Islam spread through sword and coercion.

[Harris]

we accept everything. Here we are talking about the spread of a faith.

 

[Harris]

And why pick and choose certain era of history? As I said, one has to look at this with a less tinted partisan eyes, then maybe a more rational picture will emerge. Otherwise it will merely depend on who is doing the talking and the writing.

 

[inJESUS]

And why pick and choose certain era of history? As I said, one has to look at this with a less tinted partisan eyes, then maybe a more rational picture will emerge. Otherwise it will merely depend on who is doing the talking and the writing.

but we are talking about the “spread”, that is why you look at the begining .

 

[inJESUS]

again, let us look back at the begining of Christianity where it was being spread and compare it to Islam, to assess. No one is saying Christian nations (if there are) never held a sword, but we are talking about the spread of a faith as soon as the faith began.

As you can see, not all that is Islam was spread by the sword.

of course not.

True, early Christian followers did not force people to convert (they were not in the position to do so) but their effect was minimum and insignificant compared to when it was officialized by Constantine.

logical, since they were no more fed to lions, nor persecuted from town to town.

 

[Harris]

but we are talking about the “spread”, that is why you look at the begining .

It’s not logical. True, Islam did a fast start because it followers involved in governing but so too Chritianity at a later time. Are you saying that there would be no Islam today had in the first few centuries there were no Islamic government? You can’t ever tell. Since you believe in God or divine order, surely what happened had got to do in some ways the will of the Creator, don’t you think?

 

[Harris]

Can I ask you something? What is the fruit of Christianity by the essence ot its establishment? Because I am sure that matters to you. Christainity spread and became many nations - is this the fruit that your Holy Book speaks about?

 

[inJESUS]

It’s not logical. True, Islam did a fast start because it followers involved in governing but so too Chritianity at a later time.

does governing include wars?

Are you saying that there would be no Islam today had in the first few centuries there were no Islamic government? You can’t ever tell.

 

[inJESUS]

Can I ask you something? What is the fruit of Christianity by the essence ot its establishment? Because I am sure that matters to you. Christainity spread and became many nations - is this the fruit that your Holy Book speaks about?

the fruit is in the how (quality), not the quantity…

 

[Harris]

does governing include wars?

That’s why this thread makes no sense.

i differentiate between what God wants and what He allows…

Subjective and depend upon one’s interpretation. And got nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Since its an admission that Christianity is actually no different and actually guilty of the very accusation the religion that this thread tries to malign.

 

[Harris]

the fruit is in the how (quality), not the quantity…

But it says it should last, is it not?

 

[Booklover]

inJESUS;4025988:

Ah, you can see for yourself. I can see many wars perpetuated and made by Christian countries, governments and spiritual leaders.
inJESUS;4025988:

That’s why this thread makes no sense.
inJESUS;4025988:

Subjective and depend upon one’s interpretation. And got nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Since its an admission that Christianity is actually no different and actually guilty of the very accusation the religion that this thread tries to malign.

Harris, since you are a Muslim, tell us what the fruits of Islam are? What positive impact has it had on the world? In what way is the world a better place because of it?

Why are Muslim countries among the most backward on the planet? Could that have anything to do with Islam??

Vickie

 

[Harris]

Harris;4026013:

inJESUS;4025988:

Ah, you can see for yourself. I can see many wars perpetuated and made by Christian countries, governments and spiritual leaders.
inJESUS;4025988:

That’s why this thread makes no sense.

Harris, since you are a Muslim, tell us what the fruits of Islam are? What positive impact has it had on the world? In what way is the world a better place because of it?

Why are Muslim countries among the most backward on the planet? Could that have anything to do with Islam??

Vickie

Hi there. Good question but you are contradicting your Christian brother inJesus. But as you can see by the title of this thread, Islam is the victim. Since a Christian makes the accusation then the onus should be on you to tell me the fruit of Christianity that it has which Islam does not have.

As for Islam countries being poor, what that got to do with the religion? Does not your Holy Book exhorts you to be spiritually poor? And do you base the virtue of a religion by the wealth and the sophistication of its followers? If that the case then you have utterly confuse me about Christianity. I thought you are taught to dismiss the worldly things because they will not bring to to heaven. Am I right or wrong?

 

[Harris]

BTW, I had mentioned Francis of Assissi earlier on. In my History lesson, I understand that he seemed to advocate poverty. So which one is it now?

 

[Booklover]

=Harris;4026013Ah, you can see for yourself. I can see many wars perpetuated and made by Christian countries, governments and spiritual leaders.

See for a history of jihad.

Hi there. Good question but you are contradicting your Christian brother inJesus. But as you can see by the title of this thread, Islam is the victim. Since a Christian makes the accusation then the onus should be on you to tell me the fruit of Christianity that it has which Islam does not have.

Islam is no “victim”. It’s the aggressor that wants to conquer the whole world by war if necessary and destroy all other forms of governments and religions.

This OP is about Islam, not Christianity, and you refuse to reply because you haven’t got an answer.

As for Islam countries being poor, what that got to do with the religion? Does not your Holy Book exhorts you to be spiritually poor? And do you base the virtue of a religion by the wealth and the sophistication of its followers? If that the case then you have utterly confuse me about Christianity. I thought you are taught to dismiss the worldly things because they will not bring to to heaven. Am I right or wrong?

I said “backward”, and it has everything to do with Islam since it’s mired in the superstitious, cruel and inhuman beliefs of the ignorant 7th century bedouin Arabs and is nothing more than Arab imperialism.

Being “spiritually poor” does not mean being ignorant and against progress.

Vickie

 

[Harris]

See for a history of jihad.

Islam is no “victim”. It’s the aggressor that wants to conquer the whole world by war if necessary and destroy all other forms of governments and religions.

This OP is about Islam, not Christianity, and you refuse to reply because you haven’t got an answer.

I said “backward”, and it has everything to do with Islam since it’s mired in the superstitious, cruel and inhuman beliefs of the ignorant 7th century bedouin Arabs and is nothing more than Arab imperialism.

Being “spiritually poor” does not mean being ignorant and against progress.

Vickie

I have spoken my piece that Christianity is no different. We are actually speaking about the followers and not the religions, which is a mistake. That’s what I am trying to say here. I have not more to be said as it will be just mud slinging and there are lots that can be said that can embarass us both.

As for the people, it could be about the Jews or Arabs, but what are we trying to prove? Which people are perfect?

You have not answered me about what St Francis of Assissi advocated. On the other hand, inJesus seems to bank in the virtue of the early Christians who were fed to the lions for their faith. Surely you agree with me that those were the least, at least in their time, compared to the wealthy Romans. Now Christians nations have become rich, well-informed and progressing. Again I would like to ask you, which are better Christians - the poor early Christians or the progressive Christians of today? If you answer the latter, then your Pope must have made a mistake when he mentioned something about relativity and moral decadance among the progressive society and the the apostation of today Christians. Again I would like to ask you, how many of Christian Europe today who can call themselves, truly, truly Christians.

If this is the fruit of Christianity, then I am glad that I am not one, no matter how bad you think Islam is.

I am saying Islam is the victim here by the suggestion of the title of this thread. I am certainly not defending the atrocities that Muslims committed in the name of Islam. Like for example if someone start a thread by saying that the Pope is antiChrist, which is not a nice thing to say,then that person must be able to back it up and at the same time frees from the same folly.

My purpose here is to debunk the title of this thread which is malicous and dishonest. I have spoken and let mature readers decide for themselves. Again I would like to remind us again about the fruit - who and what we are - are we the fruits that are being produced by the teaching of our respective religion? Admittedly this is Christian teaching from the little knowledge that I know about Christianity. And that’s why I would like to argue on what you know - which is much better than I am.

 

[inJESUS]

1- We are talkling about the starting of a faith. Can you show me where in the first hundreds years of Christianity there was the “ideology” of war conquests to spread Christianity? if there wasn’t, on what basis are you basing your claims on Christian ideology? i don’t expect replies as " see what Americans are doing"…i expect history-based proof that conquering wars are a Christian ideology used by the earliest Christians to spread Chrristianity. AND i do not expect the answer “they could do nothing” because people who already have this ideology will work on it.

That’s why this thread makes no sense.

we cannot build arguments on “if” so your question was actually irrelevant. There were wars of conquests right after Muhammad’s death, this is not “if” but a fact. If this did not happen, nobody knows what’d have happened of Muhammad’s religion but it did happen and we are comparing how Islam was spread and how Christianity was spread …Islam’s wars started within Islam , Ahlul-beit versus Ahlul-Sunna and war conquests started to subjugate other nations : convert, pay or die. None of this happened in the rise of Christianity.

Subjective and depend upon one’s interpretation. And got nothing to do with the subject of this thread

you asked about it in the first place

. Since its an admission that Christianity is actually no different and actually guilty of the very accusation the religion that this thread tries to malign.

but you still have to show that the rise of Christianity included wars of conquests as an ideology and fact pertaining to the faith itself.

 

[inJESUS]

But it says it should last, is it not?

you cannot be Christian with bad fruit, nor a Christian with temporary good fruit…again, it’s the quality not quantity…maybe you can quote scripture for me to understand what you mean by “last”.

 

[Booklover]

I have spoken my piece that Christianity is no different. We are actually speaking about the followers and not the religions, which is a mistake. That’s what I am trying to say here. I have not more to be said as it will be just mud slinging and there are lots that can be said that can embarass us both.

When Christians do bad things, they are going against the teachings of Christianity, but can Muslims say the same about Islam? The Quran is full of statements advocating violence against the unbelievers and we see the fruits of this on a daily basis.

As for the people, it could be about the Jews or Arabs, but what are we trying to prove? Which people are perfect?

No one is perfect.

You have not answered me about what St Francis of Assissi advocated. On the other hand, inJesus seems to bank in the virtue of the early Christians who were fed to the lions for their faith. Surely you agree with me that those were the least, at least in their time, compared to the wealthy Romans. Now Christians nations have become rich, well-informed and progressing. Again I would like to ask you, which are better Christians - the poor early Christians or the progressive Christians of today? If you answer the latter, then your Pope must have made a mistake when he mentioned something about relativity and moral decadance among the progressive society and the the apostation of today Christians. Again I would like to ask you, how many of Christian Europe today who can call themselves, truly, truly Christians.

What has this got to do with the OP? Yes. there are many Christians that are not living good lives. They’re misusing their free will to do things contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

How are the early Christians compared to wealthy Romans? You’re not making any sense besides using the usual Muslim tactic of attacking other faiths rather than actually defending your own.

What has progress got to do with the OP? According to what you’re saying, we should all still be living in the Stone Age and never even have invented the wheel! God gave us a brain and the powers of rational thinking; he did not give us the brain as stuffing for the skull!

If this is the fruit of Christianity, then I am glad that I am not one, no matter how bad you think Islam is.

I’m glad I’m not a Muslim either!

I am saying Islam is the victim here by the suggestion of the title of this thread. I am certainly not defending the atrocities that Muslims committed in the name of Islam. Like for example if someone start a thread by saying that the Pope is antiChrist, which is not a nice thing to say,then that person must be able to back it up and at the same time frees from the same folly.

My purpose here is to debunk the title of this thread which is malicous and dishonest. I have spoken and let mature readers decide for themselves. Again I would like to remind us again about the fruit - who and what we are - are we the fruits that are being produced by the teaching of our respective religion? Admittedly this is Christian teaching from the little knowledge that I know about Christianity. And that’s why I would like to argue on what you know - which is much better than I am.

You have done nothing to debunk the OP! All you’ve done is use tu quoques to attack our faith and have not posted any positive aspect of Islam as I asked you to.

As for the fruit you mention, actions speak louder than words as can be seen by the daily atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of Islam and posted on this site:

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Here are a few examples:
8/6/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - A school principal is shot multiple times by Shahid while on his way home.8/6/2008 (Swat, Pakistan) - Islamic militants burn down several girls schools and kill two people, including a child, in separate attacks.8/5/2008 (Nazran, Ingushetia) - Muslim hardliners take down two local cops in separate Kalashnikov attacks.8/5/2008 (Basra, Iraq) - Fundamentalists shoot a barber to death for shaving beards.8/5/2008 (Kirkuk, Iraq) - al-Qaeda militants slit the throats of three Iraqis.8/4/2008 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Jihadis manage to kill two civilians with a roadside bomb.

Vickie

 

[uncommon_sense]

Ok, so we all live by sword (except for athiests and agnostics ).

But at least christians are true to history and don’t deny the crucifixion.

True to history? what history? the only account of the crucifixion is through the bible, there’s been no proof of the crucifixion except for people that have faith in the bible and are Christians. you meant to say true to the Bible and your faith, which is good, great to have faith, Muslims simply don’t believe the crucifixion story… but there not Christians, yeah I know thats not what you want but I’m sure you don’t believe in Muhammed being a prophet and thats not what they want. It all spread through the sword, back then it was hard not to spread through the sword, LOL, but does it really matter today that Islam spread through the sword(especially when we know that most other religions spread through the sword as well) , what do we gain by talking about a part of the past that does not help the future and bickering about different accounts of a story that were never going to agree on in the first place, does one side think it’s going to change the mind of the other side, is that why this post was created?, If so then I would love to see the statistics of how many former Muslims switched sides because of posts like this, but I don’t think the numbers would look so great.

 

[inJESUS]

what do we gain by talking about a part of the past that does not help the future

that part is rooted in ideology and that “part” was called “future” for the people of the past, the people who had to convert, pay, or die …they did not die because of a mistake of the past but because of Muhammad’s ideologies.