Islam: Sex slave?

[Isa_Almisry]

**
Please learn a little more from your old winesack (OT). What did David do to the man whom he got killed in battle and took his wife. Soloman was born out of their sex affair.

What did Soloman do with 300 wives and 1000 concubines? Also please do not forget that David needed a young hot beautiful girl to heat him up in the very old age. It was provided to him But it did not work. Do you read those passages of the bible?**

Don’t you even know that we openly admit that the Old Law was imperfect and a shadow of things to come? That’s why Christ came to fulfil with the New Covenant.

You have nothing to say about marriage and divorce because you do not follow any law. You have no law. Why do you allow even one wife. You should not marry at all in line with the way of Jesus. Then you have the unmarried fathers in the church?

I’ve seen Muslims do the same. Only difference, (if you count concubines, slaves and marriage with no fault divorce marriages) is that they did it fully within Islamic law. Your “Christians” aren’t following the Church on this.

Yes, I know. You don’t know the difference.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

I’ve seen Muslims do the same. Only difference, (if you count concubines, slaves and marriage with no fault divorce marriages) is that they did it fully within Islamic law. Your “Christians” aren’t following the Church on this.

Yes, I know. You don’t know the difference.

Planten, what Isa is trying to say can be illustrated in a hypothetical situation.

We’ll take a man, and we won’t say whether he’s Muslim or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Hindu or whatever. He takes to himself a number of wives, “right hand possessions”, concubines, etc. and treats the women as property. Islam says it’s okay, Christianity says it’s wrong.

I’m not absolutely sure that all that’s been said about Islam is true, but I have yet to see any real explanation/argument on the part of Muslims. It would be good to have some explanation from Muslims directly and fairly answering the questions.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa, please do. I’m very interested in hearing all points on this issue, those of Muslims included. Good honest forensics and love of truth is, after all, what Love and Catholicism bring us to.

Well, for one:

A man can divorce his wife for any reason. After three times, he has to not remarry her. As it is, many men use it as a threat, to bully her into submission. Once the third divorce goes through, then, to remarry her she has to marry another man, engage in intercourse, and then be divorced again. There used to be (and as far as I know could still be) men who hire their services out for this (I forget the term for such men, but I do remember the term exists). Most of them are ugly or otherwise undesirable, so as to even make the threat (remember, she has to have sex with him, no marriage for papers) even more frightening.

But really, just take my word on it. You don’t want to pursue Truth in this, it’s not pretty.

 

[planten]

Maybe you’re thinking of mut`a? That’s an accepted and legal practice of a Muslim man taking a temporary wife (who can be a Moslem, Christian or a Jew). They engage in a “marriage contract” for a specified period of time, like a night, a day, a month or whatever; and it also stipulates how much the woman is to be paid for performing her wifely duties.

As tempted as I am to add some editorial comment, I don’t think it’s necessary……

**O.K. Please add to the above that only Shias (13%) muslims believe like that. The others do not and the others are fighting against the Shias on this subject because it is their wrong interpretation of Islam. More over if any one said (asked) if their daughters had comitted Muta’h, the Shias become angry.

So this story has collapsed as a false one. Welcome with something which should be definite. You had lacked the real knowledge about the Muslims. So it is better that you do not indulge inthis business. Even if you had the knowledge but you failed to tell the whole (correct) story. So you are no good in describing the Muslims. Thanks…**

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**O.K. Please add to the above that only Shias (13%) muslims believe like that. The others do not and the others are fighting against the Shias on this subject because it is their wrong interpretation of Islam. More over if any one said (asked) if their daughters had comitted Muta’h, the Shias become angry.

So this story has collapsed as a false one. Welcome with something which should be definite. You had lacked the real knowledge about the Muslims. So it is better that you do not indulge inthis business. Even if you had the knowledge but you failed to tell the whole (correct) story. So you are no good in describing the Muslims. Thanks…**

Only problem: even the sunnis admit your prophet allowed Muta and Umar forbade it. And the Malikis allow it I believe, and you have Misyar, which is not, at least from our view point, much different from mut’a. Nor is it in practice.

Btw, muta has already entered the US courts and so already become a part of American jurisprudence.

 

[planten]

exoflare:
logicalfallacies.info/tuquoque.html

When you find the Catholic teaching that states “David never sinned” then get back to us, as only then would you actually have a valid point.

---

**You are trying to disown the forefathers of Jesus? You cannot do that. As long as their story is written in the bible (combined) you cannot throw them away. I cannot believe you. If Bible NT absolved them of bad deeds or it said that David was not a prophet of God then I will believe it. Not because of a word from your mouth.

Nothing of that is written in the Quran. Nothing bad about David or Soloman. It is all in your old winesack which you are carrying with you. Please explain the points that I had raised because your friends on this forum were blaming Islam and the prophet Muhammad for polygamy as a bad thing. Please come to the track.**

Is Solomon our role model or something? Again, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

My reply is same as above. When you can talk about Muhammad, why I cannot talk about Soloman ! He had 300 wives and 1000 concubines. Please explain why? You cannot condemn him if Jesus did not do it.

logicalfallacies.info/redherring.html

That goes for everything you wrote after that, too, actually…

**I hope you read all about your own people first and then your friends should comment about Muslims. I only brought you people the full picture of polygamy in action. **

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You are trying to disown the forefathers of Jesus? You cannot do that. As long as their story is written in the bible (combined) you cannot throw them away. I cannot believe you. If Bible NT absolved them of bad deeds or it said that David was not a prophet of God then I will believe it. Not because of a word from your mouth.

Disown it? The NT admits it. Matthew 1:6. The Truth shall set you free. In fact, David’s Psalm of Repentence Ps. 50, is the classic psalm of repentence, used often in the Church. We have the story. It’s there to tell us DON’T DO THAT. So is David’s repentence to tell us DO THAT.

Nothing of that is written in the Quran.

Which track you want?

My reply is same as above. When you can talk about Muhammad, why I cannot talk about Soloman ! He had 300 wives and 1000 concubines. Please explain why? You cannot condemn him if Jesus did not do it.

Because we say Solomon should be condemned for it (the Bible tells how he fell into idolatry over his wives), whereas you say Muhammad should be praised for marrying beyond the limits he set, forbidding his wives to remarry, marrying his son’s wife, and marrying a child bride.

I know, details, details…

**I hope you read all about your own people first and then your friends should comment about Muslims. I only brought you people the full picture of polygamy in action. **

The Bible has the full picture. Look at any instance of polygamy in the Bible. Always, without exception it’s a disaster and a bad thing. That’s a warning.

 

[planten]

Don’t you even know that we openly admit that the Old Law was imperfect and a shadow of things to come? That’s why Christ came to fulfil with the New Covenant.

St. Peter was married. Christ called him and sent him as an Apostle. And healed his mother in law. Christ performed His first miracle at a wedding feast, that New Wine you keep on ignoring.

The limit on everyone but their prophet you mean.

So, what’s your excuse in the present day?

This, like everything else in Isaiah has nothing to do with your prophet. 7, that’s not 4. So you are leaving 3 women out high and dry. Or do they go the prophet, as he has no limit?

Btw, its about the coming exile, which came and went LOOOOONG before Christ, let along your prophet.

and for your prophet there still wasn’t. Practice what you preach, or don’t do as I do, do as I say.

In the Muslim world it is still going on.

They only waited until modern times?

Once of the more depressing aspects of studying Islamic history is the number of biographies that tell the huge porportion of children being born not of wives but slaves. Including in the prophets household.

they do both.

they do both.

I have. I’ve seen fatwas explaining, based on your prophets conduct with Maryam, that equality only means having sex in turn with each wife.

You can have 4 wives. As many concubines as you want. You can have in much of the Muslim world a temporary marriage. And yet, based on excutions etc. for it, persons STILL manage to commit adultery in the Muslim world.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn pointed out (with much, much more authority) the faults of modern society. He also pointed out how the Church has set the bar so high, as to lift man up, and prevent him from sinking onto all fours. As the adultery example (how do you manage to commit adultery when the bar is rolling on the floor?), lowering standards only leads to sinking on all fours.

I’ve seen Muslims do the same. Only difference, (if you count concubines, slaves and marriage with no fault divorce marriages) is that they did it fully within Islamic law. Your “Christians” aren’t following the Church on this.
Yes, I know. You don’t know the difference.

You had no sensible reply to my post. Only blames and counter blames. I did not start this thread of investigation about sex. Then you absolve yourself from the bad deeds of the christians that they are not christians.
Not so easy for you to disown and getaway. Please do not be ignorant about what is going on in the christian dominated countries. For your information, marriage is null and void. They do not marry any more. Are you not responsible for that? You are as a preacher to the whole world about Jesus teachings, it is your first responsibility to look after your own people first. Thanks. I only wanted to tell you that I was not really impressed by your replies.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You had no sensible reply to my post. Only blames and counter blames. I did not start this thread of investigation about sex. Then you absolve yourself from the bad deeds of the christians that they are not christians.
Not so easy for you to disown and getaway. Please do not be ignorant about what is going on in the christian dominated countries. For your information, marriage is null and void. They do not marry any more. Are you not responsible for that? You are as a preacher to the whole world about Jesus teachings, it is your first responsibility to look after your own people first. Thanks. I only wanted to tell you that I was not really impressed by your replies.

I’m quite beyond worrying about impressing you.

You made claims.

I exposed them.

Inquiring minds want to know. They can judge for themselves.

 

[planten]

Planten, what Isa is trying to say can be illustrated in a hypothetical situation.

We’ll take a man, and we won’t say whether he’s Muslim or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Hindu or whatever. He takes to himself a number of wives, “right hand possessions”, concubines, etc. and treats the women as property. Islam says it’s okay, Christianity says it’s wrong.

I’m not absolutely sure that all that’s been said about Islam is true, but I have yet to see any real explanation/argument on the part of Muslims. It would be good to have some explanation from Muslims directly and fairly answering the questions.

**Thanks for your querry. Please bring to me the words of Jesus about marrying one wife only. Bring that and I will tell you some nice stories about the benefits of having more than one wife. Please take help from your friends here and let me know the teachings of Jesus about marrying only one woman (not even two).

I shall wait for the reply from your helper friends. I am sure they can’t prove their point. **

 

[planten]

Only problem: even the sunnis admit your prophet allowed Muta and Umar forbade it. And the Malikis allow it I believe, and you have Misyar, which is not, at least from our view point, much different from mut’a. Nor is it in practice.

Btw, muta has already entered the US courts and so already become a part of American jurisprudence.

**Malpractice of the muslims, same as the many mal practices of the christians. So forget them (forgive them) too, please. That is not Islam. **

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Thanks for your querry. Please bring to me the words of Jesus about marrying one wife only. Bring that and I will tell you some nice stories about the benefits of having more than one wife. Please take help from your friends here and let me know the teachings of Jesus about marrying only one woman (not even two).

I shall wait for the reply from your helper friends. I am sure they can’t prove their point. **

Ask and ye shall receive:

2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.” Mark 10:2-12.

I want to hear nice stories from the four wives, not the gloating of the rooster in the hen house.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Malpractice of the muslims, same as the many mal practices of the christians. So forget them (forgive them) too, please. That is not Islam. **

Again, Islam: what muslims don’t do.

misyar is perfectly legal. no mal practice. just bad law.

 

[planten]

Ask and ye shall receive:

2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.” Mark 10:2-12.

I want to hear nice stories from the four wives, not the gloating of the rooster in the hen house.

**That is not a lesson for monogamy. It is telling that no one should divorce his wife. That is same as in Islam. But Islam gives allowance in special cases which Jesus (or the writers of the bible) did not understand. I believe divorce was allowed in Judaism too. So it is not such a bad thing that God allowed in past time. Then suddenly disallowed it.

Now I come to the topic of bigamy. The words you have posted tell that no one should go for divorce. That is all. Jesus did not say that you cannot have a second wife. Where did Jesus forbid marriage to another wife? Please show that. Until then you are wandering in wrong fields.**

 

[planten]

Again, Islam: what muslims don’t do.

misyar is perfectly legal. no mal practice. just bad law.

**That is what you think. I only requested you not to bring up anything wrong because muslims are doing wrong things as the christians are doing bad things. Thos ethings have nothing to do with religion.

You are trying to open a new topic of misyar. I am not interested.**

 

[tommiatkins]

Deuteronomy 21:11
‘If among the prisoners you see a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her…’
‘…you may take her as a wife’ Bring her into your home, shave her head, cut her nails, and take off her prisoner’s garb.’ ‘She must stay inside your house and mourn for her father and mother for a full month.’‘After that, you may have sex with her.’'Should she not please you,you will let her go where she wishes. Do not sell her for money or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Islam is such a terrible religion. They should take lessons from what Jesus said above…

 

[Angelos]

**That is not a lesson for monogamy. It is telling that no one should divorce his wife. That is same as in Islam. But Islam gives allowance in special cases which Jesus (or the writers of the bible) did not understand. I believe divorce was allowed in Judaism too. So it is not such a bad thing that God allowed in past time. Then suddenly disallowed it.

Now I come to the topic of bigamy. The words you have posted tell that no one should go for divorce. That is all. Jesus did not say that you cannot have a second wife. Where did Jesus forbid marriage to another wife? Please show that. Until then you are wandering in wrong fields.**

Planten, I hope you understand English and have ability to follow the inferential strategy. Jesus’ remarks do not only express the divine will for the continuation of marital bond until death, but also for monogamy. Jesus wants everyone to focus on the general pattern of marriage determined by God alone at the beginning of the creation by referring to the first couple of humanity whom God directly united. Adam had one single wife, whom he was united with until death. Although God allowed Jews to divorce their wives, the reason for this was explained by Jesus Himself in His response. God’s permission was only temporary since His will was that man marry one woman and that the two be one:

**
Malachi 2:16**
"I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, “and the one who is guilty of violence,” says the Lord who rules over all. “Pay attention to your conscience, and do not be unfaithful.”

 

[inJESUS]

Planten, i like your reply :this is not Islam. are you sure you know true Islam?

Solomon? David? say whatever you want about them…the Bible does before you.

Mutaa marriage is what? not Islam? legalized prostitution? then you are accusing your prophet of immoral teachings that he changed later…Allah abrogated it maybe ? well the hadith quoted by Shia about it are much stronger than the Sunni claim that it was abolished…but good for Sunni for having realized how scandalous this teaching it, but saying it was abolished only proves that Muhammad did teach this “divine morality” and later changed his mind, as usual.

What do you want to say about good polygamy? that Allah allows women to be divorced because of his law? men can satisfy themselves and women take the consequence of either being divorced or sharing their husband with many women, not having too much time with him because he needs to sleep and live with God knows how many other woman?

 

[inJESUS]

Deuteronomy 21:11
‘If among the prisoners you see a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her…’
'…you may take her as a wife’ Bring her into your home, shave her head, cut her nails, and take off her prisoner’s garb.’ ‘She must stay inside your house and mourn for her father and mother for a full month.’‘After that, you may have sex with her.’'Should she not please you,you will let her go where she wishes. Do not sell her for money or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Islam is such a terrible religion. They should take lessons from what Jesus said above…

In Islam, a slave is not a wife since she can be sold…exactly the opposit of the Mosaic law.

If Muslims want to compare sahara tribal living with Islam, so be it, but they should not say it is God’s word to Muhammad confirming what came before him since Muhammad opposed it either willfully or ignorantly.

The same applies to a divorcee who must have intercourse with another man to marry again her first husband,it is called abomination by God yet Allah says it must be done.

 

[R_not]

**O.K. Please add to the above that only Shias (13%) muslims believe like that. The others do not and the others are fighting against the Shias on this subject because it is their wrong interpretation of Islam. More over if any one said (asked) if their daughters had comitted Muta’h, the Shias become angry.

So this story has collapsed as a false one. Welcome with something which should be definite. You had lacked the real knowledge about the Muslims. So it is better that you do not indulge inthis business. Even if you had the knowledge but you failed to tell the whole (correct) story. So you are no good in describing the Muslims. Thanks…**

This is common practice for muslims to blame the other sect for something that we find disgusting. It is indeed practiced in the other sects of islam.

And it is also common for muslims to think that infidels should not discuss islam, allah, mohammed, etc. They are working now to get it against the law to do so on the internet - they are already working towards getting certain muslim words against the law, such as jihad, etc.

jihadwatch.org/archives/022053.php

Anyway, one of the best articles on slaves in islam is this one that I found:
answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

muslims are kidnapping girls in India, Africa, Southeast Asia, and many might be surprised - in Europe - and forcing them to convert to islam, marry. this is rape and slavery.

But, it is indeed ok to take slaves, pass them around as booty, to rape them, since this is what their prophet did and sanctioned. In fact, mohammed’s little band of followers at first did not want to impregnat them - but mohammed told them to go ahead and do so. From the above website from Silas:

**BUKHARI’S HADITH AND SLAVERY

There are hundreds of Hadith that deal with slavery. Whole chapters of Hadith are dedicated to dealing with the taxation, treatment, sale, and jurisprudence of slaves. In addition to this, numerous Hadith mention slaves, and their relation to their Muslim masters. Here is a selection of Hadith on slaves: [all Hadith are from Sahih Bukhari, unless noted.]

Vol. 7-#137 Narrated Abu al-Khudri: “We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah’s messenger about it and he said, “Do you really do that?” repeating the question thrice, “There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection.””

Here, Muslims had taken female slaves, and had sex with them. Muhammad approved of this. He only admonished them not to practice coitus interruptus.**