Islam spread through sword and coercion.

[rpp]

This thread has been hijacked by a Moslem engaging in takiya who insists on talking about the spread of Christianity. That is not the topic of this thread.

Moslems lie about history all the time. I have never met a Moslem who can be considered a reliable source since Islam teaches it is permissible to lie to non-Moslems in an effort to promote Islam. In the same what, this Moslem is hijacking the thread which is against the rules of this forum.

If you want to talk about the spread and growth of Christianity, start a different thread.

 

[uncommon_sense]

that part is rooted in ideology and that “part” was called “future” for the people of the past, the people who had to convert, pay, or die …they did not die because of a mistake of the past but because of Muhammad’s ideologies.

Muhammad’s ideologies are followed by Muhammad’s followers and Jesus by His, “Islam spread through sword and coercion”, religions started and spread through sword and coercion throughout history, these things we know, which is why I wonder why it’s brought up, lets say for example there are people on this forum who did not know how (SOME) religions were spread and asked to be educated, the question then becomes, why is Islam the only religion in the title of the thread, even if it was a topic of previous conversation that sparked the thread’s opening with the big map and all. why is this even a topic? LOL, It will not change a thing, has anybody realized that the growth in Islam has so much to do with the fact that threads like “Islam spread through sword and coercion” are started, on a Catholic forum for that matter where the only Muslims on this forum are going to do nothing but try and disprove the topic of discusion, which by the way is what Catholics would do if in a similar situation, some might reply that were supposed to spread Jesus teaching’s, I can’t see how a thread like this spreads Jesus teachings as much as it try to disprove others, which leads me again to the same point, we already know that a lot of religions were “spread through sword and coercion”.

 

[uncommon_sense]

This thread has been hijacked by a Moslem engaging in takiya who insists on talking about the spread of Christianity. That is not the topic of this thread.

Moslems lie about history all the time. I have never met a Moslem who can be considered a reliable source since Islam teaches it is permissible to lie to non-Moslems in an effort to promote Islam. In the same what, this Moslem is hijacking the thread which is against the rules of this forum.

If you want to talk about the spread and growth of Christianity, start a different thread.

Then maybe you should petition to have Muslims not allowed on the forum, If you were a Christian and saw a thread that read “Christianity spread through sword and coercion” I’m guessing you would be compelled to defend your faith.

 

[inJESUS]

No one is saying that every single thread must result in something. If within Christian ideology there is war of conquests, please provide us with the wars started in the first century, by Christians…you can extend it to 400 years even if you consider it a good period for spreading a faith…and then compare it to the wars spread by Muhammad’s followers as soon as he died.

Why is this thread about Islam only? because the OP wants so. He is a convert to Christianity from Islam and this topic interests him. It intrests me as well because not so long ago, my people had to hid in caves because of Muslims.

Bishop Dib, cites a report sent from Qannoubin(city in Northern Lebanon) to the Pope in 1475 by the legate Brother Alexander of Arioste describing the situation in Lebanon at his time: “In the midst of this nation live the Saracens( Muslims) … Their tyranny knows no rest. Under the pretext of raising a certain tribute that they call gelia, they [the agents of the authority] despoil the poor mountain people of all that they have. Against these vexations, there is only one recourse possible, apostasy. Many might have fallen if it had not been for the charity of their pious Patriarch [Peter Ibn Hassan] who came to their aid. Dismayed at the peril to the souls of his sheep, he gave over all the revenues of his churches to satisfy the greed of the tyrants. The door of the [patriarchal] monastery was walled up; sometimes he was obliged to hide in the caves hollowed out of the earth.”

"We pray God that we would be liberated, in your days, from the jurisdiction of the Infidels who devour us, crush us and impose on us very heavy taxes and duties, humiliation, persecution, who beat us and slap us" wrote the patriarch “Simon Bar David” to the pope Leon X, on March S, 1514.

 

[uncommon_sense]

No one is saying that every single thread must result in something. If within Christian ideology there is war of conquests, please provide us with the wars started in the first century, by Christians…you can extend it to 400 years even if you consider it a good period for spreading a faith…and then compare it to the wars spread by Muhammad’s followers as soon as he died.

Why is this thread about Islam only? because the OP wants so. He is a convert to Christianity from Islam and this topic interests him. It intrests me as well because not so long ago, my people had to hid in caves because of Muslims.

Bishop Dib, cites a report sent from Qannoubin(city in Northern Lebanon) to the Pope in 1475 by the legate Brother Alexander of Arioste describing the situation in Lebanon at his time: “In the midst of this nation live the Saracens( Muslims) … Their tyranny knows no rest. Under the pretext of raising a certain tribute that they call gelia, they [the agents of the authority] despoil the poor mountain people of all that they have. Against these vexations, there is only one recourse possible, apostasy. Many might have fallen if it had not been for the charity of their pious Patriarch [Peter Ibn Hassan] who came to their aid. Dismayed at the peril to the souls of his sheep, he gave over all the revenues of his churches to satisfy the greed of the tyrants. The door of the [patriarchal] monastery was walled up; sometimes he was obliged to hide in the caves hollowed out of the earth.”

"We pray God that we would be liberated, in your days, from the jurisdiction of the Infidels who devour us, crush us and impose on us very heavy taxes and duties, humiliation, persecution, who beat us and slap us" wrote the patriarch “Simon Bar David” to the pope Leon X, on March S, 1514.

So what he posted you did not know before he posted it, you did not know that Islam was spread by the sword, woulden’t you say that it’s time wasted talking about Islam’s problems instead of Christianity’s good? I’m wrong if you think talking about it will do any good on a CATHOLIC FORUM, I will admit to that, If you agree that talking about Islam’s problem’s(not solution) to people that already agree on Islam’s problems (or disagree and will not change stance) than I’m wrong and sorry.

 

[inJESUS]

So what he posted you did not know before he posted it, you did not know that Islam was spread by the sword, woulden’t you say that it’s time wasted talking about Islam’s problems instead of Christianity’s good?

wouldn’t that be hijacking the thread? the thread is not about Christianity…this sub-forum includes many topics.

 

[uncommon_sense]

No one is saying that every single thread must result in something. If within Christian ideology there is war of conquests, please provide us with the wars started in the first century, by Christians…you can extend it to 400 years even if you consider it a good period for spreading a faith…and then compare it to the wars spread by Muhammad’s followers as soon as he died.

Why is this thread about Islam only? because the OP wants so. He is a convert to Christianity from Islam and this topic interests him. It intrests me as well because not so long ago, my people had to hid in caves because of Muslims.

Bishop Dib, cites a report sent from Qannoubin(city in Northern Lebanon) to the Pope in 1475 by the legate Brother Alexander of Arioste describing the situation in Lebanon at his time: “In the midst of this nation live the Saracens( Muslims) … Their tyranny knows no rest. Under the pretext of raising a certain tribute that they call gelia, they [the agents of the authority] despoil the poor mountain people of all that they have. Against these vexations, there is only one recourse possible, apostasy. Many might have fallen if it had not been for the charity of their pious Patriarch [Peter Ibn Hassan] who came to their aid. Dismayed at the peril to the souls of his sheep, he gave over all the revenues of his churches to satisfy the greed of the tyrants. The door of the [patriarchal] monastery was walled up; sometimes he was obliged to hide in the caves hollowed out of the earth.”

"We pray God that we would be liberated, in your days, from the jurisdiction of the Infidels who devour us, crush us and impose on us very heavy taxes and duties, humiliation, persecution, who beat us and slap us" wrote the patriarch “Simon Bar David” to the pope Leon X, on March S, 1514.

your right, i will move on, sorry, maybe they will allow us to turn it into a new thread, and thanks for answering the question

 

[inJESUS]

uncommon_sense:
your right, i will move on, sorry, maybe they will allow us to turn it into a new thread, and thanks for answering the question
no need to apologize you can pick the threads that interest you …there are plenty of sub-forums on CAF .

 

[uncommon_sense]

no need to apologize you can pick the threads that interest you …there are plenty of sub-forums on CAF .

would u mind if I used our little back and forth to start a new thread?

 

[inJESUS]

would u mind if I used our little back and forth to start a new thread?

why would i mind? start any thread you want and if i can share, i will

 

[uncommon_sense]

why would i mind? start any thread you want and if i can share, i will

Thank u much

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

True to history? what history? the only account of the crucifixion is through the bible, there’s been no proof of the crucifixion except for people that have faith in the bible and are Christians…

Hi uncommon sense,

Are you sure that historians will deny that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans?

With a quick search of the internet, you will find information that Pontius Pilate, Governor of Judea, sent a report to Tiberius Caesar in Rome describing the events that surrounded the crucifixion - in particular, the blood red moon.

It’s not right to sit on the fence; You need to stick your neck out. Was Jesus of Nazareth crucified? I wonder if you have the courage to answer this question.

 

[uncommon_sense]

Hi uncommon sense,

Are you sure that historians will deny that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans?

With a quick search of the internet, you will find information that Pontius Pilate, Governor of Judea, sent a report to Tiberius Caesar in Rome describing the events that surrounded the crucifixion - in particular, the blood red moon.

It’s not right to sit on the fence; You need to stick your neck out. Was Jesus of Nazareth crucified? I wonder if you have the courage to answer this question.

I wish I had rock solid proof that JESUS was CRUCIFIED, I’d convert on the spot, as a matter of fact show me the proof were it says JESUS was CRUCIFIED and rose up again, and you can be a witness to my conversion, but of course the proof can’t be from the writings or mouth of a Christian because that would be faith based proof not rock solid, but show me, I believe if this proof was available there would be a whole lot more Christians walking around and I’d be one of them. and there would be no need for faith it would all be fact.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I wish I had rock solid proof that JESUS was CRUCIFIED, I’d convert on the spot, as a matter of fact show me the proof were it says JESUS was CRUCIFIED and rose up again, and you can be a witness to my conversion, but of course the proof can’t be from the writings or mouth of a Christian because that would be faith based proof not rock solid, but show me, I believe if this proof was available there would be a whole lot more Christians walking around and I’d be one of them. and there would be no need for faith it would all be fact.

I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified on Friday 3rd April 33AD at 3pm.

I have no doubt that Christ, our passover lamb, was cruicified.

Just do some research. Seek, and you will find.

 

[uncommon_sense]

I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified on Friday 3rd April 33AD at 3pm.

I have no doubt that Christ, our passover lamb, was cruicified.

Just do some research. Seek, and you will find.

That’s faith based proof, for people who BELIEVE in a faith that you have which is great, the point is that my google search would not turn any factual proof of Jesus crucifixion which is good because that would kill the whole idea of faith. Some people just don’t share the same faith, “Was Jesus of Nazareth crucified?” only a persons faith can answer that question or lack thereof.

 

[Harris]

This thread has been hijacked by a Moslem engaging in takiya who insists on talking about the spread of Christianity. That is not the topic of this thread.

Moslems lie about history all the time. I have never met a Moslem who can be considered a reliable source since Islam teaches it is permissible to lie to non-Moslems in an effort to promote Islam. In the same what, this Moslem is hijacking the thread which is against the rules of this forum.

If you want to talk about the spread and growth of Christianity, start a different thread.

You are making judgment, which is called generalization. All Muslims lie and all Muslims are not reliable. Tell me as I appeal to your Christian’s sense of fair play, how we can move on with the conversation based on this perception?

Let me make it clear, since you do not seem to read in between the lines of what I write:-

There is no compulsion in Islam. Yes, there were times, periods and places in History where Muslims forced people to accept their faith. But this does not mean that Islam forces people to convert. Can you see the difference?

Similarly, there were many times, periods and places (even the whole continent) in History where Christians forced people to accept their faith. But does this mean that Christianity forces people to become Christians?

So when the OP comes with a thread that says “Islam spread through sword and coercion”, I say, what the big deal? Christianity all the times was even more expert and familiar with this, why just confine it to Islam? While at the risk of seemingly hijacking this thread as you maintain, I think my argument is valid and relevant.

You will not go anywhere when you generalize because you will not like it when others start to generalize about you. And it not right and not fair. Unless you think it is right and fair, then I have nothin to say against you.

 

[Harris]

1- We are talkling about the starting of a faith. Can you show me where in the first hundreds years of Christianity there was the “ideology” of war conquests to spread Christianity? if there wasn’t, on what basis are you basing your claims on Christian ideology? i don’t expect replies as " see what Americans are doing"…i expect history-based proof that conquering wars are a Christian ideology used by the earliest Christians to spread Chrristianity. AND i do not expect the answer “they could do nothing” because people who already have this ideology will work on it.

we cannot build arguments on “if” so your question was actually irrelevant. There were wars of conquests right after Muhammad’s death, this is not “if” but a fact. If this did not happen, nobody knows what’d have happened of Muhammad’s religion but it did happen and we are comparing how Islam was spread and how Christianity was spread …Islam’s wars started within Islam , Ahlul-beit versus Ahlul-Sunna and war conquests started to subjugate other nations : convert, pay or die. None of this happened in the rise of Christianity.

you asked about it in the first place

but you still have to show that the rise of Christianity included wars of conquests as an ideology and fact pertaining to the faith itself.

With due respect, this is a non-starter. You already put a condition on how and what to discuss which obviously siding your argument. I can understand you want to approach it that way, but that is through the eyes of an already biased Christian. Again I ask, why pick and choose certain era of History?

True, there were wars of conquest by the successors of Mohammad, but you cannot for certain say that Islam depends on this episode for it to survive and spread. You already admitted as much. And I already pointed to you that not all Islamic nations were won by the sword of Islam.

Now you want me to point to you about the war of conquest of Christianity? I already mentioned to you about Constantine. Now if at all you want to protest at this, then I would say, why discriminate, when the effect is the same? Before Constantine there was no signifant inroad for a Christian nation, which in a way, you had admitted.

By why stop there? Why not trace more of Christian expansion History? Maybe tell me, which country that are Christians that was not won by the sword? Because the answer is obvious - for every one country that you would say so, there are ten that are won by the sword of your Christian armies, King and Popes. I would stop here because maybe you want me to name a few. But let hear from you first.

And yes, the fruit. … I could be wrong, and if so, please correct me. The fruit shoulds last and if any fruit that does not last, I don’t think it is from God. So can you tell me the fruit of Christian nations?

 

[Harris]

When Christians do bad things, they are going against the teachings of Christianity, but can Muslims say the same about Islam? The Quran is full of statements advocating violence against the unbelievers and we see the fruits of this on a daily basis.

Of course they can!

The statements of the Quran needs to be understood in context that must be in line with its spirit and purpose. You may interpret them as advocating violence but I put it to you they are not.

Again as a reference for clarity - not all Biblical statements can be interpretated according to one’s whim and fancy. You can say that for the Quran.

No one is perfect.

How this come about, uh? Oh,you were mentioning about certain perculiarities of an Arab tribe. Sometimes tribal customs can find their way into religous practices, but it does not make they are right or advocated by the religion. You don’t experience this in Christianity? Don’t tell me you don’t!

What has this got to do with the OP? Yes. there are many Christians that are not living good lives. They’re misusing their free will to do things contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Therefore your assertion that Islamic countries are ‘backward’ due to Islam does not hold water. Nice try though but I know you don’t speak for the other Christians when you said that.

Well, the reason for backwardness can be more complex than you care to admit. Just ask any Sociology student!

How are the early Christians compared to wealthy Romans? You’re not making any sense besides using the usual Muslim tactic of attacking other faiths rather than actually defending your own.

I am being misunderstood. Maybe that was my fault. You seemed to equate by implication that progressiveness equals religous success - therefore Islam is wrong because its people are backward.

I can say you are truly cruel for saying that. Many backward Muslims are not of their own choice. Again the reason is more complex than you imagine it to be. Many ordinary Muslims family are just like you - parent swho aspire for their children to be someone good in the society and pious with their religous committment.

I was saying in effect that the early Christians were better Christains than the progressive Christian of today, and they were not rich nor sophisticated. I gave example of what your Pope says, in case you think I make that up.

What has progress got to do with the OP? According to what you’re saying, we should all still be living in the Stone Age and never even have invented the wheel! God gave us a brain and the powers of rational thinking; he did not give us the brain as stuffing for the skull!

Actually your original question to me got nothing to do with the OP. Enough said. Please refer to page 1 or 2 (I think) of this thread.

I’m glad I’m not a Muslim either!

I would want to be a Christian if you can show me what in there for me.

You have done nothing to debunk the OP! All you’ve done is use tu quoques to attack our faith and have not posted any positive aspect of Islam as I asked you to.

You fall into your own trap of trying to brand Muslims of using tu quoques. Not this time. Sorry. Nothing that i say even close to that. I am saying that the title of the thread is malicous in its intent and unfair. I don’t condone spreading a religion by the sword or by force. But Muslims did it, Christians did it. Does not make it right. So what tu quoques about that?

As for the fruit you mention, actions speak louder than words as can be seen by the daily atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of Islam and posted on this site:

Right but they are not the fruit of Islam. Simply because someone says it’s in the name of Islam does not mean it is so.

You pick a bunch of terrorists and extremists, and lo and behold, that is Islam.

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Here are a few examples:
8/6/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - A school principal is shot multiple times by Shahid while on his way home.8/6/2008 (Swat, Pakistan) - Islamic militants burn down several girls schools and kill two people, including a child, in separate attacks.8/5/2008 (Nazran, Ingushetia) - Muslim hardliners take down two local cops in separate Kalashnikov attacks.8/5/2008 (Basra, Iraq) - Fundamentalists shoot a barber to death for shaving beards.8/5/2008 (Kirkuk, Iraq) - al-Qaeda militants slit the throats of three Iraqis.8/4/2008 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Jihadis manage to kill two civilians with a roadside bomb.

Vickie

Again, picking a bunch of terrorists and extremists … Christians have a History of burning people alive tied to stakes. Do you want me to say that this is Christianity?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The thread can equally well speaks for Christianity which was spread through the sword and coercion too. No honest Christians can deny this fact.

Yes - one thinks here of the loving invitation of Charlemagne to the Germanic pagans: the choice was between baptism or death. Very apostolic ​

St Olaf of Sweden is only a saint because after his conversion in 1015 he used Christianity for political ends, & tried to force it on his subjects; & died in battle as a result.

The Lithuanians were pagan until they were converted by the Teutonic Knights, AKA the Knights of the Sword: a very apt name.

As for Mexico: That was all Our Lady of Guadalupe - the fact that the conquistadors had laid claim to Mexico for Spain was of course neither here nor there: people never mention Cortez, they never mention the destruction of the Aztec empire.

The Incas were overcome in the same way in the 1530s

The fact is that only in the 1920s did the Papacy get round to insisting that the propagation of the Gospel must not be confused with the furtherance of secular power. There has been an awful lot of violence for the propagating of it. So why single out Islam ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

No, not really. The OP implies that coercion is strictly Islam’s character (if I undertsand correctly). This is not so however. Instead of looking at Islam, perhaps you guys should do a reality check on yourselves. I don’t blame you for not able to see what actually happening to Christianity history but it sure helps to look at it with less partisan eyes. And the truth is maybe things that you don’t quite like to accept.

The first 300 years? Christianity should thank Constantine for what it is today.

Hardly. There’s a case for saying that Constantine’s policies toward it helped to debauch it, by teaching it to become much too cosy with secular authority. Christianity is at its best when it is persecuted - give it power, & it is almost always corrupted.​

But surely this is not the issue, I believe. War is just war. Nations fall and nation rise. Empires fall and empires rise. Islamic empire is just like any other empires - Christian, Mongol, Communism, British, etc. Only the ideology different. Do you blame Christianity on what Christian nations did?

Churches are empires of a sort. They are not exempt from the processes which lead empires to pass away. Nestorianism used to be widespread throughout the Far East - not now. Roman Africa used to be stiff with bishoprics; Arabia was so far Christianised by the fourth century as to have its own heretics. But now ? Gone.​

If the Church were not to a great extent built on the Roman Empire, geographically & culturally, it might be nowhere near as large as it is; and the Roman Empire was not founded by Christ.

What more pertinent issue will be - what did the religion achieve based solely on peaceful means on spreading its influence and followers. Christianity does not impress surely on this count. Its best disciples did not show much in term of converting nations. St Francis of Assissi or Francis Xavier for example. China and Japan today are still largely non- Christians. As for Christian Europe, please tell us how many of them can truly, truly call themselves Christian today.

Islam may nor fare well either. But at least you have countries in East Asia that became Islamic despite being mastered by white Christians. Some food for thought for the originator of this thread.

And we are talking about the fruits, eh?