Old Testament did miracles to show that God was with them, Mohammed and Joseph Smyth are the same, types self proclaimed, illusions of grandeur, and personally I think these two people suffered from mental problems, as Mohammed always complained that he was being poisoned for two years, that is some slow poison. Plus the two of them had problems with women, they both also allow themselves 3 women for each man, again I think they had major sexual problems, Mohammed and Joseph Smyth have a lot in common.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we’d have to just take the world “at the moment” because taking the world at any other moment in time would show a rather violent West. Or are you arguing that both World Wars (just two bloody examples) are a product of Islamic influences on Europe?
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Prof. William Kilpatraic has an interesting article in New Advent here:
crisismagazine.com/2014/catholicism-islam-and-the-perils-of-arguing-from-authority

It is good to think about these things since Islam has been persecuting Christians throughout the Islamic world and in many other places, especially in Africa. It is true that in a few isolated places honest and thoughtful Muslims come to the defense of Christians, at great risk to themselves. One must thank these brave souls with heartfelt grartitude. But I think that the problem is with Islam itself. In my view, it is not just that the violence and persecution is a wrong headed interpretation of Islam but that it is Islam itself which is wrong headed. In my view it does not advocate worship of the God of Abraham. It worships a " god " concocted by Mohammed and his followers. Of course the run of the mill masses of Islam, ignorant equally of the history of Christianity and of Islam, as they are, may indeed be excused for their ignorance. But this does not change the facts. A religion that thrives and survives on hatred, violence, and persecution cannot legitimately claim that it worships the God of Abraham.

Linus2nd
Click to expand...
How exactly is Dr. Kilpatrick a qualified authority on the subjects (Islam, Catholic Theology) he is addressing?
 
TEPO said:
I always here people talk about ancient Christians and the ruthless killings and slaughters that they committed in the name of … But I’ve never met anyone who has actually researched it before and I’m not so sure that the rumors I’ve heard through word of mouth aren’t actually Protestant propaganda.

Maybe we should just stick with the present, and ponder on why these two religions that are nearly the same age have not progressed equally. IOW, what is it that’s holding the one back, and how can we address it?
Click to expand...
Oh Protestants blundered also. Protestants killed Catholics, Catholics killed Protestants,
the Puritans fled from England to America to escape persecution only to become persec-
utors themselves, etc. During my Pagan years I went to research about the witch–hunts,
and found that the numbers, though varying, were rather staggering!

Now Islam and Christianity are SO no equal in age, have no idea where you got that idea. Christianity
is somewhere about 2,000 years old while islam is around 1,400 years old. If we can use what we ex-
pect typically of people in terms of maturity as an analogy, THEN we can say Christianity is “20” and
Islam is “14.” Islam is just in its “Punk Teen Years,” and Christianity is no different, for when it was a-
round Islam’s age, it wasn’t as well behaved as it could have been. Give Islam another 600 years if we
have that long,and I expect the Muslim world to be more like the Christian world (NOT PERFECT, but
better). Now I am not defending Islam on a religious basis, I still say that it is wrong wrong wrong, but
I’d feel like quite a hypocrite if I were to see Islam as a destructive religion,or antithetical as to what it
means to be a “Religion of Peace,” etc.

What can we do about all the madness right now? Let the Military to their job, and
let’s do ours. What is our job? Pray, Spread the Gospel, Affect our Muslim Friends
here, and just pray . . . pray pray pray.
 
It’s less of a religion, and more of a cult. The Qur’an even has verses where Jews are turned into monkeys.

Quran (5:33) - “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

Quran (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Mind, there are some violent texts in the Old Testament, though they tend to say that these are the actions of a few-Some attacks on the wicked, or people being brought into Heaven. In the Quran, it’s actually stated that your enemies should be afraid of you. The religion of ‘peace’ indeed.
Bottom line is that Islam is a threat to the civilized world. The extremists are allowed to run rampant, while the laypersons do nothing to prevent it in their own countries. It’s violent, and disgusting. The Muslims tried to take over Western society once before, and killed pilgrims headed to Jerusalem. That’s historical fact, and it can’t be denied. They’re trying to erode Western society. Saudi Arabia; a kingdom that has police of ‘vice and virtue.’ You can get your head cut off simply for being of another faith. Yet the people who believe in it hardly have any other choice. They aren’t exposed to other ideas, as in the west. They’re brainwashed from birth that they are soldiers, and they need our prayers for their conversion now more than ever before. This barbaric behavior can’t be allowed to continue.
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” -Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos – This line was later quoted by Pope Benedict XVI

The Byzantine empire is no more for a reason. Our Christian brothers and sisters were slaughtered, and a few were given a choice: Convert, or die. Turkey is now predominantly Muslim, and extremism is growing even there. I for one am not going to remain silent while this goes on. We need to speak up, and act before this takes over our society. We’re letting this cult slowly sneak it’s way in, and in Islam? It’s said that lying is acceptable to further it’s cause. No more. Be strong men and women of God, and stand up. Speak out for what is right.
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
Plus the two of them had problems with women, they both also allow themselves 3 women for each man, again I think they had major sexual problems, Mohammed and Joseph Smyth have a lot in common.
Click to expand...
You know it’s a false religion when it’s main attraction is you get to hide the salami in the afterlife! 😃
 
JackieO123 said:
It’s less of a religion, and more of a cult. The Qur’an even has verses where Jews are turned into monkeys…
(JUST SHORTENING REPLY)
Click to expand...
Mormonism is a cult. Islam is a religion. Whether it talks about violent things or
wacky ideas, Islam is a religion. If Pope Francis would say Islam is a cult, then
I might be with you. The Second Vatican Council taught that Muslims worship
the one true God:The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the
one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all–powerful,
the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take
pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just
as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking
itself, submitted to God.
– (Nostra Aetate 3)
 
oldcatholicguy said:
How exactly is Dr. Kilpatrick a qualified authority on the subjects (Islam, Catholic Theology) he is addressing?
Click to expand...
Haven’t the foggiest but New Advent is a respected Catholic site. They are pretty careful who they allow to come in there. I will say that his views support all the reading that I have done.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Haven’t the foggiest but New Advent is a respected Catholic site. They are pretty careful who they allow to come in there. I will say that his views support all the reading that I have done.

Linus2nd
Click to expand...
He’s as qualified to speak on Catholic and Islamic Theology as Dr. Dawkins, you, or I am. In other words, he’s not qualified at all (assuming you are as educated on Catholic and Islamic Theology as I am). Rather odd that a professor who decries arguing from authority in his article seems to base his justification for his comments concerning what the CCC actually means on his non-Theological degrees. Even odder that he cites individuals who just happen to work for the same organization he does (frontpagemag) which just happens to part of the David Horowitiz Freedom Center.

Feel free to read his other article on that site in which he pretty much implies the Holy Father’s comments concerning Islam are either done for strategic reasons (apparently the Holy Father is just a politician) or because he or his staff are incompetent (apparently the prior Holy Father was doing a better job).
 
JackieO123 said:
It’s less of a religion, and more of a cult. The Qur’an even has verses where Jews are turned into monkeys.

Quran (5:33) - “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

Quran (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Mind, there are some violent texts in the Old Testament, though they tend to say that these are the actions of a few-Some attacks on the wicked, or people being brought into Heaven. In the Quran, it’s actually stated that your enemies should be afraid of you. The religion of ‘peace’ indeed.
Bottom line is that Islam is a threat to the civilized world. The extremists are allowed to run rampant, while the laypersons do nothing to prevent it in their own countries. It’s violent, and disgusting. The Muslims tried to take over Western society once before, and killed pilgrims headed to Jerusalem. That’s historical fact, and it can’t be denied. They’re trying to erode Western society. Saudi Arabia; a kingdom that has police of ‘vice and virtue.’ You can get your head cut off simply for being of another faith. Yet the people who believe in it hardly have any other choice. They aren’t exposed to other ideas, as in the west. They’re brainwashed from birth that they are soldiers, and they need our prayers for their conversion now more than ever before. This barbaric behavior can’t be allowed to continue.
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” -Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos – This line was later quoted by Pope Benedict XVI

The Byzantine empire is no more for a reason. Our Christian brothers and sisters were slaughtered, and a few were given a choice: Convert, or die. Turkey is now predominantly Muslim, and extremism is growing even there. I for one am not going to remain silent while this goes on. We need to speak up, and act before this takes over our society. We’re letting this cult slowly sneak it’s way in, and in Islam? It’s said that lying is acceptable to further it’s cause. No more. Be strong men and women of God, and stand up. Speak out for what is right.
Click to expand...
-The ERE is no more because it, like the WRE, destroyed itself from within. Did Islamic expansionism help speed the fall? Yep. But so did the expansionism and apathy of European kingdoms.

-Turkey has always been predominantly Muslim since it didn’t come into existence until the 20th Century when the population was already predominantly Muslim.

-Trained from birth that they are soldiers? ROFLM_O.

-If you are really concerned about threats to the world, you might want to look at the West. Empire building, exploitation of native populations, forced religious and cultural conversions, institutionalized ethnic based slavery, 2 World Wars, the Cold War, etc, etc. Heck, Central and South America and Africa are still trying to clean up the messes with left in their countries.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Mormonism is a cult. Islam is a religion. Whether it talks about violent things or
wacky ideas, Islam is a religion. If Pope Francis would say Islam is a cult, then
I might be with you. The Second Vatican Council taught that Muslims worship
the one true God:The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the
one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all–powerful,
the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take
pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just
as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking
itself, submitted to God.
– (Nostra Aetate 3)
Click to expand...
I’ll grant you, albeit a bit begrudgingly, that Islam is a religion. Though as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t make the violence it and it’s leaders support any less wrong.

@oldcatholicguy: Excuse me; the region now known as Turkey. It used to be predominantly Christian until it was conquered. Mind, the ERE could have possibly become better, though it’s doubtful. The Muslim invaders, similar to the Barbarians in Rome speeded it along. An awful lot, mind. It’s also well known that in many Middle-Eastern countries children are taught this philosophy of being soldiers of God. Though it’s often taken to a serious physical level. The threats of the world can, and do come from the West. Our civilization isn’t perfect, but I’d say it’s far better than the barbarous and superstitious beliefs held in Islam. Western culture does indeed have it’s downsides; the decadence commonly found is an example. Though like I’ve said, it’s a far cry from Islam.
 
JackieO123 said:
I’ll grant you, albeit a bit begrudgingly, that Islam is a religion. Though as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t make the violence it and it’s leaders support any less wrong.

@oldcatholicguy: Excuse me; the region now known as Turkey. It used to be predominantly Christian until it was conquered. Mind, the ERE could have possibly become better, though it’s doubtful. The Muslim invaders, similar to the Barbarians in Rome speeded it along. An awful lot, mind. It’s also well known that in many Middle-Eastern countries children are taught this philosophy of being soldiers of God. Though it’s often taken to a serious physical level. The threats of the world can, and do come from the West. Our civilization isn’t perfect, but I’d say it’s far better than the barbarous and superstitious beliefs held in Islam. Western culture does indeed have it’s downsides; the decadence commonly found is an example. Though like I’ve said, it’s a far cry from Islam.
Click to expand...
Got it. You don’t care for Islam so you do a Jedi hand wave in regards to the barbarous acts done by Western civilization. A Western civilization which is built upon Catholic teachings and therefore has even less excuse for such acts than those done by Islamic cultures (whose barbarous acts pale in comparison to what the West has done). You might want to take that beam out of your eye.
 
I simply cannot accept Islam as a “Religion of Peace” or even a religion for that matter.

I see a political ideology masking itself as a religion with world domination as its goal.
 
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