Islam supports religious freedom than Catholic

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ShockerFan wrote:
“Unfortunately, and I understand this is a debateable point for another thread, that many in the west also can’t look at Muslims outside of history either.”

It’s also unfortunate that many in the West can’t look at the history of Christianity inside of history. For example, is the current treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim nations worse than the Christian treatment of Muslims and pagans in the past?

Is the Church tolerant of pagans? Was it tolerant in the past? How did it treat them in the past? How tolerant is the Church when it has the upper hand?

These questions should be put to all religions, and Christianity should not be exempt.

How were Muslims and pagans treated in Rome of the Middle Ages?
 
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shockerfan:
Sounds like your issue is with the fact that just about every “terroristic” act committed against the US in the last 20 years has been predominantly by Muslim (or at least people who call themselves Muslim). I absolutely understand that those who do these things don’t follow, as you and many other Muslim posters on this website, your opinion of what “true Islam” is.
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actually, no. that’s not my issue. you made the claim that in the west religious bigotry is looked down upon and not tolerated. however, the plain reality is that this stuff occurs in the west under the guise of national security or in the case of france, in the name of secularism and prevention of hate crimes. i call b.s. especially given the fact that i know of individuals who i know personally who have been held at the border attempting entry into the states for upto 4 or more hours being interogated. two of these individuals were refused entry on baseless grounds and lame duck excuses like “you said you had $200 on you but you actually have less than that” when in fact, 1. in the 4+ hours they held him for questioning, no one had asked him how much money he had on him, and 2. he actually had more than $200 cash on him, plus credit and debit cards. the only obvious reasons behind their harrassment was that 1. they were muslim and 2. they had some sort of connection with saudi arabia (either they had visited there before or work there).

i also know of individuals who have been arrested and brought to trial unjustly for possessing certain lecture cassettes by scholars who the authorities thought was someone else. and then there’s that whole thing with bush and his unauthorized secret wiretaps… and that’s just in the states. in canada i know of a couple of cases where the government has imprisoned muslim individuals without charging them—or it could be that they have and have not disclosed that information (not even to the imprisoned individuals themselves).

i understand the concept of caution, but if this isn’t paranoia, then it’s definitely bordering on it.
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shockerfan:
Again, you can practice your religion freely in this country and every other Christian majority country…
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this is a gross exaggeration. i know of christian majority countries where openly practicing islam will lead to harrassment, verbal and even physical assaults. and then there’s france where young muslim women are banned from wearing their hijaabs which are a religious obligation that they must meet when in the presence of non-relative males.
 
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r.gonzales:
actually, no. that’s not my issue. you made the claim that in the west religious bigotry is looked down upon and not tolerated. however, the plain reality is that this stuff occurs in the west under the guise of national security or in the case of france, in the name of secularism and prevention of hate crimes. i call b.s. especially given the fact that i know of individuals who i know personally who have been held at the border attempting entry into the states for upto 4 or more hours being interogated. two of these individuals were refused entry on baseless grounds and lame duck excuses like “you said you had $200 on you but you actually have less than that” when in fact, 1. in the 4+ hours they held him for questioning, no one had asked him how much money he had on him, and 2. he actually had more than $200 cash on him, plus credit and debit cards. the only obvious reasons behind their harrassment was that 1. they were muslim and 2. they had some sort of connection with saudi arabia (either they had visited there before or work there).

i also know of individuals who have been arrested and brought to trial unjustly for possessing certain lecture cassettes by scholars who the authorities thought was someone else. and then there’s that whole thing with bush and his unauthorized secret wiretaps… and that’s just in the states. in canada i know of a couple of cases where the government has imprisoned muslim individuals without charging them—or it could be that they have and have not disclosed that information (not even to the imprisoned individuals themselves).

i understand the concept of caution, but if this isn’t paranoia, then it’s definitely bordering on it.

this is a gross exaggeration. i know of christian majority countries where openly practicing islam will lead to harrassment, verbal and even physical assaults. and then there’s france where young muslim women are banned from wearing their hijaabs which are a religious obligation that they must meet when in the presence of non-relative males.
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Thats not the case indeed.
The current situation is the result of the terrorist attacks which came from fundamentalist islamic circles. It is not a harrassment against Moslims (they also reject acts of terrorism), but it is just a protective measure, which I fully condone.
And the situation in France is a reflection of secularism in general. The same girls you are talking about cannot display crosses with Jesus on their school outfits.
We are not in the war against Islam, read the Vatican statement on this, it is one of toleration and understanding. I think we should find ways to reconcile rather than split even more apart. We should find a common ground and go from there.
Tomas
 
Lyrics For Hulk Hogan’s Theme Song

"I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what’s right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya’ gotta take a stand, it don’t help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can’t let it slide,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what’s right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don’t take trouble for very long,
I got somethin’ deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what’s right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can’t let it slide,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what’s right, fight for your life!
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what’s right, fight for your life!"

👍
 
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tomaskovarik:
It is not a harrassment against Moslims (they also reject acts of terrorism), but it is just a protective measure, which I fully condone.
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when there is a legitimate reason for the questioning and interogating, then i would agree that it’s not harrassment, but when there is no other reason for it except that the person is arab or muslim, then it’s harrassment.
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tomaskovarik:
And the situation in France is a reflection of secularism in general. The same girls you are talking about cannot display crosses with Jesus on their school outfits.
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displaying crosses on school outfits is not a religious obligation. wearing the hijaab for a muslim woman, is. there’s no comparison.
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tomaskovarik:
read the Vatican statement on this
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the vatican is not the united states, now is it?
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

Brother Gonzales,

Shamefully that the Catholic has gone lost from the truth that they even see Vatican as the source of Truth. Vatican (the Pope) is only a man, chosen by men. Nobody can substitute Allah, and they should have known it.
Back to the dark history of Catholic, just in case all of the people here needs reminding:
  1. The killings of the pagans and the jews during the spread of Christianity.
  2. The Crusade tha cost a lot of lives. For your consideration, you may watch Kingdom of Heaven and see How good moslems treat non moslems. And this film is not made by moslems.
  3. The bloody murder of pagan and people they considered witches or warlocks in dark ages.
  4. The selling of letters to purify people which in turn give benefit to wealthy men. This gave rise to the Protestant Movement.
  5. The spread of Christianity to people in Asia by force, enslavement and imperialism.
  6. The extinction of traditional culture in many places, like Indian, Africa, and such. The Indian suffered so much and was near to extinction.
The greed of Gold, Glory and Gospel has given so many misery to this world. And I am talking about nothing but facts. Comparing to what you have done, Islam is much more peaceful.

I also want to address the question about Islamic Country and sharia law.
Sharia law is only applied to those guilty of stealing, murdering, and such. Why should you make fuss about that?
And about religious freedom in Saudi Arabia, for your information, Saudi Arabia is 100% moslems. So I should ask your motive to evangelize and start the culture imperialism by trying to Impose Christianity.

I have stated my case.
 
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Ortho:
State your position and I will tell you.
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My position, if you read my posts in this thread, is that I disagree with the the title of this thread: Islam supports religious freedom [more] than [Catholocism]. My posts give evidence that this title is not true.

Your previous posts admit as much.
 
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Ortho:
It’s also unfortunate that many in the West can’t look at the history of Christianity inside of history. For example, is the current treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim nations worse than the Christian treatment of Muslims and pagans in the past?

Is the Church tolerant of pagans? Was it tolerant in the past? How did it treat them in the past? How tolerant is the Church when it has the upper hand?

These questions should be put to all religions, and Christianity should not be exempt.

How were Muslims and pagans treated in Rome of the Middle Ages?
Click to expand...
Why is it anytime current Muslim abuses against other religions are brought up Muslims bring up past abuses such as the Inquisition or the Crusades? These events took place hundreds of years ago and their abuses have been repeatedly denounced by Catholic on this forum. In all fairness the Muslim members of this forum do denounce the most heinous abuses such as suicide bombings, however they continue to defend blatantly discriminatory practices that are taking place right now, not hundreds of years ago. One can don’t defend a current bad position by citing references of others who made the same mistake centuries ago but have subsequently learned from past mistakes. If you wish to reflect upon the mistakes of the past, please learn from them.

Peace,

George
 
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Ortho:
Laughter is good for us, and I approve. But it can also be used when one doesn’t have a real argument. Come on. Let’s hear more than laughter.
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I think others on this thread have made great arguements already.:clapping:

Mike
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

Brother George:
Why is it anytime current Muslim abuses against other religions are brought up Muslims bring up past abuses such as the Inquisition or the Crusades? These events took place hundreds of years ago and their abuses have been repeatedly denounced by Catholic on this forum. In all fairness the Muslim members of this forum do denounce the most heinous abuses such as suicide bombings, however they continue to defend blatantly discriminatory practices that are taking place right now, not hundreds of years ago. One can don’t defend a current bad position by citing references of others who made the same mistake centuries ago but have subsequently learned from past mistakes. If you wish to reflect upon the mistakes of the past, please learn from them.

Peace,

George​

The root of what happened today comes from the past. The imperialism, the culture banishment, the cruelty. For Catholics, it’s easy to forget it, they were the abusers, not the victims.
this life and time is interconnected. So many lies and cruelty were done by Catholics in the past and alas you said it’s not related at all to the current situation. It is. The hurt and bitterness was inherited from generation to generation. And then I will ask you. Who started the cruelty in the first place? Could you talk about what happened now without referring to the past?
And who said history cannot repeat itself? We had WWI but then we had WWII. So you are talking funny.
 
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TheProphet:
Shamefully that the Catholic has gone lost from the truth that they even see Vatican as the source of Truth. Vatican (the Pope) is only a man, chosen by men. Nobody can substitute Allah, and they should have known it.
Back to the dark history of Catholic, just in case all of the people here needs reminding:
  1. The killings of the pagans and the jews during the spread of Christianity.
  2. The Crusade tha cost a lot of lives. For your consideration, you may watch Kingdom of Heaven and see How good moslems treat non moslems. And this film is not made by moslems.
  3. The bloody murder of pagan and people they considered witches or warlocks in dark ages.
  4. The selling of letters to purify people which in turn give benefit to wealthy men. This gave rise to the Protestant Movement.
  5. The spread of Christianity to people in Asia by force, enslavement and imperialism.
  6. The extinction of traditional culture in many places, like Indian, Africa, and such. The Indian suffered so much and was near to extinction.
The greed of Gold, Glory and Gospel has given so many misery to this world. And I am talking about nothing but facts. Comparing to what you have done, Islam is much more peaceful.

I also want to address the question about Islamic Country and sharia law.
Sharia law is only applied to those guilty of stealing, murdering, and such. Why should you make fuss about that?
And about religious freedom in Saudi Arabia, for your information, Saudi Arabia is 100% moslems. So I should ask your motive to evangelize and start the culture imperialism by trying to Impose Christianity.

I have stated my case.
Click to expand...
The Vatican is not the source of truth. God is the source of truth. No Catholic believes otherwise. Yes, the pope is just a man as was Mohammed. Yes, the pope was chosen by his fellow cardinals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as is clearly stated in gospel. What evidence is there that Mohammed was chosen by anyone other than the words of Mohammed?

You realize that most of what you bring up can just as easily apply to Islam? Just as an example: The killings of the pagans and the Jews during the spread of Islam.

The Kingdom of Heaven was highly fictionalized! Do fifteen minutes of research and you will learn that. If Hollywood is your source of truth you have shamefully lost the truth. If this is your “case” you have stated it poorly!

“Comparing to what you have done, Islam is much more peaceful.” So what you are saying is that as Christians made some terrible mistakes in the past it is now OK for Muslims to repeat such abuses?

Peace,

George
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

Brother George:
Why is it anytime current Muslim abuses against other religions are brought up Muslims bring up past abuses such as the Inquisition or the Crusades? These events took place hundreds of years ago and their abuses have been repeatedly denounced by Catholic on this forum. In all fairness the Muslim members of this forum do denounce the most heinous abuses such as suicide bombings, however they continue to defend blatantly discriminatory practices that are taking place right now, not hundreds of years ago. One can don’t defend a current bad position by citing references of others who made the same mistake centuries ago but have subsequently learned from past mistakes. If you wish to reflect upon the mistakes of the past, please learn from them.

Peace,

George​

The root of what happened today comes from the past. The imperialism, the culture banishment, the cruelty. For Catholics, it’s easy to forget it, they were the abusers, not the victims.
this life and time is interconnected. So many lies and cruelty were done by Catholics in the past and alas you said it’s not related at all to the current situation. It is. The hurt and bitterness was inherited from generation to generation. And then I will ask you. Who started the cruelty in the first place? Could you talk about what happened now without referring to the past?
And who said history cannot repeat itself? We had WWI but then we had WWII. So you are talking funny.
Click to expand...
You are correct; the root of today does come from the past. It is the fact that modern Muslims have refused to learn from the past that concerns me. Yes, Catholic have been the abusers, I have not forgotten that fact, but can you tell me that Muslims have not been the abusers, or Jews or pagans? Sure the current situation is related, but only so far as current abuses are justified by the abuses of the past. Is this right or is this simply justification? Who started the cruelty is not as important as who will end it. Once again that question is used as a justification for current abuses. History will repeat itself over and over and over again until we learn! Will we learn from past atrocities or will we continue to use them to justify our sins?

Peace,

George
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

Brother George:
Why is it anytime current Muslim abuses against other religions are brought up Muslims bring up past abuses such as the Inquisition or the Crusades? These events took place hundreds of years ago and their abuses have been repeatedly denounced by Catholic on this forum. In all fairness the Muslim members of this forum do denounce the most heinous abuses such as suicide bombings, however they continue to defend blatantly discriminatory practices that are taking place right now, not hundreds of years ago. One can don’t defend a current bad position by citing references of others who made the same mistake centuries ago but have subsequently learned from past mistakes. If you wish to reflect upon the mistakes of the past, please learn from them.

Peace,

George​

The root of what happened today comes from the past. The imperialism, the culture banishment, the cruelty. For Catholics, it’s easy to forget it, they were the abusers, not the victims.
this life and time is interconnected. So many lies and cruelty were done by Catholics in the past and alas you said it’s not related at all to the current situation. It is. The hurt and bitterness was inherited from generation to generation. And then I will ask you. Who started the cruelty in the first place? Could you talk about what happened now without referring to the past?
And who said history cannot repeat itself? We had WWI but then we had WWII. So you are talking funny.
Click to expand...
TheProphet,

The Crusades were responses to Muslim aggression and proselytizing in Christian countries. We were trying to retake land which was stolen by Muslim invaders. The inquistions were operated by Spain, not the Catholic Church, and were in response to hundreds of years of Muslim rule in Spain and were the Spaniards trying to regain their Catholic identity due to the abuses of the Muslim rulers.

God bless,
 
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r.gonzales:
and then there’s france where young muslim women are banned from wearing their hijaabs which are a religious obligation that they must meet when in the presence of non-relative males.
Click to expand...
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r.gonzales:
displaying crosses on school outfits is not a religious obligation. wearing the hijaab for a muslim woman, is. there’s no comparison.
Click to expand...
No one is forcing Muslims to live in France. If Muslims don’t like it, they can leave and go live in a Muslim country.

Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws? Why dont they live in Muslim countries? Why do they immigrate to the west?
 
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discipleofJesus:
Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws? Why dont they live in Muslim countries? Why do they immigrate to the west?
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Ditto on this one. If Sharia is so much better than our laws, then why are Muslims here?
 
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shockerfan:
My position, if you read my posts in this thread, is that I disagree with the the title of this thread: Islam supports religious freedom [more] than [Catholocism]. My posts give evidence that this title is not true.

Your previous posts admit as much.
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In that case we do not agree.
 
George Waters:
Why is it anytime current Muslim abuses against other religions are brought up Muslims bring up past abuses such as the Inquisition or the Crusades? These events took place hundreds of years ago and their abuses have been repeatedly denounced by Catholic on this forum. In all fairness the Muslim members of this forum do denounce the most heinous abuses such as suicide bombings, however they continue to defend blatantly discriminatory practices that are taking place right now, not hundreds of years ago. One can don’t defend a current bad position by citing references of others who made the same mistake centuries ago but have subsequently learned from past mistakes. If you wish to reflect upon the mistakes of the past, please learn from them.

Peace,

George
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It is brought up because the thread is comparing the actions of one group against the actions of another. So, a historical perspective is valuable.
 
George Waters:
The Vatican is not the source of truth. God is the source of truth. No Catholic believes otherwise. Yes, the pope is just a man as was Mohammed. Yes, the pope was chosen by his fellow cardinals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as is clearly stated in gospel. What evidence is there that Mohammed was chosen by anyone other than the words of Mohammed?

You realize that most of what you bring up can just as easily apply to Islam? Just as an example: The killings of the pagans and the Jews during the spread of Islam.

The Kingdom of Heaven was highly fictionalized! Do fifteen minutes of research and you will learn that. If Hollywood is your source of truth you have shamefully lost the truth. If this is your “case” you have stated it poorly!

“Comparing to what you have done, Islam is much more peaceful.” So what you are saying is that as Christians made some terrible mistakes in the past it is now OK for Muslims to repeat such abuses?

Peace,

George
Click to expand...
What evidence is there that the Holy Spirit guides the selection of the pope? Evidence of religious beliefs is always an enlightening topic.
 
Semper Fi:
TheProphet,

The Crusades were responses to Muslim aggression and proselytizing in Christian countries. We were trying to retake land which was stolen by Muslim invaders. The inquistions were operated by Spain, not the Catholic Church, and were in response to hundreds of years of Muslim rule in Spain and were the Spaniards trying to regain their Catholic identity due to the abuses of the Muslim rulers.

God bless,
Click to expand...
Is sending an army to stop proselytizing tolerance?
 
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