Islam: Sex slave?

[Contrabass101]

Also, reading through some of the critique of OT-morals, I notice people keep quoting from Deutoronomy.

A good place to start to understand such quotes, would be asking, what Deutoronomy means, and why it has gotten that name in the first place.

Deutero-nomy means “Second Law”. Moses got three Laws at Sinai, one was a moral law, God’s will for his people - roughly the ten commandments, another was the ceremonial laws (levite-icus), and then there was the Deuteronomy.

Deutoronomy is second not only in being revealed later, but in importance. Obviously, God’s people needed to know what God’s will for their lives were, and they got that - the ten commandments in Exodus 20, which are God’s revealed will for all times. Then after falling into idolatry, God instituted (as chasticement) the Levitical law - primarily to force the Israelites to slaughter the animals they had been worshipping. This law was never intended to last forever.

Thirdly, there was a need for a civil law. It is impossible and indesirable to create a society whose civil laws equal the moral law completely - it would be Big Brother (I’m talking about the book “1984” not the tv-show ). You can’t convict a man for having “coveted his neighbourg’s donkey”, or any such “thought-crime”, yet any serious moral system must forbid not only covetous thoughts but also hateful, lustful and selfish thoughts. The civil law must have lower standards for the people as a whole, than the moral law has for the individual, further it may have a say in matters on which the moral law is silent (i.e. speed limits, taxes, legal processes…). Thus divorce would be allowed, but not moral by any means - it is forbidden by the 6th commandment. And eating shrimps would be violating the civil law (which was intended to seperate Israel from it’s neighbourgs culturally) but wouldn’t go against any moral absolute.

Something can be lawful without being morally right, and something can be forbidden without being morally wrong (of course breaking the law is under normal circumstances itself a moral wrong, but not always).

This is the “Second Law” of Deuteronomy, given to one specific people at one specific point of time, and never intended to be neither universal nor eternal.

As a rule of thumb, the stuff in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is of little or no importance in the question of Christian ethics.

• CB

PS: By the way: It doesn’t have to be in the Bible (e.g. monogamy) to be Catholic morals, that’s what the Tradition, Magisterium and the Holy Father are there for… we’re not fundies or sola-scripturists, but look to the Church Christ founded as the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Raul_Black]

Paul is talking abut a father and his daughter…

As per Paul & you, a Catholic father can marry his own daughter, then?

 

[inJESUS]

You raised very good points, but Muslims simply do not understand what the Law means or to whom and why it was given and to whom it applies and Planten is the best example when he comes telling us we do not observe the law.

 

[inJESUS]

because wars teachings of Islam are not descriptive but prescriptive…as long as war is a teaching of Islam, sex slaves will be in the sharia…and they will always be.

 

[Raul_Black]

Please read and reread 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verses 19 to 40- end of this chapter)

For your easiness here they are:
19
Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God’s commandments.
20
Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called.
21
Were you a slave when you were called? Do not be concerned but, even if you can gain your freedom, make the most of it.
22
For **the slave **called in the Lord is a freed person in the Lord, just as the free person who has been called is a slave of Christ.
23
You have been purchased at a price. Do not become slaves to human beings.
24
Brothers, everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called.
25
Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord, 11 but I give **my opinion **as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
26
So **this is what I think best **because of the present distress: that it is a good thing for a person to remain as he is.
27
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.
28
If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.
29
12 I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them,
30
those weeping as not weeping, those rejoicing as not rejoicing, those buying as not owning,
31
those using the world as not using it fully. For the world in its present form is passing away.
32
I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
36
13 14 If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.
37
The one who stands firm in his resolve, however, who is not under compulsion but has power over his own will, and has made up his mind to keep his virgin, will be doing well.
38
So then, **the one who marries his virgin **does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.
39
15 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes, provided that it be in the Lord.
40
She is more blessed, though, in my opinion, if she remains as she is, and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

 

[inJESUS]

Raul, you have the same attitude of someone who had been banned many times on this forum. Open a thread about Paul and kindly stop hijacking this thread.

 

[Raul_Black]

I was actually replying to your qoute from 1 Corinthians 7 (NT) ,which made me re-read the whole chapter again.

And look, there, there is a description about slave girl (virgin) too. And Paul had no problem with it. He was okay if someone has a slave ( virgin ) with or without marrying her. Moreover he prefers if someone keeps her without marrying her at all. And if someone wants to do with her, as he wishes, something out of a critical moment, this also acceptable and it is not a sin.

Now please read again the following (by Paul):

13 14 If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.
37
The one who stands firm in his resolve, however, who is not under compulsion but has power over his own will, and has made up his mind to keep his virgin, will be doing well.
38
So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.
39
15 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives.** But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes**, provided that it be in the Lord.

So what you Catholics are talking about Islam and slaves, is meanigless when your own Paul has no problem with it.

What is your actual question in this thread here? Are you actually criticizing your own Catholic understanding?

One more thing, as per Catholic understanding, if marraige ( between a man and a woman, ofcourse not between gays or lesbians) is to become one flesh, then is this becoming ONE FLESH just limited to "as long as that wife or husband is alive’ and after their death no more? Because, as Paul says:

15 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives.** But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes**, provided that it be in the Lord.

 

[Contrabass101]

You raised very good points, but Muslims simply do not understand what the Law means or to whom and why it was given and to whom it applies and Planten is the best example when he comes telling us we do not observe the law.

I was wondering… do Moslems have a similar distinction between Law and law? If not, I can much better understand the problem; then you would end up in either Sharia-law or lowering your moral standards - or both.

And in case someone wondered whether this distinction is a new thing that I or some scholar just made up, I would like to point out that Thomas Aquinas also used this same reasoning to conclude that prostitution, though immoral, should not neccesarily be a civil offence. We cannot punish every sin, or we should all be sitting in jail most of our lives.

We can of course disagree on whether prostitution is to be illegal or legal, but the argument remains that immorality and crime is not at all the same thing.

I wonder if Islam has ever produced such sound (not to mention realistic and practical) moral theology, or they are stuck with having to choose one of two equally terrible evils: lower the moral law or punishing thought-crime.

• CB

 

[inJESUS]

Indeed Basma ended up being disgusted and sarcastic of both for obvious reasons and her final remark on the show showed it . She even criticized the sheikh withdrawal from the scene for a certain time and who came back again later and told her " if i knew you’d ask questions in this way i wouldn’t have showed up in your episode since i decided some monthes ago not to answer these questions!"

…Actually she asks a question and the sheikh evades it by playing reverse psychology by telling her " are you saying Islam is so and so?" and she would ask the question again and he’d get evasive again…the other one kept reciting the verses thinking that recitation will enchant her and make her stop…the whole episode was scandalous and showed the weakness and pervasivenes of both scholars . The sheikh even responded at times : “you don’t have to undetstand!!” and the other guy said once " it is in the Quran! what can i do??what can i do about it??? do i erase it??"…

Basma ended the episode 3 by saying sarcastically and intelligently: i will conclude by saying do not ask questions that need elaboration because we are not ready…i will reverse my introduction of the show : i thought we can ask questions but fact is do not ask questions because asking will give no fruit and if we confront our scholars nobody will be happy.

 

[Raul_Black]

Christianity does not extend the notion of marriage and sex to hereafter and heaven.

It is too bad/sad to hear that your “Christianity does not extend the notion of marriage and sex to hereafter and heaven”. I was at the impression that the Christian notion of husband and wife “becoming ONE FLESH” after marriage, is Eternal/Spiritual too and not just temporarily/earthly.

In other words marriage in Christianity is just a matter of having sex with his wife and thats all. It implies that a Christian woman is born to fulfill man’s sexual desire. She is subordinate and like a slave to his master (husband) anyway, as per NT.

So the concept/notion of becoming “ONE FLESH” is too short and seems meaningless. (Keep in mind the span of our earlthy life as opposed to the life after death.)

 

[Raul_Black]

The Koran says Muslim men going to heaven will have sex as a reward and for the sole purpose of having sexual pleasure, not for procreation.

Where in the Koran it says? Please qoute the Koran.

Islam supposes that sex in Heaven will never result in pregnancy, which means that the women in Heaven will be created solely for the purpose of making Muslim men happy.

Please qoute either the Koran or any authentic source of Islam to backup your claim.

 

[Angelos]

Where in the Koran it says? Please qoute the Koran.

Where does the Koran say that men having sex in Heaven will become fathers? Please cite the verse in the Islamic scripture that associates sex in Heaven with procreation?

Please qoute either the Koran or any authentic source of Islam to backup your claim.

**Surah Rahman **

56 Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
2. (In beauty) like the jacynth and the coral-stone.
3. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
4. Is the reward of goodness aught save goodness ?
5. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
6. And beside them are two other gardens,
7. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
8. Dark green with foliage.
9. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
10. Wherein are two abundant springs.
11. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
12. Wherein is fruit, the date-palm and pomegranate.
13. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
14. Wherein (are found) the good and beautiful -
15. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -
16. Fair ones, close-guarded in pavilions -
17. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -
18. Whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them -
19. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
20. Reclining on green cushions and fair carpets.

Beautiful virgins created only for Muslim men in Heaven. I cannot see any reference to pregnancy or a divine commandment for procreation though. Might Mohammad’s scribes have forgotten to state that?

 

[tommiatkins]

other forms of atheism.

There are no “forms” of atheism. Your lack of knowlage is to be expected and excused, but must be corrected.

 

[tommiatkins]

Wouldn’t most Baseball or Football teams fall under your extremely broad definition of religion? Not to mention political parties?

And wouldn’t many Eastern religions fail on several of these points? For instance lacking hymns, dogma, deity and creeds?

To the first, yes indeed. And a reason why football gets so many people worked up. To the point of violence and murder in footballs name.

To the second, Hymns they have many songs and poems to their spiritual heros. Dogma, all you need to see is a bhuddist waving incence balls and ringing the prayer bell to know its as steeped in dogma as catholicism, the deity being Lord Budda, whos hands are 5000 miles across and creeds, well creeds are possibly second only to christianity in number?

I’m not complaining, lots of people call Buddism a way of life, but looking at it from my angle and indeed theirs, its a religion.

 

[Raul_Black]

Where does the Koran say that men having sex in Heaven will become fathers? Please cite the verse in the Islamic scripture that associates sex in Heaven with procreation?

**Surah Rahman **

56 Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
2. (In beauty) like the jacynth and the coral-stone.
3. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
4. Is the reward of goodness aught save goodness ?
5. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
6. And beside them are two other gardens,
7. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
8. Dark green with foliage.
9. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
10. Wherein are two abundant springs.
11. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
12. Wherein is fruit, the date-palm and pomegranate.
13. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
14. Wherein (are found) the good and beautiful -
15. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -
16. Fair ones, close-guarded in pavilions -
17. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -
18. Whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them -
19. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?
20. Reclining on green cushions and fair carpets.

But where is mentionig of sex in heaven, in the Koran?

 

[planten]

Where does the Koran say that men having sex in Heaven will become fathers? Please cite the verse in the Islamic scripture that associates sex in Heaven with procreation?

Angelos. Thanks for posting the verses. I need to correct the translation a little bit. Please note the new wording…below…

**Surah Rahman **

56 Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither humans nor jinni will have touched before them.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. (In beauty) like the jacynth and the coral-stone.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Is the reward of goodness aught save goodness ?

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. And beside them are two other gardens,

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Dark green with foliage.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Wherein are two abundant springs.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Wherein is fruit, the date-palm and pomegranate.

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Wherein (are found) the good and beautiful -

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -

1. Fair ones, close-guarded in pavilions -

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ? -

1. Whom neither mankind (humans) nor jinni will have touched before them -

1. Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny ?

1. Reclining on green cushions and fair carpets.

Beautiful virgins created only for Muslims men and women in Heaven. I cannot see any reference to pregnancy or a divine commandment for procreation though. Might Mohammad’s scribes have forgotten to state that?

I have just altered a few words only so that you please look at them and then proceed further. Ins is not the word for man in Arabic. Ins means mankind.

 

[Angelos]

But where is mentionig of sex in heaven, in the Koran?

It is weird that you are impatient and eager to interpret the Greek word for virgin as sex slave whereas you are slow to understand that the scribes of the Koran deliberately emphasise the notion of virginity with regard to the beautiful women in Heaven.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, please leave Islam alone while you are responding to the subject matter with Raul. In Islam, there is no sex matter in the next world. There will be no maternity homes in paradise. That will all be a spiritual matter and spiritual happiness.

You are not in the position to command me. Since I am no one’s slave, I am free to decide what to do with Islam.

Sorry, but your aims to convey a spiritual sense to virgins in Islamic Heaven will not provide a solution. I do not suppose that the Koran accentuates the physical beauties and virginities of those women with no good reason.

Try to discuss why Paul never married. I feel that Jesus should also have married before the age of 30. Please discuss the writings of Paul regarding sex with virgin slave girls. That is a more interesting subject at hand. Thanks.

You are slandering both Jesus and Paul. No one can be compelled to get married. However, your religion does not allow men and women to decide freely about sex and marriage. Your faith is full of compulsion.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos. Thanks for posting the verses. I need to correct the translation a little bit. Please note the new wording…below…

Beautiful virgins created only for Muslims men and women in Heaven.

Do you really believe that lesbians will have sex in Heaven? What does a heterosexual woman have to do with a beautiful virgin?

I have just altered a few words only so that you please look at them and then proceed further. Ins is not the word for man in Arabic. Ins means mankind.

Adam also means man and represents the whole mankind although it is male. Your scripture calls Adam NEFS (human soul or personality), but defines Eve as that soul’s wife! Thus, even general terms pertaining to the whole mankind are (male) gendered in the Koran.

 

[inJESUS]

Clearly Christianity did nothing to abolish slavery.