Islam supports religious freedom than Catholic

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Liberalsaved:
Much of such things may be based loosely in islamic religion, but they are used more often as tools by those who would oppress and control.
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Oh really? Can you prove this? Which things are based loosely in Islam? That “In some Muslim countries, if a Muslim converts to a Christian, he is automatically sentenced to death”?

Well let me tell you, the Muslim countries that do this are following the Islamic religion in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death and the ones that don’t are not following it in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death.
 
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discipleofJesus:
Oh really? Can you prove this? Which things are based loosely in Islam? That “In some Muslim countries, if a Muslim converts to a Christian, he is automatically sentenced to death”?

Well let me tell you, the Muslim countries that do this are following the Islamic religion in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death and the ones that don’t are not following it in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death.
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It is true that Islam encouraged conversion by the sword. It is also true, however, that those leaders who still encourage this among their people today…and the education is often of such poor quality and availability to the common people in third world countries that they simply do what their leaders tell them…are not, in fact, religious at all, nor or those with the power to alter this as law. They are often tyrants who seek to use religion for their own ends.

The fact still remains, as horrible as their teachings may occasionally be, they are following them. What teachings were our ancestors following when they tortured Jews into converting to Christianity? Never underestimate the power of people with no beleifs to influence the beleifs of others.
 
By the way r.gonzales, you dodged my questions, so I will ask them again.

Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws?
Why dont they live in Muslim countries?
Why do they immigrate to the west?
 
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discipleofJesus:
By the way r.gonzales, you dodged my questions, so I will ask them again.

Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws?
Why dont they live in Muslim countries?
Why do they immigrate to the west?
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because they like mcdonalds hamburgers?
ha-ha. i sorry. i joke.
maybe not all muslims are the same, yes? some might be good people and not like to live in bad places with hard islam laws.
 
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USA_Carlos:
because they like mcdonalds hamburgers? ha-ha. i sorry. i joke.
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I may add : taco bell?? LOL
maybe not all muslims are the same, yes? some might be good people and not like to live in bad places with hard islam laws.
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How do yo know Islam law is hard? 😉
 
r.gonzales,

You should be ashamed of what your countrymen are doing to your own country in Saudi Arabia. Muslim converted Filipinos are actively spying on Christian Filipinos. The Arabs don’t give a jack about you especially if you are not westerners. Y’all may pray in the same mosque, but that’s where it ends. I don’t know about you, but if you are in a foreign country, we’ll have to stick together. Look at the Chinese in own country or around SE Asia, they stick together. They prosper and get discriminated on i.e Indonesia and Malaysia (mostly Muslim countries).
 
Cyber Knight:
I may add : taco bell?? LOL
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ha-ha!
Cyber Knight:
How do yo know Islam law is hard? 😉
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i dont know firsthand. but i think i hear on tv they like cut off a persons hand if they steal a loaf of bread of something. that is no good. but this is all in their koran. i think that is probably hard to learn all that. maybe? yes?
 
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discipleofJesus:
By the way r.gonzales, you dodged my questions, so I will ask them again.

Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws?
Why dont they live in Muslim countries?
Why do they immigrate to the west?
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I’m not R. Gonzales so don’t mind if I respond. Also please forgive me if my tone comnes across as hostile- I’m not very diplomatic yet. 😉
Why are Muslims living in the west anyway, if they believe Islamic laws are so good and better than western laws?
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First off, its a silly assumption, quite prevalent in BOTH Christian and Muslim circles to divide the world into “Christian” and “Moslem” spheres of influence. A little like the Cold War. And its this type of attitude that leads to situations that have been condemned on this thread- namely, the restriction of religious freedom in, for example, Saudi Arabia.

Now as to the question- do you not believe that God’s law regarding abortion is FAR superior to any silly law permitting it?

Now let say that the Western secularism, to which I find many (rightly so!) opposed to on these forums, let’s say that the government legislates a law saying that all Christians must perform abortions. Most of us would rather die (I hope!) than obey such an inhuman law. And why is that? It’s because Divine Law comes before and above any human law that contravenes it. Now the Sharia, based largely on the teaching of the Koran and the examples of the prophet, also legislates (as you probbaly know) Divine Law according to Muslims. Admittedly it is encompasses far more aspects of daily life than does our Christian Law. And Muslims are obligated to follow those just as we are obligated to follow the prescriptions of the Catholic religion.
Why dont they live in Muslim countries?
Why do they immigrate to the west?
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Same reason as everyone else. Economic oppotunities. Duh! When the Irish/Italian, etc. went to America and the prejudice evolved from being against them to all Catholics in general, what was the solution? Don’t emigrate? Or immigrate, but please don’t flaunt your religion here.

Sorry, this is not meant to be an apology for the Muslim postion. But some of it can apply to other situations as well.
 
Dear Ortho,

Having experienced the situation in Saudi, and being a non-Western immigrant,permit me to disagree with your assesment in that country. I don’t know where you got the idea that it is a big sham when it most certainly is NOT. In what we generally term the ‘Western enclaves’ 😉 and the surrounding areas, restriction is much less. However, the same cannot be said of Saudi as a whole, particularly if you are a non-Moslem and non-‘Westerner’. (I should say that, in fairness, muslim expats are treated only a little better). A friend of mine, returning from the Holy Land, brought a map of the world with him, which was torn at customs because it had the word ‘Kuneesat’ written in small at the bottom (he bought it at a monastery). This is one of the milder cases. As per my own experience, conversions were not “handled informally” but quite seriously. Really seriously. However, that is MY bit, yours may have been different.

BTW, I really enjoyed your statement
The Indians control the economy, and the Arabs control the government.
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Our imperialism is spreading all over the Middle East. We rule! 👍 😃
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

George.

You are correct; the root of today does come from the past. It is the fact that modern Muslims have refused to learn from the past that concerns me. Yes, Catholic have been the abusers, I have not forgotten that fact, but can you tell me that Muslims have not been the abusers, or Jews or pagans? Sure the current situation is related, but only so far as current abuses are justified by the abuses of the past. Is this right or is this simply justification? Who started the cruelty is not as important as who will end it. Once again that question is used as a justification for current abuses. History will repeat itself over and over and over again until we learn! Will we learn from past atrocities or will we continue to use them to justify our sins?

Peace,

George
Sometimes things cannot be undone. Or you may say you could resurrect all the Indians you killed? Or resurrect their cultures? Who said that it’s not important to remember who first start the cruelty? And what have the Catholic learned? Let me refreshed you again:
  1. During the First Spread of Christianity, Catholics killed pagans.
  2. During the the crusade, Catholic killed Moslems and Jews.
  3. During the Dark Ages, Catholic killed pagans and people accused as witches and warlocks.
  4. During the Nazi reign, the CATHOLICS in German supported Hitler.
    Actually, who needed to learn? And who said you have stopped all the cruelty, Catholics? See the spread of time from the first AD until recently.
Semper Fi,

TheProphet,

The Crusades were responses to Muslim aggression and proselytizing in Christian countries. We were trying to retake land which was stolen by Muslim invaders. The inquistions were operated by Spain, not the Catholic Church, and were in response to hundreds of years of Muslim rule in Spain and were the Spaniards trying to regain their Catholic identity due to the abuses of the Muslim rulers.

God bless,
And what did they do when they took back the land? Easy for you to say “Forget the cruelty” when you are the abuser. But when you are in turn abused (like the case of the crusade), you cried for justice. Shame on you. How many Moslems and JEWS were killed by that reconcuesta?

Both of you are talking funny. Instead of admitting that the history of Catholic UNTIL NOW is still bloodier than Islam, you keep on trying to negate the facts.
 
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tomaskovarik:
I have a very unorthodox feeling, namely that God’s Spirit can operate within other religions as well. It could be that Islam is another way, which contradicts what I wrote earlier, it is probably wrong, but it is a nagging feeling that I have had for some time.
Tomas
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Is it possible God does not operate according to the regulations of men? Is it possible we don’t understand what he is doing?
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

ometimes things cannot be undone. Or you may say you could resurrect all the Indians you killed? Or resurrect their cultures? Who said that it’s not important to remember who first start the cruelty? And what have the Catholic learned? Let me refreshed you again:
  1. During the First Spread of Christianity, Catholics killed pagans.
  2. During the the crusade, Catholic killed Moslems and Jews.
  3. During the Dark Ages, Catholic killed pagans and people accused as witches and warlocks.
  4. During the Nazi reign, the CATHOLICS in German supported Hitler.
    Actually, who needed to learn? And who said you have stopped all the cruelty, Catholics? See the spread of time from the first AD until recently.
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Islam can also be accused of all the things you accuse Catholicism of. If Islam had not conqured HALF of Christian territories by force THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A NEED FOR THE CRUSADES! Why can’t Muslims ever get that into their heads! You’ve been indoctrinated by so many lies, that you can’t see the truth if it stares you in the face. Where do you get the idea that all Catholics in Germany supported Hitler? Your knowledge of history is certainly biased to say the least.
And what did they do when they took back the land? Easy for you to say “Forget the cruelty” when you are the abuser. But when you are in turn abused (like the case of the crusade), you cried for justice. Shame on you. How many Moslems and JEWS were killed by that reconcuesta?
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Are you saying that Islam has never been an abuser?:rolleyes:
Both of you are talking funny. Instead of admitting that the history of Catholic UNTIL NOW is still bloodier than Islam, you keep on trying to negate the facts.
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We are not trying to negate anything! Come out of your glass bubble. There has never been a religion more bloodthirsty than Islam! Islam has never done anything by “conversion” , but by brutal force and oppression and it’s the biggest threat to the whole world today!
 
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discipleofJesus:
Oh really? Can you prove this? Which things are based loosely in Islam? That “In some Muslim countries, if a Muslim converts to a Christian, he is automatically sentenced to death”?

Well let me tell you, the Muslim countries that do this are following the Islamic religion in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death and the ones that don’t are not following it in sentencing the Muslim who converted to death.
Click to expand...
Which Muslim countries sentence a convert to death? I am aware of one. Do you know of others?

If there are no others, then by your logic they are not following the Islamic religion. If they are not following the Islaimic religion, then why blame Islam for what they do?
 
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Ortho:
Is it possible God does not operate according to the regulations of men? Is it possible we don’t understand what he is doing?
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You guys (like some Protestants) use the phrase “of men” pretty selectively I’ve noticed. Wasn’t Mohammed himself a man?
 
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USA_Carlos:
ha-ha!

i dont know firsthand. but i think i hear on tv they like cut off a persons hand if they steal a loaf of bread of something. that is no good. but this is all in their koran. i think that is probably hard to learn all that. maybe? yes?
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Can you tell us in which country a hand is cut off for stealing a loaf of bread?
 
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Ortho:
Can you tell us in which country a hand is cut off for stealing a loaf of bread?
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What the heck is your point? You know as well as everyone this stuff happens. A Muslim friend of mine himself told me they do this (and worse) in Saudi Arabia.
 
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AJV:
Dear Ortho,

Having experienced the situation in Saudi, and being a non-Western immigrant,permit me to disagree with your assesment in that country. I don’t know where you got the idea that it is a big sham when it most certainly is NOT. In what we generally term the ‘Western enclaves’ 😉 and the surrounding areas, restriction is much less. However, the same cannot be said of Saudi as a whole, particularly if you are a non-Moslem and non-‘Westerner’. (I should say that, in fairness, muslim expats are treated only a little better). A friend of mine, returning from the Holy Land, brought a map of the world with him, which was torn at customs because it had the word ‘Kuneesat’ written in small at the bottom (he bought it at a monastery). This is one of the milder cases. As per my own experience, conversions were not “handled informally” but quite seriously. Really seriously. However, that is MY bit, yours may have been different.

BTW, I really enjoyed your statement

Our imperialism is spreading all over the Middle East. We rule! 👍 😃
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AVJ,

I lived there for many years. Jeddah, Riyadh, Khobar. My remark about the sham regards the fact that the police know about the Christian services, yet do little to shut them down. They do arrest a few every year, but how many times did you really see a Saudi cop open his eyes and get out of his car?

I agree that the further out you go, the stricter it gets.

Coming in through custom is always a treat. I have had figurines of hands confiscated, yet other times I walked through with a bible which I said was a family treasure.

One time we ordered baseball caps for our softball team. They were stopped at customs. A guy went out there and asked why. The saudis acted a bit embarrassed and said he would have to come back when the particular customs inspector in question was on duty. So, our guy went back

The inspectyor was a Muttawa with the short thobe and no egal on his ghutra. He said if one wore a baseball cap, and looked up to heaven, the view was blocked by the peak of the cap, and therefore the caps were unIslamic.

The Indians do rule the Emirates. I suspect they will be ruling much more in the future. There are 4 to 5 million Indians in Saudi, they are far more skilled at everything than the Arabs, and they are not afraid of hard work. They will rule.
 
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TheProphet:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

George.

You are correct; the root of today does come from the past. It is the fact that modern Muslims have refused to learn from the past that concerns me. Yes, Catholic have been the abusers, I have not forgotten that fact, but can you tell me that Muslims have not been the abusers, or Jews or pagans? Sure the current situation is related, but only so far as current abuses are justified by the abuses of the past. Is this right or is this simply justification? Who started the cruelty is not as important as who will end it. Once again that question is used as a justification for current abuses. History will repeat itself over and over and over again until we learn! Will we learn from past atrocities or will we continue to use them to justify our sins?

Peace,

George
Sometimes things cannot be undone. Or you may say you could resurrect all the Indians you killed? Or resurrect their cultures? Who said that it’s not important to remember who first start the cruelty? And what have the Catholic learned? Let me refreshed you again:
  1. During the First Spread of Christianity, Catholics killed pagans.
  2. During the the crusade, Catholic killed Moslems and Jews.
  3. During the Dark Ages, Catholic killed pagans and people accused as witches and warlocks.
  4. During the Nazi reign, the CATHOLICS in German supported Hitler.
    Actually, who needed to learn? And who said you have stopped all the cruelty, Catholics? See the spread of time from the first AD until recently.
Semper Fi,

TheProphet,

The Crusades were responses to Muslim aggression and proselytizing in Christian countries. We were trying to retake land which was stolen by Muslim invaders. The inquistions were operated by Spain, not the Catholic Church, and were in response to hundreds of years of Muslim rule in Spain and were the Spaniards trying to regain their Catholic identity due to the abuses of the Muslim rulers.

God bless,
And what did they do when they took back the land? Easy for you to say “Forget the cruelty” when you are the abuser. But when you are in turn abused (like the case of the crusade), you cried for justice. Shame on you. How many Moslems and JEWS were killed by that reconcuesta?

Both of you are talking funny. Instead of admitting that the history of Catholic UNTIL NOW is still bloodier than Islam, you keep on trying to negate the facts.
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TheProphet,

Before you accuse me of killing Indians you should know my great-grandmother was full-blooded Cherokee! So don’t even…

As far as your first three points, you are correct. I have not denied any of this, but YOU continue to use it as justification for Muslims to commit the same crimes today. And as I stated earlier with the change of a few words the same could be said about Islam. 2) During the crusade, Muslims killed Catholics and Jews. See? Or do you wish to dispute this? I have not forgotten the cruelty; I have learned from it. Have you?

You want to talk about the Nazis? OK let’s! Hitler had two SS divisions made up entirely of Muslims! He did NOT have Catholic SS divisions. In fact many Catholic died in concentration camps. You should study your history before you even attempt to use such an ignorant accretion.

We ALL need to learn! Learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others and to QUIT JUSTIFING MODERN CRIMES WITH PAST EVENTS.

“Shame on you. How many Moslems and JEWS were killed by that reconcuesta?” How many CHRISTIANS and JEWS were killed by MUSLIMS during the conquest of Spain? Do you even study history?

It is not Semper Fi and I who are “talking funny” nor are we trying to negate the facts, that my friend is YOUR realm!
 
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Booklover,

Islam can also be accused of all the things you accuse Catholicism of. If Islam had not conqured HALF of Christian territories by force THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A NEED FOR THE CRUSADES! Why can’t Muslims ever get that into their heads! You’ve been indoctrinated by so many lies, that you can’t see the truth if it stares you in the face. Where do you get the idea that all Catholics in Germany supported Hitler? Your knowledge of history is certainly biased to say the least.​

If there were no Christian, there would still be Indians, Roman Pagans, clear? There would still be richness of Asian, African and Native American Culture.

Are you saying that Islam has never been an abuser?:rolleyes:​

Who said so? But provide the fact that the desctruction because of Islam is larger than what Catholics had done, if you can.

We are not trying to negate anything! Come out of your glass bubble. There has never been a religion more bloodthirsty than Islam! Islam has never done anything by “conversion” , but by brutal force and oppression and it’s the biggest threat to the whole world today!​

Huh, asked the roman pagans, the Indians, the Africans, the Asian, the people you, Catholics, burned at a stake just because you thought they were witches and warlocs? Lift your eyes from your book to see the TRUTH. Can you return back the cultures, the lives of so many people you destroyed and imperialized,Catholics?
 
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Ortho:
Which Muslim countries sentence a convert to death? I am aware of one. Do you know of others?

If there are no others, then by your logic they are not following the Islamic religion. If they are not following the Islaimic religion, then why blame Islam for what they do?
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I believe Pakistan also implements it. Also its seen more as a slight on the family, so throughout the Middle East, killings by individuals maty also take place.

The other countries in the Middle East have laws againstr Muslims converting. I don’t know what the punishment is though- I will check and see. I do know that converts are jailed in some of the more liberal states.

Also, Mr. Ortho, if you don’t mind me asking, what religion do you follow?
 
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