Islam, Religion of Peace or......Think about it.

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Which behavior?
Attacking towns, consumating marriage with a 9yo, etc.

But you know what? To both you and Edwin, who knows? For every thing that someone backs up with quotes from the Koran and the Sunna, someone else brings out interpretations by Islamic scholars. The fact that the history of Islam backs up the texts of Islam, the fact that the Koran backs up and advocates a much higher degree of deception than we engage in even when we are at war and spying on our enemies means that ultimately we can not know anything at all when it comes to Islam.
 
Attacking towns, consumating marriage with a 9yo, etc.

But you know what? To both you and Edwin, who knows? For every thing that someone backs up with quotes from the Koran and the Sunna, someone else brings out interpretations by Islamic scholars. The fact that the history of Islam backs up the texts of Islam, the fact that the Koran backs up and advocates a much higher degree of deception than we engage in even when we are at war and spying on our enemies means that ultimately we can not know anything at all when it comes to Islam.
“As much as the darkness tries, it can not hide from the light.” -I forget who said that

We can actually know a lot about Islam since we have the “light” (the Church and her teachings) to measure it against. All we really need to do is to use the Church’s teachings as the “answer key” and figure out what Islam gets right and what it gets wrong.

From my limited understanding of Catholic theology regarding warfare and my limited understanding of Islamic theology regarding the same I’d say that it gets a lot of it right in this regard.

*Sorry for the rambling, it’s late and my sleep meds are kicking in, I get a little loopy
 
Attacking towns, consumating marriage with a 9yo, etc.

But you know what? To both you and Edwin, who knows? For every thing that someone backs up with quotes from the Koran and the Sunna, someone else brings out interpretations by Islamic scholars. The fact that the history of Islam backs up the texts of Islam, the fact that the Koran backs up and advocates a much higher degree of deception than we engage in even when we are at war and spying on our enemies means that ultimately we can not know anything at all when it comes to Islam.
Where does the Koran do this, and who are “we”?

Sunnis actually have pretty strict limits on what deception is allowed. Perhaps not as strict as Augustine’s, but Augustine is not the only voice in the Catholic tradition.

When the prolife group Live Action engaged in a sting operation that involved lying to Planned Parenthood employees, weren’t they essentially engaging in “taqiyya”? There was a debate about whether what they did was correct or not, which demonstrated that the Catholic ethical tradition takes the evil of lying seriously but is divided on exactly how to define it and whether deception is always evil.

Perhaps you can provide a detailed comparison showing that the Sunni Islamic tradition is radically more pro-deception than this. But you certainly have not done so up to this point in the discussion.

Edwin
 
“As much as the darkness tries, it can not hide from the light.” -I forget who said that

We can actually know a lot about Islam since we have the “light” (the Church and her teachings) to measure it against. All we really need to do is to use the Church’s teachings as the “answer key” and figure out what Islam gets right and what it gets wrong.

From my limited understanding of Catholic theology regarding warfare and my limited understanding of Islamic theology regarding the same I’d say that it gets a lot of it right in this regard.
If we were clear about what Islam teaches, then we could do as you suggest. The point i was trying to make is that we can’t know what Islam teaches.
*Sorry for the rambling, it’s late and my sleep meds are kicking in, I get a little loopy
I hope you slept well!
 
If we were clear about what Islam teaches, then we could do as you suggest. The point i was trying to make is that we can’t know what Islam teaches.

I hope you slept well!
Figuring out what Islam teaches shouldn’t be any harder than figuring out what Protestantism teaches (should be easier given that Islam has less sects than Protestantism).
 
I think that Edwin and OCguy hold a common trait -Cultural diversity. Where as a lot of Catholics (and Muslims alike) hold more of a melting pot ideology in regards to religion and culture.

…on one side there is a desire to protect the seperation and on the other a desire to melt together as one.

Therefore Edwin and OC-guy are culturally ‘Orthodox’ while St. Francis (the poster) is more ‘Universal’.
 
Figuring out what Islam teaches shouldn’t be any harder than figuring out what Protestantism teaches (should be easier given that Islam has less sects than Protestantism).
What Does the Koran Teach about Violence?

Koran Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Islamists Use Taqiya to Deceive Non-Moslems about Islam


Map of Christian Lands AD 325 (dark blue) and 600 (light blue)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg
Map of Moslem Conquests AD 632 to AD 750
 
Figuring out what Islam teaches shouldn’t be any harder than figuring out what Protestantism teaches (should be easier given that Islam has less sects than Protestantism).
What Does the Koran Teach about Violence?

Koran Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Islamists Use Taqiya to Deceive Non-Moslems about Islam

I couldn’t find a good article refuting the points in this one.

I am not saying that therefore I think all Moslems are bad people or anything, just that it is very difficult to evaluate Islam and whose who follow it closely.
 
Indeed. And pretty much all leading Islamic authorities agree with you.
Edwin, I don’t believe Islamic authorities…

It is well known that this concept of “Islamic Taqiyya” not only permits its believers to lie but actually commands it in some circumstances.

I remember the news videos from countless Muslim countries showing the dancing in the streets right after 9/11. I’m pretty sure those “Islamic authorities” felt the same way in their hearts.
Now let’s talk about a “religion.” What is a “religion”? On what do you base this definition? You speak as if “religion” were some sort of merit badge that you award at your pleasure.

Edwin
No Edwin, I do not consider a religion to be a merit badge.
Since there is only one TRUE Religion, I tend to use that one as the prime example for comparison purposes.

There are other “religions” that promote a way of life similar to the teachings of our Church. There may be doctrinal or theological differences, but in the long run they are doing good.

There are “odd-ball” religions and religious quacks that need scrutiny, but common sense usually prevails in these cases.

Some people consider things like environmentalism or global warming to be religions.

The Church has fought heresies, schisms, and outright false religions throughout her history. Those things exist.

Jesus Christ taught a message of peace and love. Love of neighbor…etc. Not conversion at the point of a sword.
 
Last I checked terrorists were responsible for terrorist attacks, not Islam. Do you seriously wish to get into a discussion in which a religion is blamed for the actions of it’s followers or those who claim to follow it? I personally think such discussions are rather silly since they assume a religion is somehow responsible for the actions of all its members (real members and members in name only), but I’m more than willing to engage in such a discussion if it shows you how uninformed your current position is.
I get a strong feeling, that if we do continue this discussion, you will attempt to justify these terrorist attacks…(?)
 
Attacking towns, consumating marriage with a 9yo, etc.
There is no good evidence that Aisha was actually 9 when her marriage was consummated - probably closer to 19. She had every reason to lie about her age (which some people still do - imagine that!) She wanted primacy among the wives of Muhammad, so appearing to be as young as possible facilitated that task. But it is not chronologically possible that she was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated, given the known historical information about her life:

huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html

As a comparison, Mary was probably around 14 or 15 when she gave birth to Jesus. That’s the age that people got married and started families in the ancient world.
 
What Does the Koran Teach about Violence?

Koran Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Islamists Use Taqiya to Deceive Non-Moslems about Islam

I couldn’t find a good article refuting the points in this one.

I am not saying that therefore I think all Moslems are bad people or anything, just that it is very difficult to evaluate Islam and whose who follow it closely.
-I don’t think you think all Muslims are bad people and it’s not my intent to imply that
-The “Taqiya” can be overcome in analyzing Islam by using works that were not designed or intended for a non-Muslim audience. While it would be rather easy for an organization to engage in short term deception (a little more difficult but possible for long term deception), such deception wouldn’t be possible on a long term grand scale. Especially given the decentralized and divided nature of Islam (Sunni and Shia Islam have been at each other since pretty much the day Muhammad died).
-I really wouldn’t use those sites as reliable sources of information (as much as I like Nat. Geo. I don’t think it’s a good source of info on religions).
 
Can you cite me some that would quote the New Testament while committing these crimes?

Thanks!
 
-The ERE is no more because it, like the WRE, destroyed itself from within. Did Islamic expansionism help speed the fall? Yep. But so did the expansionism and apathy of European kingdoms.

-Turkey has always been predominantly Muslim since it didn’t come into existence until the 20th Century when the population was already predominantly Muslim.

-Trained from birth that they are soldiers? ROFLM_O.

-If you are really concerned about threats to the world, you might want to look at the West. Empire building, exploitation of native populations, forced religious and cultural conversions, institutionalized ethnic based slavery, 2 World Wars, the Cold War, etc, etc. Heck, Central and South America and Africa are still trying to clean up the messes with left in their countries.
But these wars/beliefs/practices were not inspired by Catholicism, i.e., her teachings?
 
I get a strong feeling, that if we do continue this discussion, you will attempt to justify these terrorist attacks…(?)
Can’t refute my points so you attack my character. Is the next step name calling?
 
What Does the Koran Teach about Violence?

Koran Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Islamists Use Taqiya to Deceive Non-Moslems about Islam

I couldn’t find a good article refuting the points in this one.

I am not saying that therefore I think all Moslems are bad people or anything, just that it is very difficult to evaluate Islam and whose who follow it closely.
Have you actually read any books by mainstream scholars of Islam like John Esposito or F. E. Peters? (To be fair, Bernard Lewis and Samuel Huntington would be equally renowned scholars who take a more negative view. But they tend to focus on different things.) Or Marshall Hodgson’s old but still respected The Venture of Islam, or the Oxford Illustrated History of Islam (many but not all of whose authors are Muslims), or Fundamentalism and the Betrayal of Tradition (a book with many authors, all of whom I believe are Muslims). I am not claiming that everything said by these authors is correct or that they (the non-Muslims as well as the Muslims) don’t have their own biases. But there’s a pretty large body of scholarship on Islam out there, both by Muslims and non-Muslims, which addresses many of these issues in more depth than brief online articles can do. Note that these articles tend to prooftext without consideration of context. A particularly erroneous claim in the first article is that the Qur’anic passages speaking of violence are not “time-limited.” In fact everything in the Qur’an is believed by Muslims to have been revealed at a particular point in the early years of Islam and for a particular purpose, and that’s central to traditional Islamic scholarship. (This is also why “pro-Islamic” scholars are wrong to cite the passage from Sura 2 about only fighting in self-defense as if it settled the matter. It was revealed at a particular point and was “abrogated” by a later command enjoining offensive warfare. By the general principle of “abrogation” the later passages are seen as more authoritative, since nothing abrogated them, but it’s not quite that simple and there are quite a few Muslims who argue that the passage from Surah 2 is of more general application. Also, the later “verses of the sword” are pretty vague–many anti-Muslims argue that this means that Muslims are enjoined just to run around killing non-Muslims indiscriminately, but that is not the position of Islamic law at all.)

On taqqiya, I think it’s important to bear in mind that the Catholic tradition also has a number of casuists who allow either lying or other forms of misrepresentation. It was for some time a favorite Protestant parlor game to assemble quotes from such casuists to “prove” that Catholics believed that “no faith was to be kept with heretics” and hence that no Protestant could ever believe anything that any Catholic said. This was, in fact, the immediate occasion of Blessed John Henry Newman’s Apologia pro Vita Sua. He had been accused by Charles Kingsley of advocating “taqqiya” (obviously not by that name:p).
Indeed, nearly the entire body of accusations against Islam made by Christians today can be paralleled by things Protestants used to say (and some still do) about Catholics. It is of course possible that Protestants were wrong about Catholics but that Muslims really are as bad as Protestants used to think Catholics were. But I can’t help but be suspicious, especially when I catch the polemicists actually misrepresenting Muslims, and when the vast majority of credentialed, non-Muslim scholars of Islam disagree with or at least heavily qualify the polemical claims.

The bottom line is that religions are complicated things, and Islam is a lot more complicated than Westerners want to admit. I take the point made by the ex-Muslim poster Khalid some time ago that the range of diversity among Muslims is considerably narrower than among Christians, but with all due respect to his learning and personal experience I think he understated the diversity (he dismissed Sufis, for instance, as marginal at best, when historically that was not the case–see the aforementioned Fundamentalism: The Betrayal of Tradition for the Sufi side of the case).

Edwin
 
But these wars/beliefs/practices were not inspired by Catholicism, i.e., her teachings?
At the very least, some of it was justified by appeal to Catholic teaching–for instance, the conquistadors pretty consistently claimed to be spreading the Catholic Faith. While many of the actual missionaries opposed the worst abuses, the record is very mixed and even those who clearly cared for the native people’s souls often treated their bodies with scant respect (Junipero Serra used coercive means to force native people in California to live in settlements where many of them died–he clearly did this because he wanted to save them and teach them what in his view was a better way to live even in this world, but that he did it seems pretty hard to dispute; similarly, St. Francis Xavier was happy to use the Portuguese military to advance the faith).

It’s easy for Christians, looking back, to say “well, we don’t agree with the interpretation of Christianity that justified these actions, so it’s no concern of ours,” while calling Muslims who do exactly the same thing hypocrites or accusing them of taqiyya or whatever. But that’s blatantly unfair.

Edwin
 
But these wars/beliefs/practices were not inspired by Catholicism, i.e., her teachings?
And? It’s not like this thread (or other similar threads) seems to be concerned with that criteria when talking about Islam. The standard seems to be-
-“Islam caused X”- accepted no questions asked
-“Islam didn’t cause X”- accusations of being a support of Islam, a moral rationalist, questions raised as to your support of terrorists, questions and/or comments concerning how seriously you take your own faith, accusations of massive conspiracy theory type cover ups, etc.

Since I don’t wish to be a person who uses a double standard; and since I’m rather tired of having accusations thrown at me I figured the easiest approach would be to use the standard everyone seems to be happy with. Not my fault that the accepted standard results in a rather bad and inaccurate portrait of Catholicism.
 
At the very least, some of it was justified by appeal to Catholic teaching–for instance, the conquistadors pretty consistently claimed to be spreading the Catholic Faith. While many of the actual missionaries opposed the worst abuses, the record is very mixed and even those who clearly cared for the native people’s souls often treated their bodies with scant respect (Junipero Serra used coercive means to force native people in California to live in settlements where many of them died–he clearly did this because he wanted to save them and teach them what in his view was a better way to live even in this world, but that he did it seems pretty hard to dispute; similarly, St. Francis Xavier was happy to use the Portuguese military to advance the faith).

It’s easy for Christians, looking back, to say “well, we don’t agree with the interpretation of Christianity that justified these actions, so it’s no concern of ours,” while calling Muslims who do exactly the same thing hypocrites or accusing them of taqiyya or whatever. But that’s blatantly unfair.

Edwin
Again, this is not Catholic practice/teaching, i.e., we know that we cannot use force or violence in order to spread the truth, i.e., that there were people who did, does not contradict the truth.
 
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